Yet another example of why we are closer to the Lions than the Patriots

[elkabong82]

bingo! even as Old would concede...it's all been short-term thinking. I prefer to think of it as patchwork thinking.

And now that Vinny is in charge we do appear to be moving towards more long-term strategies, just as Califan pointed out and Oldfan quoted above this post. However all the pessimists, err, I mean "realists" (because apparently the only way to be real about something is to see it in a negative light to you guys) are already slamming Vinny after 1 season of actual accountability. Many of you are still hollering for Vinny to be fired. Yeah, that's worked real well in the past guys. Stuff doesn't work out perfectly immediately, so let's scrap it after 1 season and start all over again. You all love to bash Snyder for being so impatient, yet you all exhibit the same lack of patience. And spare me the "x amount of years since a Superbowl," rhetoric, cuz we're talking about the team NOW, not the team over the course of more than a decade with different players, coaches, etc.

This regime has Vinny essentially as GM and Zorn as HC, so let's just look at this current regime and their plan. Sticking to that, Vinny has, overall, gone with the plan most on here have screamed about. Sadly, some of you all would rather be right than give the this current regime more than 1 season. How many of you armchair GMs would have traded Rogers last season? Few want to trade him now. God forbid we actually learn a lesson from all that and give the current "GM" and head coach as much time. Nope, because that would require the one thing this fan base desperately lacks: patience. I said long before now that if the team did start focusing on the draft to build that most of you wouldn't have the patience to see it through. Just 1 season into it and I've been proven right. Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.

[Thinking Skins]

Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.

Quoted for freakin truth!

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I said long before now that if the team did start focusing on the draft to build that most of you wouldn't have the patience to see it through. Just 1 season into it and I've been proven right.

because we had one draft with a bunch of picks we are now somehow focused on building through the draft? focused teams dont trade picks for pete kendall, erasmus james, and jason taylor with draft picks. we have 4 picks in this years draft? that doesnt look like a team dedicated to the draft in my opinion.

[Oldfan]

because we had one draft with a bunch of picks we are now somehow focused on building through the draft? focused teams dont trade picks for pete kendall, erasmus james, and jason taylor with draft picks. we have 4 picks in this years draft? that doesnt look like a team dedicated to the draft in my opinion.

Only the Taylor trade could not be justified, IMO. Assuming they don't add picks this year, they still have used 14 picks in the two seasons.

I was opposed to the Taylor trade when it went down. 90% of the posters in this forum favored it, but you wouldn't know it from the posts blasting Vinny for it in hindsight.

[paintrain]

And now that Vinny is in charge we do appear to be moving towards more long-term strategies, just as Califan pointed out and Oldfan quoted above this post. However all the pessimists, err, I mean "realists" (because apparently the only way to be real about something is to see it in a negative light to you guys) are already slamming Vinny after 1 season of actual accountability. Many of you are still hollering for Vinny to be fired. Yeah, that's worked real well in the past guys. Stuff doesn't work out perfectly immediately, so let's scrap it after 1 season and start all over again. You all love to bash Snyder for being so impatient, yet you all exhibit the same lack of patience. And spare me the "x amount of years since a Superbowl," rhetoric, cuz we're talking about the team NOW, not the team over the course of more than a decade with different players, coaches, etc.

This regime has Vinny essentially as GM and Zorn as HC, so let's just look at this current regime and their plan. Sticking to that, Vinny has, overall, gone with the plan most on here have screamed about. Sadly, some of you all would rather be right than give the this current regime more than 1 season. How many of you armchair GMs would have traded Rogers last season? Few want to trade him now. God forbid we actually learn a lesson from all that and give the current "GM" and head coach as much time. Nope, because that would require the one thing this fan base desperately lacks: patience. I said long before now that if the team did start focusing on the draft to build that most of you wouldn't have the patience to see it through. Just 1 season into it and I've been proven right. Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.

I think what most fans are clamoring about with regards to Vinny is 'been there-done that-seen the movie-don't care for the sequel'. While Vinny hasn't been the GM for more than just last offseason, he is the only constant, besides mediocrity, in the Snyder era. He came to DC with questions (had the credentials but was not well respected in SF) and has done exactly nothing to dispel them. Who is our signature acquisition in his 10 years with the organization? What specific value has he brought?

It's not a matter of just one season of frustration and 'FIRE VINNY' but years of pathetic football, the same issues (lack of consistent play at QB, lack of a consistent passing game, lack of a pass rush, lack of defensive and special teams playmakers) that scream that something is wrong with the way we are acquiring players and has been for a long time.

Yes it's year one of Zornatto but it's 10 years of Snyderatto. We all are hoping for the best but expecting the worst based on recent data. All of the calls for Cowher, Holmgren, Shannahan, Gruden, etc. are not simply because people want change for the sake of change, they want a complete culture change. They want to see us respected on and off the field rather than the laughingstock we've become.

We've got a sleeping giant, but rather than stir the beast we keep feeding it valium. We want someone who knows how to build a winner, knows how to utilize Danny's big pockets wisely and who knows how an organization should function. Vinny has never shown us that he is that guy.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Only the Taylor trade could not be justified, IMO. Assuming they don't add picks this year, they still have used 14 picks in the two seasons.

I was opposed to the Taylor trade when it went down. 90% of the posters in this forum favored it, but you wouldn't know it from the posts blasting Vinny for it in hindsight.

14 picks in 2 seasons, 1 season was 10 of them. the year before that, according to elk, vinny wasnt even in charge, so that draft shouldnt even be considered part of "the plan". we can discuss all this nonsense all day and claim vinny was only in charge of certain years and certain drafts, but the results are all the same.

and you realize how embarrassing it will be for this organization if 9 of our 10 draft picks from 08 do not pan out, and the only one that does is a 7th round luck pick? lol

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

That's exactly why I've been asserting that Joe Gibbs 4 years actually set the franchise back 8 years. He left us with an old, stale, salary cap bloated roster that was lacking in elite players at any position.

:applause:

[Oldfan]

and you realize how embarrassing it will be for this organization if 9 of our 10 draft picks from 08 do not pan out, and the only one that does is a 7th round luck pick? lol

If that happens, it will be evidence of Vinny's incompetence and I'll join you in looking for a change. But, on first impression, the 2008 picks looked to me like the best group of raw talent I've seen in Skins colors in many years.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

If that happens, it will be evidence of Vinny's incompetence and I'll join you in looking for a change. But, on first impression, the 2008 picks looked to me like the best group of raw talent I've seen in Skins colors in many years.

i hope youre right. only time will tell.

[fansince62]

If that happens, it will be evidence of Vinny's incompetence and I'll join you in looking for a change. But, on first impression, the 2008 picks looked to me like the best group of raw talent I've seen in Skins colors in many years.

thank goodness raw talent doesn't include: physical condition, intelligence, commitment!

[Thinking Skins]

That's exactly why I've been asserting that Joe Gibbs 4 years actually set the franchise back 8 years. He left us with an old, stale, salary cap bloated roster that was lacking in elite players at any position. It's going to be at least a 4 year rebuild and with Cerrato in charge and unchecked it's not going to be pretty. While I am not writing off the 2nd round picks, I think it's safe to say that the '08 draft class has much to prove to avoid the 'disaster' label in a couple of years.

Now that you mention it, didn't Gibbs do the same thing to us when he retired the first time?

I don't think it'll be as hard to rebuild as last time (if you remember we were close with Norv to having this thing turned around in about 3 years the first time). I think it'll just take a few good drafts that come to truth. Last year may be the first one, but we need to see results on the field for it to count.

I'd like to see a similar draft (trading down for multiple picks) this year and getting talent along the OL and DL this draft.

To me its all about getting enough young hungry guys to compete for the roster spots, then we can save a nice group of core veterans leadership and build around that.

[TD Riggo]

Hehe, no we're not.

Lions 0 wins

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Redskins 8 wins

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Patriots 11 wins

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See...we're closer to the Patriots!

... and we're within three games with a brand new coach, and a brand new offense.

Some of you need to toughen up! Stop using Vinny as an excuse. He's no worse than probably at least half of the other "GM"s out there!

Do I believe that Vin and Dan always make the right decisions? Absolutely not. But they are hardly as bad as a lot of you make them out to be!

[SkinsFTW]

I said long before now that if the team did start focusing on the draft to build that most of you wouldn't have the patience to see it through. Just 1 season into it and I've been proven right. Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.

We lack patience?

How many years does it take Snyder/Cerrato to build a winning team? If they fail at the "Draft first" philosophy and decide to go to another philosophy due to their own incompetence should we be expected to show several more years of patience for that as well?

According to you we should just keep waiting and waiting to see if 2 clowns can pull their heads out of their asses while trying out different strategies every 3-4 years. Neither one has any history of doing it right, both have been at it here for a decade, but patience is the answer to all of this.

We all just expect things way too quickly. Wait another decade, maybe 2 or 3, they will get it right sooner or later.

[Gregpeck99]

The '08 Draft ultimately will rise or fall on the arm of Colt. Only another year to find out.

[Oldfan]

We lack patience?

How many years does it take Snyder/Cerrato to build a winning team? If they fail at the "Draft first" philosophy and decide to go to another philosophy due to their own incompetence should we be expected to show several more years of patience for that as well?:

Your question implies impatience since Dan and Vinny haven't yet failed at the draft-first method. When and if they do, we patient types will join you in griping about them.

[Rudechain]

And now that Vinny is in charge we do appear to be moving towards more long-term strategies, just as Califan pointed out and Oldfan quoted above this post. However all the pessimists, err, I mean "realists" (because apparently the only way to be real about something is to see it in a negative light to you guys) are already slamming Vinny after 1 season of actual accountability. Many of you are still hollering for Vinny to be fired. Yeah, that's worked real well in the past guys. Stuff doesn't work out perfectly immediately, so let's scrap it after 1 season and start all over again. You all love to bash Snyder for being so impatient, yet you all exhibit the same lack of patience. And spare me the "x amount of years since a Superbowl," rhetoric, cuz we're talking about the team NOW, not the team over the course of more than a decade with different players, coaches, etc.

This regime has Vinny essentially as GM and Zorn as HC, so let's just look at this current regime and their plan. Sticking to that, Vinny has, overall, gone with the plan most on here have screamed about. Sadly, some of you all would rather be right than give the this current regime more than 1 season. How many of you armchair GMs would have traded Rogers last season? Few want to trade him now. God forbid we actually learn a lesson from all that and give the current "GM" and head coach as much time. Nope, because that would require the one thing this fan base desperately lacks: patience. I said long before now that if the team did start focusing on the draft to build that most of you wouldn't have the patience to see it through. Just 1 season into it and I've been proven right. Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.

You said it brother. Rome was not built in a day and neither is a sustainable competitive NFL franchise.

[BAFGA]

Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.

Long term plans are nice. Matt Millen had long term plans. See how those turned out? The Redskins might have a long term plan (but probably not) but I don't trust Vinny with that plan. Especially one he created. I wouldn't trust him managing a Subway restaurant, much less any sort of long term NFL plan.

[Oldfan]

Long term plans are nice. Matt Millen had long term plans. See how those turned out? The Redskins might have a long term plan (but probably not) but I don't trust Vinny with that plan. Especially one he created. I wouldn't trust him managing a Subway restaurant, much less any sort of long term NFL plan.

Why the distrust for Vinny? He has only been the virtual GM for a year.

[Thinking Skins]

Your question implies impatience since Dan and Vinny haven't yet failed at the draft-first method. When and if they do, we patient types will join you in griping about them.

Exactly. Some of us (including me) have had a problem with Vinny and co. for not focusing on the draft. Now that he is, I'm happy that he is doing so, and I'm focused not just on Vinny but also on our scouting department and guys like Scott Campbell who I've heard some real positive things about.

Here's a link to a thread I started last year about Scott Campbell and how he really impressed me, including being the driving force behind the Falcons drafting Brett Favre.

The guy who originally told me about S. Campbell was Atlanta Skins Fan.

This combination of course suggests a horrific outcome: impulsively overpaying for overrated, flashy offensive players ... which is what you get when you triangulate these core assumptions. Brandon Lloyd, Randle El, TJ Duckett are obvious outcomes. On the defensive side of the ball, we see Archuleta and Carter.

But, if this outcome is so obvious, why did the Redskins do so much better in 2004-2005 (Marcus Washington, Shawn Springs, Santana Moss, etc.), as opposed to 2006, in acquiring players from other NFL teams? Could it be that the toxic triangulation of incompetence in pro player acquisition was violently disrupted ... by talented pro scouting?

The free-agent crew acquired prior to the 2004-2005 seasons was scouted under the direction of Scott'>http://www.redskins.com/news/mediaguide/MG04-Staff.pdf"]Scott Campbell, then Redskins Director of Pro Personnel. But, on May 23, 2005, the Redskins made'>http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=7353"]made Campbell the Director of College Scouting and promoted Louis Riddick to Director of Pro Personnel.

Suddenly the picture comes into focus. If we assume that Vinny Cerrato and Joe Gibbs on a good day add zero to pro player scouting, then the team's only chance for success rests with the director of pro personnel. The formula is roughly:

[Competence of Director of Pro Personnel] x [snyder Spending] = Outcome

Now, much has been written about how Gregg Williams lobbied for Archuleta, and so on. But, coaches coach. When they watch film, they watch film prepared for them by the scouting department. Guys like Archuleta and Lloyd can assemble tremendous highlight reels, and it's the job of the pro scouts to see past the highlights to the weaknesses ... to analyze the balance ... and present the balance to people like Gregg Williams. If Gregg Williams sees an unbalanced presentation, making Archuleta look like a world-beater, his enthusiasm is not entirely his fault.

The timing suggests that the radical plunge between 2004/2005 and 2006 talent acquisitions has resulted from the change from Scott Campbell to Louis Riddick. The evidential, of course, is circumstantial.

Then last year, Riggo-toni added to what ASF said:

Ok, here goes....

In 2004, when Scott Campbell was running our pro scouting dept., we got some of the best bargains in free agents since free agency started (though some honorable mention should be given to Cerrato/Mendes/Snyder in '99 for landing Andy Heck, Keith Sims, Larry Centers and Marco Coleman). We got Washington, Griffin, and Springs - the cornerstones of our '04 defense. Our only flop was Barrow, and that was because of an unforeseeable injury. Our late day draft picks, on the other hand, failed miserably. Same pattern on a smaller scale in 05 - the Moss for Coles trade and Rabach, while White, Nemo, et al flopped. Then Campbell and Roddick traded places (kudos to ASF for the original research on this - and pardon me my friend for stealing some of your thunder here). Our pro pickups under Roddick's eye were mostly busts (Lloyd & Arch), but as the head of college scouting Campbell finally made the second day of our draft worthwhile, landing starting DTs Golston and Montgomery, as well as picking up McIntosh in the 2nd. Again this year he found a diamond in the rough in H.B. Blades, though Sartz and Palmer were busts. So....could it be time to promote Campbell over Vinny to GM, and let him put together a new scouting department. Personally I'd rather have Depaul as our GM, but I wonder if Campbell would respond well to the new responsibilities and hire talented subordinates in much the same way Savage has done in Cleveland. He seems to have a discerning eye for both pro and college talent. Thoughts??

And Here, Riggo-toni analyzes our drafts

We can look further into this and see that Riddick has since been fired and Campbell promoted as possible evidence that maybe ASF, Riggo-toni and I were on to something.

[Flycoach]

Good move by NE, but it wouldn't have worked here as long as Vinny was around.

[Oldfan]

Thinking Skins --- Some of us (including me) have had a problem with Vinny and co. for not focusing on the draft.

While we agree that patience is in order, I think the impatience of many fans stems from the kind of thinking that caused you to write the line quoted.

It wasn't "Vinny and Co." responsible for not focusing on the draft. By word and deed, Joe Gibbs showed that the idea was his. Vinny has been used as a scapegoat for those reluctant to lay blame on a Redskins icon.

[Gregpeck99]

I agree totally with OLDFAN.