Jump to content
Washington Football Team Logo
Extremeskins

Obama’s tax plan and the redistribution of wealth


alexey

Recommended Posts

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/10/14/obamas-tax-plan-and-the-redistribution-of-wealth/

Want to set a conservative’s hair on fire? Just mention redistribution of wealth and watch the fireworks. It happened Sunday when Barack Obama was canvassing a neighborhood in Toledo, Ohio.

Fox News cameras were there and captured the conversation (which is now all over the Web) between a self-employed plumber named Joe Wurzelbacher and Obama.

More taxes?

Wurzelbacher explained that by working hard (10-12 hours a day) he was in a position to buy a business. If he bought a truck and expanded the business, he wondered if his success would be greeted by a penalty in the form of higher taxes.

“Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn’t it?” Wurzlebacher asked.

“It’s not that I want to punish your success,” Obama explained. “I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they’ve got a chance for success too. My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody … I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”

The common good

Spread the wealth around. That can mean many things. It could mean a rising tide lifts all boats. But it could also mean government taking from one group of people (the people who earned it) and giving it to those who did not.

This is what Obama detractors are saying his tax plan is all about. And many are wondering why the McCain campaign isn’t being more vocal about this. They contend Obama’s policy proposals are damning enough. Forget Bill Ayers, they say, go after his policy.

....

there's more if you follow the link

I am really hoping that this issue gets tracktion. I think this is another "trap" conversation that Obama is looking forward to having. It's about time somebody started dismantling this whole "socialism" bull.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/10/14/obamas-tax-plan-and-the-redistribution-of-wealth/

I am really hoping that this issue gets tracktion. I think this is another "trap" conversation that Obama is looking forward to having. It's about time somebody started dismantling this whole "socialism" bull.

I know, I hate all this socialism crap too. I wish they would stop taking my tax dollars I pay and handing out to incompetent corporations that lack the skill and work ethics to make it on their own. :2cents:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know, I hate all this socialism crap too. I wish they would stop taking my tax dollars I pay and handing out to incompetent corporations that lack the skill and work ethics to make it on their own. :2cents:

Yeah, and that whole state owning means of production thing is pretty stupid too.

Just yesterday on CSPAN I heard a "motivational speaker" trying to misrepresent government regulation as central planning. There's so much confusion out there... I think simply clearing up some basic fundamental confusions will bump Obama up at least another 5% nationwide ;) After having my share of "socialism" conversations here on ES I am actually very excited about that possibilty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know, I hate all this socialism crap too. I wish they would stop taking my tax dollars I pay and handing out to incompetent corporations that lack the skill and work ethics to make it on their own. :2cents:

Socialism is a read herring label. The wealthy have seen their tax rate drop in half over the last three decades. Drop by two thirds over the last five decades. Before anybody crys any rivers for the wealthiest Americans you should understand that the wealthiest Americans pay a significantly smaller percentage of their earnings to taxes than do the middle, middle class.

The wealthy never had it so good since 1980, especially under Bush.

There is a redistribution of wealth going on and it's been going on to the wealthy now for three decades. In 1980 the wealthiest 1% of this country owned 8% of all the wealth. Today we own 20%. Why is this. Because we take advantage of people who think all governemnt taxes are bad, rather than focusing on them as a necessary, important, and irriversable process of modern life. People who intellectually shut down when you actually get down to who is paying what, allows the folks who don't shut down to tilt the process their way.

Socialism indeed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WOW!!!!!

Where are the calls to see the whole transcript? Or see the unedited version?

There were some MAJOR rough cuts.

When Sara Palin rambles for 10 mins we hear "Show the unfiltered version!", when they cut (roughly) a quick conversation that's all there is....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know, I hate all this socialism crap too. I wish they would stop taking my tax dollars I pay and handing out to incompetent corporations that lack the skill and work ethics to make it on their own. :2cents:

I guess it didnt stick the last time i told you that raising the corporate tax rate is just going to raise prices for everyone.

Do you really believe that "corporations are evil"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heres a longer transcript...

As he made his way down the street, Obama was barraged by questions about the economy, mortgages, and taxes. This was perhaps the best kind of debate prep for him, because not all of the conversations were easygoing. One man in particular questioned Obama’s tax plan, telling him that he is about to buy a company that makes more than $250,000 a year.

“Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn’t it?” the man asked.

Obama responded by telling the voter that his business would get a 50% tax credit for health care, but that his taxes will go up from 36% to 39%.

“I want to give all these folks who are bus drivers, teachers, auto workers who make less, I want to give them a tax cut,” Obama explained.

The man wasn’t convinced, telling Obama that he has been a plumber for 15 years and doesn’t believe that he should be taxed more.

After explaining that the tax rate would be the same as under Bill Clinton and that 95% of Americans make less than $250,000, Obama made one last pitch to the voter.

“I’m gonna cut taxes a little bit more for the folks who are most in need and for the 5% of the folks who are doing very well - even though they’ve been working hard and I appreciate that – I just want to make sure they’re paying a little bit more in order to pay for those other tax cuts,” Obama said.

“It’s not that I want to punish your success – I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you – that they’ve got a chance at success too.”

As Obama left, he told the crowd, “I’ve gotta go prepare for this debate, but that was pretty good practice right there!”

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/12/politics/fromtheroad/entry4516350.shtml

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess it didnt stick the last time i told you that raising the corporate tax rate is just going to raise prices for everyone.

Do you really believe that "corporations are evil"?

No

Do you beleive they are all good?

Corporations belive in PROFIT. They are not good, nor evil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess it didnt stick the last time i told you that raising the corporate tax rate is just going to raise prices for everyone.

Do you really believe that "corporations are evil"?

Not evil just greedy. They will attempt to monopolize when allowed, attempt to concentrate wealth at the very top levels of management. It's what they are supposed do. It is up to the Gov. to regulate these tendencies. Lack of regulation results in pure capitalism, which is only good for a very few.

I care less about taxation of corporations and more about regulation of monopolistic practices. No corporation should ever be allowed to become so large and control such a percentage of the market that the US Gov. must bail them out if they are in trouble, or our whole economy could fail. To many mergers allowed, and to much influence in just a few companies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you really believe that "corporations are evil"?

I think it is evil to hand 4 billion dollars of tax cuts to the oil companies after a decade of record profits, likely due to market coersion; while you are still taxing the milk a welfaire family buys to feed their kids.

I do think it's evil to give huge honking tax cuts to people who are doing great and ignore the folks who have been hurt the most by the deregulation economies especially under Bush.

I believe that an economy which is 80% based on consumer spending, might be interested in keeping a financially strong middle class capable of affording higher education for their kids while living indoors and under a safety net of health insurance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Before anybody crys any rivers for the wealthiest Americans you should understand that the wealthiest Americans pay a significantly smaller percentage of their earnings to taxes than do the middle, middle class.

This is one of those things that I am hoping will come up. Obama is actually for stopping income redistribution - upward income redistribution.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is one of those things that I am hoping will come up. Obama is actually for stopping income redistribution - upward income redistribution.

Yep it's insane..

Warren Buffet complained that he paid a 17.7% tax rate on his $46 million of taxable income in 2006, while his employees paid an average 32.9% tax rate (his receptionist's tax rate was 30%).

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/06/warren-buffet-p.html

Here is a more comprehensive link..

Also from 1932 through 1980; the lowest top tax rate on the wealtiest Americans income was 63% and that was in 1932-35.. Today that top rate is at 35% and capital gains is less than half of that...

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How many jobs did Warren Buffet's secretary create?

Most of them.... 80% of our economy is consumer driven. The vast majority of that spending comes from the middle class. Buffet's secretary makes about 100k, which puts her firmly in the middle class.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most of them.... 80% of our economy is consumer driven. The vast majority of that spending comes from the middle class. Buffet's secretary makes about 100k, which puts her firmly in the middle class.

Both people were taxed... She paid 32k and he paid 8.1M or so in taxes... Nobody was given money for free. His taxes paid for 8,000 or so Federal Employees who all paid 32k in taxes... She paid for 1 Federal employee who didn't pay taxes, but will receive a tax credit from Barack Obama under his tax plan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is one of those things that I am hoping will come up. Obama is actually for stopping income redistribution - upward income redistribution.

QTF.jpg

The rich should pay their fair share of taxes, Obama is trying to make sure that happens, and others say "they shouldn't pay their fair share because it makes stuff more expensive". I have to ask which is fair? 1) for the middle class to carry the tax burden and have cheap products while the rich pay less of a percentage and hide in tax shelters or 2) have the rich pay their share and reduce the burden on the middle class who will then have to pay more for products. The second actually sounds more fair but the reality is that its a trick either way.

What's really interesting is the question was asked "are corporations evil" and while the question may be baiting I think the answer is actually pretty clear in that if a company is only interested in profits at the expense of the consumer and employee and will readjust the costs of their products in order to avoid paying taxes themselves (i.e. shifting the burden back to the customer) in order to protect their bottom line then I'd say yes they are evil in that they have been corrupted by greed as they want to maintain their standard of profit while someone else carries their tax burden. However, if a company does not act in this way then I would not say they are evil on those counts.

What I still find boggling is just how much doubt many Conservatives express in the government while at the same time extending nearly endless trust to corporations that are motivated by profit alone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No

Do you beleive they are all good?

Corporations belive in PROFIT. They are not good, nor evil.

Yes, i believe they are good. They create jobs and fuel our economy. They bring products and services to the market place. They allow you to have access to food and medicine and entertainment and most of the things you use on a day to day basis.

Not evil just greedy. They will attempt to monopolize when allowed, attempt to concentrate wealth at the very top levels of management. It's what they are supposed do. It is up to the Gov. to regulate these tendencies. Lack of regulation results in pure capitalism, which is only good for a very few.

I care less about taxation of corporations and more about regulation of monopolistic practices. No corporation should ever be allowed to become so large and control such a percentage of the market that the US Gov. must bail them out if they are in trouble, or our whole economy could fail. To many mergers allowed, and to much influence in just a few companies.

I disagree that capitalism is only good for a very few. The rest of your post focuses on the VERY few companies in this country that can act similar to a monopoly, and totally forgets about the literally hundreds of thousands of corporations in this company that act like they should.

I think it is evil to hand 4 billion dollars of tax cuts to the oil companies after a decade of record profits, likely due to market coersion; while you are still taxing the milk a welfaire family buys to feed their kids.

I do think it's evil to give huge honking tax cuts to people who are doing great and ignore the folks who have been hurt the most by the deregulation economies especially under Bush.

I believe that an economy which is 80% based on consumer spending, might be interested in keeping a financially strong middle class capable of affording higher education for their kids while living indoors and under a safety net of health insurance.

Its real easy to think "Corporation" = "Oil Company." I agree, the oil companies dont need tax breaks. But mom and pop on the corner running a hardware store dont need their taxes raised, and everyone forgets about them because when they hear "Corporation" they think "ExxonMobil" just like you illustrate in your last paragraph.

And further, if corporate taxes go up, so does the price of that milk the welfare family buys to feed the kids. Im astounded that people cant make that short logical jump.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both people were taxed... She paid 32k and he paid 8.1M or so in taxes... Nobody was given money for free. His taxes paid for 8,000 or so Federal Employees who all paid 32k in taxes... She paid for 1 Federal employee who didn't pay taxes, but will receive a tax credit from Barack Obama under his tax plan.

See now you're getting confused by the numbers and are ignoring the percentages, this is how people are able to mislead with statistics because he still only paid 17% while she paid 32% of her income. In other words he worked until about the first week in February to start making money and she worked until the end of April. Now you tell me, how is that fair?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its real easy to think "Corporation" = "Oil Company." I agree, the oil companies dont need tax breaks. But mom and pop on the corner running a hardware store dont need their taxes raised, and everyone forgets about them because when they hear "Corporation" they think "ExxonMobil" just like you illustrate in your last paragraph.

And you want us to think that mom and pop are making over $250,000 a year running their "corporation" when you know they are squeaking by like the rest of us, and this is the manipulation that is being perpetuated by the GOP, when it is not mom and pop who are receiving the tax breaks but instead the multi-billion dollar corporations that are pushing for the reduction in their tax percentage so they can increase profits for themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

See now you're getting confused by the numbers and are ignoring the percentages, this is how people are able to mislead with statistics because he still only paid 17% while she paid 32% of her income. In other words he worked until about the first week in February to start making money and she worked until the end of April. Now you tell me, how is that fair?

Because he made money that went to a lot of other people earning income and creating wealth and paying taxes and spending in that "consumer economy" that JMS was talking about... She gets the same protections as he does, but he paid 250 times more than she did. Also, you aren't talking about the people who don't pay taxes at all...

Actually, since Buffett hired her... Buffett should be credited for every penny she spends that contributes to our economy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because he made money that went to a lot of other people earning income and creating wealth and paying taxes and spending in that "consumer economy" that JMS was talking about... She gets the same protections as he does, but he paid 250 times more than she did. Also, you aren't talking about the people who don't pay taxes at all...

She doesn't get the same protections, she only made 100k, that's middle class, what's more is that you say "he made money that went to other people" I'm sorry but that's not "making money" that's part of the cost of business, "making money" is what you bring home after your business expenses are taken out and he still only paid 17% when she paid 32%

Actually, since Buffett hired her... Buffett should be credited for every penny she spends that contributes to our economy.

Now this is non-sense because because by this logic he is responsible for every penny that his employees make, but you neglect to mention the fact that every penny that Buffet makes is due to the people who work for HIM, in that if they weren't there then he'd not make his money, so they should be credited for every penny he spends.:doh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the gov't needs more money to run.

they tax us and make it impossible to file a correct return

the gov't needs more money for more people t run it.

They make the code 400 pages long so they hire more people.

The private sector also creates an entire industry around it.

Its now no different than the housing and IT industry.

We need it or 300,000 people will be out of a job. A flat tax or sales tax would make sense, but Obama just wants to create another 30k jobs that we can then pay for also.

So we pay 5% lets say to maintain the people to take our 30%.

So they can make it harder and allow us to now pay 8% to maintain them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree that capitalism is only good for a very few. The rest of your post focuses on the VERY few companies in this country that can act similar to a monopoly, and totally forgets about the literally hundreds of thousands of corporations in this company that act like they should.

While you are right my post focuses on the few, those few have been allowed to merge and merge over and over again until the have enough power to cripple our economy. To me improved regulation has moved beyond a monetary issue, it's now a national security issue. If we keep allowing corporations to become so dominant that if they fail we HAVE to bail them out with taxpayer funds then it will just keep happening over and over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's probably not fair to say corporations are evil, they are a necessary function of capitalism. And capitalism is so engrained in our society that they are absolutely needed for us to function. They are just that good at their function. But capitalism so integrated into our society often legitimizes some forms of wealth over others and some goods are seen as less good or inefficient while some bads are seen as necessary.

The system is all encompassing, and participation in capitalism is not really much of a choice any more. Whether it's overall positive of negative... well the benefits are huge amounts of material wealth creation, and quick development of technology, the negatives are environmental destruction, and social decay. Nothing's perfect. But I do believe that there will be a point where wealth is so vast and resources are so widely available that capitalism may not be as valuable anymore (tech growth outpaces resource consumption). OR we destroy our natural resources without the ability to get them back and we go extinct (resource consumption outpaces tech growth). We either move on from capitalism to something more sustainable or we die. But I don't think we can make that transition now or in any future I see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And you want us to think that mom and pop are making over $250,000 a year running their "corporation" when you know they are squeaking by like the rest of us, and this is the manipulation that is being perpetuated by the GOP, when it is not mom and pop who are receiving the tax breaks but instead the multi-billion dollar corporations that are pushing for the reduction in their tax percentage so they can increase profits for themselves.

The $250,000 number is on personal income tax.

Hint: Personal tax and corporates taxes arent the same thing. If mom and pop run a business and that business makes a profit, their taxes will be higher under Obama than McCain. If they are struggling to get by now, their store will probably fold.

Ad you didnt even mention my point about higher corporate taxes meaning higher prices for everyone. You just cherry picked 1/3 of my post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...