alexey Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Well, it seems that total financial collapse happens:Linkedy-link-link I do not it is quite valid to use the last 8 years of Republican rule to prove a Republican belief that Government is by definition incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I do not it is quite valid to use the last 8 years of Republican rule to prove a Republican belief that Government is by definition incompetent. Oh come on, that goes back at least to Thomas Jefferson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123310466514522309.html At this point funding Dem priorities doesn't seem like such a bad idea. Not all of them are good, of course, but whatchagonnado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Oh come on, that goes back at least to Thomas Jefferson. Do you have a supporting argument for this? Quotes? Anything? A quick search on Wiki shows this: "I hope we shall...crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoot Point Really Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I think very honestly none of us are thoroughly informed enough to spout such ignorance as "Let the market correct itself". You cannot compare this economic situation to anything post Great Depression so you may have to put your ideology aside for a moment....Even Republicans are proposing a massive stim bill here also, let us not forget that. Let's compare it to 1978... We're doing pretty well. Let the market correct itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Do you have a supporting argument for this? Quotes? Anything?A quick search on Wiki shows this: "The government which governs best, governs least." --Thomas Jefferson http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1993 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Utterly untrue.http://www.meltingpotproject.com/mpp/2009/01/save-us-regulation-man.html I think if you post a link to something to refute an opinion with a supposed fact, it should be more than just another opinion without even a signature next to it as to who wrote it. The problem as has been made unbelievably evident is that witho0ut regulation, this pesky thing called "human nature" creeps in. People are by and large greedy, and always will be unless forced to be otherwise. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I do not it is quite valid to use the last 8 years of Republican rule to prove a Republican belief that Government is by definition incompetent. *raises eyebrow* If you think that infrastructure "stimulus" that was passed three years ago will somehow be significantly different from infrastructure "stimulus" that's passed today, you need to Google how federal bureaucracy works. It has nothing to do with party label. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 "The government which governs best, governs least."--Thomas Jefferson A quick search on the Internet shows this quote attributed either to Thomas Paine or Henry David Thoreau's essay entitled Civil Disobedience published in 1849. http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1213 http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_quote_That_Government_is_best_which_governs_least edit: I see you updated your post with a reference as well. Interesting... I do not think it makes sense to discuss this without getting into specific works, views, and philosophies in question. I think a chance of a quality discussion on these matters taking place here is fairly remote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I think if you post a link to something to refute an opinion with a supposed fact, it should be more than just another opinion without even a signature next to it as to who wrote it.The problem as has been made unbelievably evident is that witho0ut regulation, this pesky thing called "human nature" creeps in. People are by and large greedy, and always will be unless forced to be otherwise. ~Bang The numbers in that link come from a professor at Stanford who crunched some numbers from the Federal Register. You can Google them yourself; they're online. That "pesky" human nature worked fine until Fannie and Freddie were ordered to buy loans that their greedy little selves were afraid would result in a net loss because the loans wouldn't be repaid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 *raises eyebrow*If you think that infrastructure "stimulus" that was passed three years ago will somehow be significantly different from infrastructure "stimulus" that's passed today, you need to Google how federal bureaucracy works. It has nothing to do with party label. HOPE! It matters who is in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 A quick search on the Internet shows this quote attributed either to Thomas Paine or Henry David Thoreau's essay entitled Civil Disobedience published in 1849.http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1213 http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_quote_That_Government_is_best_which_governs_least edit: I see you updated your post with a reference as well. Interesting... I do not think it makes sense to discuss this without getting into specific works, views, and philosophies in question. I think a chance of a quality discussion on these matters taking place here is fairly remote. Regardless, that belief has been around a lot longer than: the last 8 years of Republican rule to prove a Republican belief that Government is by definition incompetent. You act like EVIL W concocted it himself. He ain't that smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Regardless, that belief has been around a lot longer than:You act like EVIL W concocted it himself. He ain't that smart. I do not think it would be accurate to present these views in modern context without giving proper consideration to circumstances of their time. The government they are talking about it is a government of a different nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 One problem I have with a lot of the griping like the WSJ quote is that it seems to think money should only be spent to get new jobs and maintaining the ones we have is less important: "Another "stimulus" secret is that some $252 billion is for income-transfer payments -- that is, not investments that arguably help everyone, but cash or benefits to individuals for doing nothing at all. There's $81 billion for Medicaid, $36 billion for expanded unemployment benefits, $20 billion for food stamps, and $83 billion for the earned income credit for people who don't pay income tax. While some of that may be justified to help poorer Americans ride out the recession, they aren't job creators" 81 million for medicaid...do doctor's offices and hospitals currently getting money from medicaid not count as jobs? Hate to break it to ya, but even with Medicaid taking care of those patients is often a money loser. You think the doctors have trouble staying in business paying insurance, try taking away the pitance they get paid taking care of patients they are obligated to take care of. You think the hospital overcharges those with insurance now to make up for the uninsured...? Expaned unemployment, food stamps, and even the earned income tax credit...you think this money isn't spent? This money is imediately spent at a higher rate than any tax cut. Where is it spent? My guess is probably an employer business. What kills me is that many of these "stimulus" programs are really just allowing States to opperate as they are now without CUTTING programs and employees. Somehow, spending money to avoid losing jobs at this time is just not en vogue. WTH?:doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I do not think it would be accurate to present these views in modern context without giving proper consideration to circumstances of their time. The government they are talking about it is a government of different nature. Huh? Why then, throughout human history, has man searched for better government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 HOPE!It matters who is in charge. Really? Gosh, I'm sure you can point me towards some of the historical instances in which central planning has suddenly outperformed decentralized individualistic capitalism because of a change in the top 1% of bureaucracy. There must be so very many examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I do not think it would be accurate to present these views in modern context without giving proper consideration to circumstances of their time. The government they are talking about it is a government of a different nature. What in God's name...? This government is not different in any fundamental way from any other government of the past 50 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I do not think it would be accurate to present these views in modern context without giving proper consideration to circumstances of their time. The government they are talking about it is a government of different nature. The view has been around since the study of economics has been around. The view has allowed this country to go from nothing to the worlds greatest economic engine in the history of civilization in a very short period of time reletive to the other historically large economic powers. Why in the world would we want to change what has worked since the nation's founding? A 5 year (tops) recession doesnt change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deejaydana Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Really? Gosh, I'm sure you can point me towards some of the historical instances in which central planning has suddenly outperformed decentralized individualistic capitalism because of a change in the top 1% of bureaucracy. There must be so very many examples. Hey! It's working great in Cuba. No wait. I mean North Korea. Err. I mean Venezuela. Doh! Every American should be scared to death of central planning. Well, any motivated person that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 HOPE!It matters who is in charge. Pass the Kool Aid, you have had your share.Reality is that the President has less an affect than Congress. And this Congress, labeled as the do nothing Congress, is back. Doing nothing other than recycling failed Democratic policies of the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Huh?Why then, throughout human history, has man searched for better government? I am not sure what you are asking. Claim that people who fought in American Revolution fought against "big government" would be a misrepresentation, for example. Yet I am sure you can find plenty of quotes by prominent thinkers that sound like they support Republican ideas of our time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Really? Gosh, I'm sure you can point me towards some of the historical instances in which central planning has suddenly outperformed decentralized individualistic capitalism because of a change in the top 1% of bureaucracy. There must be so very many examples. The view has been around since the study of economics has been around. The view has allowed this country to go from nothing to the worlds greatest economic engine in the history of civilization in a very short period of time reletive to the other historically large economic powers. Why in the world would we want to change what has worked since the nation's founding?A 5 year (tops) recession doesnt change that. What does that have to do with government buying better windows from private companies and having them installed by American workers in order to save taxpayer money on heating costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Hey! It's working great in Cuba. No wait. I mean North Korea. Err. I mean Venezuela. Doh! Every American should be scared to death of central planning. Well, any motivated person that is.The problem with that is the younger generations have been pounded with these beliefs since Kindergarten. They are ingrained to a certain extent, in their thinking. The Govt owes me happiness. Not the pursuit of happiness, but happiness. This country was founded on you and I having the opportunity.....to succeed or fail. That was up to you and me. Nowadays, we have little leagues that don't keep score, Everybody is a winner. Failure is not you fault, it is the fault of those teaching/evaluating you. Hence why graduation standards are basically eighth-grade equivalence exams. College and a good paying job are rights, not something you have to work to attain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I am not sure what you are asking. Claim that people who fought in American Revolution fought against "big government" would be a misrepresentation, for example. Yet I am sure you can find plenty of quotes by prominent thinkers that sound like they support Republican ideas of our time. Dude, you are in such a partisan box that I'm surprised you're not labeling George Washington as a Democrat. This has nothing to do with political parties. Money doesn't care whether you have a D or an R next to your name. Money doesn't care whether or not you've spent the past eight years defending Bush. Money doesn't care whether or not you have an Obama t-shirt. All money cares about is what works, and the past 200 years have proven that what you're saying is fundamentally incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 What does that have to do with government buying better windows from private companies and having them installed by American workers in order to save taxpayer money on heating costs? Most of this page posted by myself, hubbs, gibbsfactor, deejaydana, and popeman is in response to your post #51. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.