cowpoke fans wishful thinking

[flashback]

Art,

Here are Ramsey’s “adjusted” numbers. All I did was throw out the games vs. Jax and the first Dallas game.

Att: 225

Comp: 117

Yds: 1539

%: 52

TD: 9

Int: 6

YPA: 6.8

Rat: 76.1

This does give Patty a QB rating that is 10 points higher than the Cross-eyed Crooner. Your point that the numbers are not actually similar is conceded. However, there are other similarities outlined earlier in the thread, most of them by Rabidfan. My original point was that “these 2 teams QB situations are remarkably similar” (I looked it up:)). Yet while Cowboys fans are looking at Griese, Lucas, Testaverde, just about anybody else with a pulse (Tony Romo sits to pee is the new QB of the future ), Redskins fans are already counting their chickens with Ramsey. That’s fine. You don’t need commission, make your own decisions, that’s your prerogatiiiiiiiiiiiiive.:thumbsup:

[ChrisFul]

I dont get why skins fans think QC or Hutch are such trash, but yet Ramsey is a savior. Hutch was a rookie last year and he looked like, well, a rookie. Carter isn't NEAR as bad as you skins like to think he is, just look at his statline when he got pulled...he was right about where a young QB with only a handful of starts should have been...his yardage totals were good, his completion percentage was decent (and was higher than McNabb or Vicks), and his TD-INT ratio was near 50-50 and had an overall QB rating of 73 or so. Yeah, thats terrible Ramsey wasn't a whole hell of a lot better than either one of them. Now, im not saying that i wouldnt rather have Ramsey on my team than Chad or QC, because i would, but the difference in them isn't as great as you'd like to think.

Of course, we'll see what this all means on the field. Ramsey's 2nd year, Hutch's 2nd year, (or if its Carter..) Carter's 3rd season after two half-seasons of starting. The field will be pretty even, as neither team has much at RB, both have good 1-3 recievers, and both have improved offensive lines.

[Art]

FB,

The reason we're counting on Ramsey is because he displayed something no other QB in the Redskins uniform has displayed in quite some time. The ability to make the "special" play. Look at our final game against you. Ramsey rolled across his body and threw a perfect pass some 50 yards in the air, again, rolling against his grain. Earlier, against Philly, the toss he fit into Doering was either insanity or a sign of a special quality. But, despite the hope that the flashes are real, every single Redskin fan is aware that in pinning our hopes on Ramsey we are taking a calculated gamble that he can come through. If he fails, we fail. It's really simple. He's just a guy who appears to be very much further along the scale of possible productive players than what you have.

In Ramsey we have the hope of something better. The hope of a special find. The hope of greatness. He may or may not be this. We have the possible discovery ahead of us that he's Gus Frerotte with a southern, instead of Pennsylvanian accent. Where you are openly looking for any hunk of meat to hold the fort you are essentially making the concession that you don't have the same hopes, and the reality is, the guys you seek are probably not even the player our backup is, and our backup is a dog .

Chris,

The reason we, as Skins fans, join the world of fans throughout the globe, both of American football and all other sports in thinking QC or Hutch are such trash is because, ask Flashback, you guys are openly looking for Lucas, or Testaverde, or Griese to play for you. QC is such dog meat he was summarily benched in favor of a guy who'd not even been playing football in years.

Ramsey was a whole hell of a lot better than either of your guys and Ramsey was so running a very sophisticated, QB driven offense in which he had a delayed learning curve due to a 16 day holdout in training camp. Essentially he played in 6.5 games and he surpassed Carter's second year performance. I'd be more than happy to compare Carter's second year with Ramsey's second year as well when Ramsey's second year is over. Or, we could look at Carter's rookie year, and then his trip to the bench if we really want to judge where he is as a player .

Hutch has a long way to go. He may be ok, but he needs at least another year to sit and watch and learn and practice and hone his rusty skills before you'll know much more about him than you do now. All you know now about Hutchinson is Ray Lucas isn't a terrible option. That's a lot, and not a good lot, to know.

[ChrisFul]

Originally posted by Art

Ramsey was a whole hell of a lot better than either of your guys and Ramsey was so running a very sophisticated, QB driven offense in which he had a delayed learning curve due to a 16 day holdout in training camp. Essentially he played in 6.5 games and he surpassed Carter's second year performance.

Hutch has a long way to go. He may be ok, but he needs at least another year to sit and watch and learn and practice and hone his rusty skills before you'll know much more about him than you do now. All you know now about Hutchinson is Ray Lucas isn't a terrible option. That's a lot, and not a good lot, to know. [/b]

Art, look at Ramsey's numbers and compare them to those of Carter or Hutchinson, and then TELL ME AGAIN how Ramsey was sooooooo much better.

Ramsey 117 227 51.5 1539 9TDs 8Ints 71.8

Carter 125 221 56.6 1465 7TDs 8Ints 72.3

Hutch 127 250 50.8 1555 7TDs 8Ints 66.3

Now explain to me again how Ramsey was SOOOO much better? The only stat he has an edge in is TD-INT ratio, and Carter, who is such trash by your standards, actually had a higer QB rating!

Carter got benched because JJ and Coslett had a hard-on for Hutch, and were looking for an excuse to dump him. Nothing more. Also, you say that both these guys suck so bad that we are looking into bringing in a vet QB? All the latest news out of Dallas says that Bill is going to war with what we have and isn't looking to bring in a vet after all.

[DIESEL TROLL]

HEY FLASH!!!! YYA GOTTA UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S A VERY PERSONAL MATTER WHEN IT COMES TO THE COWPUKES..........AND IF I GOTTA EXPLAIN IT ANY FURTHER....?!?!?!!!??? ;)

[Brave]

Originally posted by flashback

Y'know, its funny, I looked at this thread and I thought to myself, "Its wierd that these guys are so down on Chad Hutchinson, but they have no questions about Patrick Ramsey"

C'mon flashback, you know the deal. This is a Skin board. It's the offseason. We're all filled with hope and confidence about the upcoming season.

And we're all pretty big homers around here, too. :laugh:

[Art]

Chris,

Again, you are pointing to Carter's second season to compare with Ramsey's first. Carter's second year as an NFL player as compared to Ramsey's first in the league after a holdout that slowed his development. You are talking about Carter, who took the majority of the snaps from March until he was benched to prepare for the lead role, versus Ramsey who at times had to throw on the side with a Japanese receiver because he was fourth on the chart and was so far behind everyone else.

And DESPITE this, Ramsey, as a rookie, had more yards, more touchdowns, and actually IMPROVED as compared to Carter who had all the starter perks and was benched for extreme suckdom. To be fair, it's probably reasonable to realize that YOUR second string and best QB who was outperformed by our rookie QB is not still on equal footing in any way. When you factor in that Ramsey threw two interceptions in relief when he entered two games to throw one hail mary in each, it further leads one to wonder why you are even TRYING to defender Carter in his second year against Ramsey.

Here's what Carter did as a rookie, however, which is an interesting comparison with both Hutch and Ramsey:

90 176 51.1 1072 5 TDs 7 INTs 63

I'm liking the advantages I have here.

When you look at Hutchinson, you have a different comparison. In nine games Hutchinson managed the numbers you provided. In what amounted to 6.5 games, Ramsey managed his. Let's do what we can't do and prorate those numbers out over 16 games simply for illustrative and not meaningful reasons.

Over 16 games Hutchinson's stats would have been along the lines of:

226 444 50.8 2764 12 TDs 14 INS 66.3

This versus Ramsey's 16 game projection (calculated by taking 6.5 appearances throwing out two hail mary tosses):

288 553 3788 52 22 TDs 15 INTs 76

Perhaps this puts their actual production into a view you can appreciate. Perhaps not. But as I've explained to Flashback and am more than happy to explain to you, the reason Ramsey was SOOOO much better than Hutchinson is because in took Hutchinson NINE games to do less than what Ramsey did in 6.5 games. If that's a ratio that signals the future then the Redskins are going to have a tremendous advantage until you realize the difference.

While I recognize the folly of breaking out stats and projecting them over a full season when I know so much can change within the season to alter the numbers, the fact remains that Ramsey was stunningly better than Hutch. The only way you lessen that difference is to continue to think what your guy can do in nine full games as a starter which was less than our guy did in five games as a starter and two as a heavily used reserve is somehow uplifting.

It just goes to show that for a typical Cowboy fan yearning for something to be different or even comparable is not only a good way to appear crazy, but is also a sweet place to hide from the harsh truth .

[ChrisFul]

Originally posted by Art

Chris,

Again, you are pointing to Carter's second season to compare with Ramsey's first. Carter's second year as an NFL player as compared to Ramsey's first in the league after a holdout that slowed his development. You are talking about Carter, who took the majority of the snaps from March until he was benched to prepare for the lead role, versus Ramsey who at times had to throw on the side with a Japanese receiver because he was fourth on the chart and was so far behind everyone else.

And DESPITE this, Ramsey, as a rookie, had more yards, more touchdowns, and actually IMPROVED as compared to Carter who had all the starter perks and was benched for extreme suckdom. To be fair, it's probably reasonable to realize that YOUR second string and best QB who was outperformed by our rookie QB is not still on equal footing in any way. When you factor in that Ramsey threw two interceptions in relief when he entered two games to throw one hail mary in each, it further leads one to wonder why you are even TRYING to defender Carter in his second year against Ramsey.

Here's what Carter did as a rookie, however, which is an interesting comparison with both Hutch and Ramsey:

90 176 51.1 1072 5 TDs 7 INTs 63

I'm liking the advantages I have here.

When you look at Hutchinson, you have a different comparison. In nine games Hutchinson managed the numbers you provided. In what amounted to 6.5 games, Ramsey managed his. Let's do what we can't do and prorate those numbers out over 16 games simply for illustrative and not meaningful reasons.

Over 16 games Hutchinson's stats would have been along the lines of:

226 444 50.8 2764 12 TDs 14 INS 66.3

This versus Ramsey's 16 game projection (calculated by taking 6.5 appearances throwing out two hail mary tosses):

288 553 3788 52 22 TDs 15 INTs 76

Perhaps this puts their actual production into a view you can appreciate. Perhaps not. But as I've explained to Flashback and am more than happy to explain to you, the reason Ramsey was SOOOO much better than Hutchinson is because in took Hutchinson NINE games to do less than what Ramsey did in 6.5 games. If that's a ratio that signals the future then the Redskins are going to have a tremendous advantage until you realize the difference.

While I recognize the folly of breaking out stats and projecting them over a full season when I know so much can change within the season to alter the numbers, the fact remains that Ramsey was stunningly better than Hutch. The only way you lessen that difference is to continue to think what your guy can do in nine full games as a starter which was less than our guy did in five games as a starter and two as a heavily used reserve is somehow uplifting.

It just goes to show that for a typical Cowboy fan yearning for something to be different or even comparable is not only a good way to appear crazy, but is also a sweet place to hide from the harsh truth .

Art, I realize I am comparing Carters' 2nd season to Ramsey's 1st, but you said "Ramsey was better LAST year" than Carter or Hutch. Im comparing their stats from the same season. As for the stat projections, stat projections don't always work, because it assumes consistent production from a player game in, game out. Something rookies like Hutch and Ramsey aren't usually known for...especially at the QB Position. Had Ramsey started all 16 games, I daresay he had a few 3 or 4 INT games lurking about, like most rookies...and maybe a few games where he plays lights out. Same goes for Chad. Its hard to predict. All i know is, looking at the numbers, Ramsey and Hutch's body of work last year don't look all that different.

Extreme suckdom? Lots of QBs have had 4-INT games. Happens several times each season. Until that point, Quincy was on a roll, averaging a TD per game and less than an INT per game, 210 yards per contest. Art, i wasn't trying to say i'm happier with QC or Hutch than i would be with Ramsey, in fact i even said I WASNT in my first post, but your condescending attitude and thinly veiled jabs are quite offensive. Why is it that whenever a Cowboy fan tries to post and have a discussion, you go into attack mode? We don't do that to skin fans on our board....lighten up, sheesh. Are you that miserable that you get your kicks from pissing off Cowboy fans, even when they are trying to have a decent discussion?

[flashback]

So now he's "stunningly" better? :laugh:

Art, if your only criterion for a starting QB is that he must outperform a former minor league pitcher who goes 2-7, then congratulations. You've got your man.

I could point out that Ramsey's numbers over 16 games would have put him somewhere in the neighborhood of Shane Matthews and Rodney Peete, but that would be pointless, right? Since it was his rookie year, and you've added Thomas and Coles and Taylor and all those 2nd and 3rd string RBs, right?

And Chris, Art is just having a little fun. Look on the bright side. If he wasn't in here pissing you off, he could be playing Quake obsessively and reading the Anarchist's Cookbook, and that wouldn't be good for anybody.

[Art]

Chris,

I do generally like p!ssing off Cowboy fans. I will start a dozen posts this offseason just to rile you boys up, because it amuses me to watch you guys flail away. Here, though I didn't start the thread, I had to endure both YOU and Flashback actually attempting to make nearly equal Ramsey and Hutchinson because their numbers, in total, were somewhat similar. Yet, neither of you touched on or even seemed to care that to even get close to Ramsey's numbers Hutchinson had to play 2.5 more games, which, by definition, means they were not only not all that similar -- a point Flashback kindly agreed with -- but the reasons we're happier with Ramsey than you may be with Hutchinson may be because our rookie wasn't that similar to yours.

But, at no point in my reply did I attack you. I tore down your comparisons. I addressed how they weren't apt. I did so without any aspersions against you. In closing I wrote what is a generic feeling when discussing things with a Cowboy fan. Reality is less important than the star on the helmet. If you want to, as Flashback has, appreciate how nine games to do worse than another guy did in 6.5 is not a comparison you are going to win with, then feel free. You didn't do that. You actually DEFENDED your position by expanding it out, completely ignoring the evidence to the contrary.

I wrote it was folly to do seasonal extrapolations for players who don't play a full season, but if one WERE to do so, while admitting the folly of it (as I said) it clearly distinguishes why one group may be hopeful their QB is a possible savior and why another group may be looking at Ray Lucas. Just maybe.

Either way though, you can expect throughout the offseason for me to jab at you boys because it's just more fun than it should be. Sometimes I will even do a jab I may not necessarily believe because I enjoy watching the flailing. But, I'm a special case .

If you want to avoid such conversations in the future it's very easy. Realize that after you speak, and a person speaks back, that it's impolite to pretend nothing he said matters and continue on your merry way with your initial thrust. It's even more impolite to pretend when I bother to break down what you said and address it in a careful, even respectful way, that you're being attacked. But, the person with the lesser argument generally has to express a similar frustration at the conversation if he's unwilling to concede a point during it.

[shawn]

wow, this thread is pretty amusing. I agree that Ramsey has at this point more potential than both of Dallas's QBs. though in measurables Ramsey and Hutch are pretty close. Hutch hadn't played football in 4 years. that is enough to push you back in your level of play no matter how good you were in college.

besides the numbers most times don't portray everything, I think the Cowboys don't need a superior performance from the QB position to succeed. That's not what they are pinning their success on. I think they have taken a different model towards their possible success than the skins. The skins are going the offensive route and taken an offensive model that relies heavily on the QB. They have to have a QB that performs to succeed. everything is pinned on him. and as many of the skins here are saying, as goes ramsey so will the skins

the cowboys having so many needs seems to have taken a different route, some what typical of a Parcells team. they are going to rely on the running game and defense and need solid play from the QB to be successful.

at the end of the year Ramsey is going to have better stats than any QB who is going to play in dallas no matter whom that QB may be (well almost any QB). Ramsey is going to play in a pass happy offense and a team built around offense. Dallas' scheme is going to be relying heavily on defense and strong running game which doesn't emphasize QB play.

now to the point of having both QBs improve over the course of the year last year there is no doubt that both did. Ramsey did better simply because he made a transition going from College to Pros, work with a good QB coach and play in a pass happy offense. Chad came from baseball and had to transition to football and get his feet wet again.

His pocket awareness alone was comical the first few weeks he started since he had none. He improved as time went by, and his play and progress was greatly effected by lack of consistant play from the line. By the end of the year it seemed he had shaken off some of the rust and was a little more aware in the pocket and when given a little time was able to make plays.