Poll: Bugel: An Honest Assessment of His Coaching Today

[McD5]

"I wish I could go to a team for one week with the best offensive line, or the team with the best scheme, and switch places with their back and see how others would do in this system," Portis said, sitting on a couch the other day at Redskins Park. "I get a lot of touches with nowhere to run. I could see if I got all those touches and had some lanes, but there's nine or 10 men in the box.

"His decisiveness as a runner between the tackles seems a little bit hampered by the blocking schemes up front," said Sundquist, who drafted Portis and eventually traded him for all-pro cornerback Champ Bailey. "Especially under [former coach Joe] Gibbs, they weren't running a zone blocking scheme. As I watch Washington now, he gets kind of caught up in there and tends to start dancing, and he loses that lower power that he has. I just see more two- or three-yard runs out of Clinton than I ever did here. Even his bad runs here, they felt like they were four or five."

Our beloved Joe Bugel. Innovator of the Hogs. Arguably one of the top o-line coaches in history during his first tenure. Much like Gibbs 1--a superstar.

He has gone through a lot personally over the last few years, with the unfortunate events inside his family. And for that, we must empathize with, and support him 100%. He has my respect as a man.

But Bugel 2, as a coach....removing all personal bias and like for him personally.....is he getting the job done?

The discussion may be moot.....if we don't improve on the line this season, the chances of this being his last are probably 90% or better.

But as an O-line coach....how has his performance been during this second stint?

Has he given Portis what he deserves? Has he put him in the best position to succeed? Has he coached anyone up to play above their natural talent level?

Has he updated his coaching technique, a criticism against Gibbs 2, to adapt to the modern NFL? Zone blocking Joe?

Did he, as most fans on this board did, realize that Jansen had lost a step even prior to his injury last season? And then, upon that realization....did he do enough to address that situation?

Did he stand up during the draft this season....and say "Hey, you aren't drafting 3 receivers in the second round......we need some line help?"

Is he giving our qbs enough time to throw the ball?

While we love him as a man, and respect him for being a primary part of our Superbowl successes......if his name was John Smith, as opposed to Joe Bugel......how would you rate the job he has done over the last few seasons....and the job he is doing now?

[Hunter_R]

I don't know. If he actually thinks the current line is good, then he might just be in a bit over his head.

[ciscofan]

I'm not emotionally attached to Buges like others. I fall more in the middle of the two choices, but lean more towards him being successful. Considering what the team has gone through with injuries and getting a guy like Stephon Heyer to perform adequately, I think he has done well.

I do think its time for another guy though. He has helped installed the Gibbs running game. So why not go out after this season and get a younger guy with a more fresh perspective get more out of the line.

[McD5]

I don't know. If he actually thinks the current line is good, then he might just be in a bit over his head.

Yeah....I kind of believe, like with Gibbs 2, the game is passing him by.

[brandymac27]

I didn't vote b/c I would pick somewhere in the middle if that makes any sense. I do think he's doing the best that he can given the circumstances.

[Soup]

Don't forget last year where half the line was out. Bugel is a landmark and i hope he stays with the skins forever.

[kleese]

For us fans, it's really, really hard to judge Buges, or Gibbs for that matter. No matter what my eyes see right now, my heart still sees them in their glory. I can't distinguish the two.

In the end for Gibbs, he was a shell of the coach that we knew and loved in the 80's. BUT, he still did a REALLY, REALLY good job of getting pride back in association with the Redskins. And hey, we made the playoffs at a significantly higher rate under Gibbs than we did under anyone since, well....Gibbs!

Buges is in the same boat. I think he favors the veteran guys and I think those guys love him. But is he the same coach? Probably not. But I don't know. And I'm not sure I care.

[McD5]

For us fans, it's really, really hard to judge Buges, or Gibbs for that matter. No matter what my eyes see right now, my heart still sees them in their glory. I can't distinguish the two.

In the end for Gibbs, he was a shell of the coach that we knew and loved in the 80's. BUT, he still did a REALLY, REALLY good job of getting pride back in association with the Redskins. And hey, we made the playoffs at a significantly higher rate under Gibbs than we did under anyone since, well....Gibbs!

Buges is in the same boat. I think he favors the veteran guys and I think those guys love him. But is he the same coach? Probably not. But I don't know. And I'm not sure I care.

I agree with your sentiments. But knowing how big of a fan you are.....you should, and I am sure, do care about wins and losses.

Is he motivating the O-line? They didn't look very motivated last week. Are they playing for him? Do they, Portis and the others, buy into his system?

Do you think he has asked for us to draft linemen....and others have just decided to go in a different direction and overrule him?

[SoCalSkins]

He is the future interim head coach of the Skins.

[brandymac27]

I agree with your sentiments. But knowing how big of a fan you are.....you should, and I am sure, do care about wins and losses.

Is he motivating the O-line? They didn't look very motivated last week. Are they playing for him? Do they, Portis and the others, buy into his system?

Do you think he has asked for us to draft linemen....and others have just decided to go in a different direction and overrule him?

You would think he's addressed the issue of drafting linemen. Of course, nobody knows for sure, but I would bet that he has at least brought this issue up. I know he is partial to the vets, but part of him being successful means that he must also be realistic as well. And the fact that our o-line isn't aging very gracefully should tell him, and others, it's time to address the lines.

[FunkedUp]

The evidence is clearly mixed. On the plus side, it sure appears he has brought Samuels back from the depths of medocrity after the Kim Helton era. Samuels has over the past seasons playing to his potential and is one of the elite LT in the league. Also, if such claoms have credibility, Bugel's player sure seem bonded and have their and their coaches back.

One the other hand he has yet to develop a new solid starter on the line outside of one third round pick. Hayer could emerge or he could just prove to be a valuable versatile back-up. I think you are seeing other veteran starters pretty much maintaining what their previous performances. I think it is misguided to suggest resources are not being committed to the O-line. Every started was a very high redskin draft pick or a premium free agent. With the back-ups the current stategy is not working.

Lower round draft picks have not been developing into even serviceable back-ups and we have had to rely on scrap heap veterans. This has obviously burned us in our last two playoff appearances. It sure looks like Bugal isn't successfully developing young red chip players.

Also, I have to admit, Bugel lost me a bit when he truly through Ramsey under the bus early in Gibbs 1. I found it so odd and out of character for a Gibb's coach to do that.

Overall, I am not 100% convinced Bugel is really who Zorn wants their. Bugel certainly has more senority and probably a bit more security and a pipline to club management than Zorn does. Personally, I think you pick the coach and you HAVE to give him the ability to pick his staff - especially on his side of the ball. Mixed messages and uncertainty in accountability are poison in an organization.

[McD5]

He is the future interim head coach of the Skins.

Interesting. You are the first person I have seen that suggests this.

Are you serious? Or is this just shock value?

Thanks for the input.

[bubba9497]

http://www.washtimes.com/news/2008/sep/12/joe-bugel-presses-on-after-daughters-death/

Click link for entire article

'Skins' Bugel goes on after daughter's death

Bob Cohn

Friday, September 12, 2008

When he coached the Phoenix Cardinals in the early 1990s, Joe Bugel bestowed high praise on a player with the acronym, "LTG," which stood for Legitimate Tough Guy. If Bugel himself didn't qualify for the tag before, few would dispute he does now. He is demonstrating his toughness in ways most people can't fathom or imagine.

Bugel, the Washington Redskins' 68-year-old offensive line coach, and his wife, Brenda, lost a daughter to a rare form of bone cancer Aug. 21. Holly Bugel died at the family home in Arizona on a Thursday, literally in her mother's arms, a week after her 36th birthday. The funeral was the next day.

On Saturday, the Redskins had a preseason game in Charlotte, N.C., and Bugel, transported to and from Arizona on team owner Dan Snyder's private jet, returned to his team. His linemen are his second family.

"He's still coaching us hard, just like he's done in the past," offensive tackle Chris Samuels said.

Said guard Pete Kendall: "He still seems to have the same passion. And he still seems to catch nearly every mistake. He strikes me as, remarkably, the same guy, which is almost unbelievable given what he's been through."

Inside, of course, Bugel is not the same guy. Absent the same circumstances, it's difficult to presume or surmise what he and his family have endured. As offensive tackle Jon Jansen, who has two young daughters, said, "I don't know what to say about it because I can't even imagine it happening."

A boisterous and upbeat man during normal times, Bugel in January discussed Holly's worsening condition, which led to the amputation of her left arm a few weeks before Christmas. He marveled at her spirit and courage and said he believed she would somehow survive her battle with osteosarcoma despite nearly impossible odds. During training camp, he still summoned the resolve to talk about it.

But now he can't. Although he said this week when he takes long walks he thinks of her constantly, his emotions are too raw to discuss the subject for public consumption or even much in private.

Not that opening up about pain and loss ever would come easily to Bugel, who was born in Pittsburgh at the end of the Great Depression.

"Buges is old school," Kendall said. "I don't think the touchy-feely, sitting-around-and-talking-about-it is something he wants to share."

[SoCalSkins]

Interesting. You are the first person I have seen that suggests this.

Are you serious? Or is this just shock value?

Thanks for the input.

I honestly think this team under Buges would win more games than under Zorn. He has head coaching experience and the players would play for him IMO. He did a decent job for a horrible Arizona team.

If the season gets out of hand, which I am hoping it doesn't, I can see Zorn quitting under the pressure without much resistance from Dan.

[TheLongshot]

Lower round draft picks have not been developing into even serviceable back-ups and we have had to rely on scrap heap veterans. This has obviously burned us in our last two playoff appearances. It sure looks like Bugal isn't successfully developing young red chip players.

It isn't like he's had a lot to work with. Before this year, he had three drafted players with the highest round being 5th. It is hard to develop those guys, because there isn't a lot of space to keep raw o-linemen around long enough for them to develop into something. You almost have to show something immediately to stick around any amount of time.

Personally, I think he's done a fine job, particularly last year when he had to work with a rookie FA and a retread tackle at guard.

Jason

[FunkedUp]

It isn't like he's had a lot to work with. Before this year, he had three drafted players with the highest round being 5th. It is hard to develop those guys, because there isn't a lot of space to keep raw o-linemen around long enough for them to develop into something. You almost have to show something immediately to stick around any amount of time.

Personally, I think he's done a fine job, particularly last year when he had to work with a rookie FA and a retread tackle at guard.

Jason

Yes it is hard to displace guys like a one legged Corey Raymer. Now look at the Redskins secondary. I think that is a group that actually has done a very good job developing young red chip players (Torrence, Dougherty, etc.) into real contributors. The D-line coaches have also done a better job, with arguably less resources. Players like Golston, Montgomery, Evans, Wilson all really helping the team. In fact I think the only other postion group on the Redskins that has failed as miserably in developing players is the WR group. (IN that case we have pissed away major resources on FA, BC draft picks, and trades as well as not developing any red chip youngsters)

I am certainly of the mind that the Skins would be better served devoting more roud 1 through 3 draft picks on linemen. But I still don't think you can give Bugel a pass for developing almost no red chip players.

Even if we draft a Blue Chip O-lineman in each of the next two drafts, we are still going to need to another two red chip type of talents get developed (outside of Hayer.) I hope whoever is the O-line coach can do the job.

[elkabong82]

2004: Skins #21 rush yds, 18th least sacks allowed, CP 1300+ rushing

2005: Skins #7 rush yds, 10th sacks allowed, CP 1500+ rushing

2006: Skins #4 rush yds, 3rd sacks allowed, Betts 1100+ rushing in 9 GS

2007: Skins #12 rush yds, 13th sacks allowed (no right side of line), CP 1200+ rush

I don't see where Buges has been the problem. The OL coach has his guys block in accordance with the coaches scheme. Just because CP hasn't been as great here as he was in Denver doesn't mean the problem has been mainly the OL.

Sundquist tries to fault Gibbs for not using a zone blocking scheme. Nowhere does he mention that zone blocking isn't conducive to his style offense. CP blew up his first years in Denver, but I can't stand how everyone acts like just because he didn't put up similar numbers here it means this is the wrong system and that he isn't as good. Gibbs' offense wasn't set up for the quick strike, long runs. It was set-up for short, grind it out runs.

You may not think CP belonged in that system, but is that based off of him having better stats in Denver alone? Because it can't be based off him performing poorly, or not good, in Gibbs' system, cuz he still put up numbers, he even broke the franchise rushing yards record in '05. CP has had great success in Gibbs system, and has been the second best RB Gibbs has had, maybe the best in another season or two.

How many other RBs recently have gone to a different system and still put up solid numbers for as many seasons as CP has? Few.

Back to the main topic, the stats show the OL has done well since Buges got his hands on it.

[illone]

He's up and down for me. At the end of the day I doubt he has much say on what the FO does on draft day.

As far as coaching, I think the guys believe in him and he knows how to get the most out of them, but there hasn't been an infusion of talent on either side of the ball in some time (lines). Rabach was a backup before coming here, and Thomas/Jansen/Kendall are not getting any younger or faster.

At the end of the day coaching can only get you so far. Players have to play.

[corrupt3d]

I think he's great at developing players and putting the best OL on the field.

Now, it most likely comes down to: do we have the best players to field a good OL.

[TheLongshot]

Yes it is hard to displace guys like a one legged Corey Raymer. Now look at the Redskins secondary. I think that is a group that actually has done a very good job developing young red chip players (Torrence, Dougherty, etc.) into real contributors. The D-line coaches have also done a better job, with arguably less resources. Players like Golston, Montgomery, Evans, Wilson all really helping the team. In fact I think the only other postion group on the Redskins that has failed as miserably in developing players is the WR group. (IN that case we have pissed away major resources on FA, BC draft picks, and trades as well as not developing any red chip youngsters)

I am certainly of the mind that the Skins would be better served devoting more roud 1 through 3 draft picks on linemen. But I still don't think you can give Bugel a pass for developing almost no red chip players.

Even if we draft a Blue Chip O-lineman in each of the next two drafts, we are still going to need to another two red chip type of talents get developed (outside of Hayer.) I hope whoever is the O-line coach can do the job.

The problem with young guys and the offensive line is that their job is to protect the franchise in the starting QB. You'd hate to put in a guy who isn't quite ready for prime time and have that guy get your QB creamed.

To be honest, I don't think there was a strong need to draft an O-Lineman high until last year. Fact is, there is a lot of bucks invested in the starters and unless someone is really dogging it, those guys are not going anywhere.

Personally, I think we are in decent shape as far as a youth movement goes. The next guy who will probably be replaced, Kendall, already has a guy playing behind them. Heyer has managed to win the starting job for the time being and things will get better once Thomas and him play with each other for a while. We also have a couple of promising undrafted guys in Crummey and Brown. But, Samuels and Thomas are still playing at a high level and probably won't need to be replaced for at least a couple more years.

Jason

[McD5]

but I can't stand how everyone acts like just because he didn't put up similar numbers here it means this is the wrong system and that he isn't as good.

You may not think CP belonged in that system, but is that based off of him having better stats in Denver alone? Because it can't be based off him performing poorly, or not good, in Gibbs' system, cuz he still put up numbers, he even broke the franchise rushing yards record in '05.

Thanks for the input, and you make some good points.

However, at least in this case, it isn't posters "acting like....". These are Portis' own words.

When he says that occasionally he wishes he was on a team "with the best offensive line, or a better scheme", he in insinuating displeasure with something.

It could be with the o-line players themselves. It could be a shot at Vinny for not drafting those positions. It could be a shot at JC and our lack of a passing game.....it could be at the receivers, also contributing to the lack of a passing game....or it could be at the blocking scheme, and Bugel.

And while the stats do tell part of the story--by no means do they tell the entire story.

Basically, we have had two seasons of middle of the pack rushing yardage and sacks........and two exceptional seasons.

But rushing yards alone.....without emphasizing the number of rushing attempts can be deceiving. We run a lot more than most, so that has to be discounted.

Add in the scout that drafted him, and his criticisms of the blocking schemes we are using, and it brings up a few questions.

It just strikes me as interesting. I wonder who, or what, he is most displeased with.

[McD5]

When the first man hits him, Clinton Portis is left to wonder what it's like for other running backs in other places. When he takes the handoff, he said he too often sees only a mass of humanity, darkness where there should be light. It wasn't like this in Denver during his first two seasons in the NFL, both of them brilliant. Maybe it's not like this elsewhere.

"I really wish," Portis said, "that I could switch places."

[SoCalSkins]

When the first man hits him, Clinton Portis is left to wonder what it's like for other running backs in other places. When he takes the handoff, he said he too often sees only a mass of humanity, darkness where there should be light. It wasn't like this in Denver during his first two seasons in the NFL, both of them brilliant. Maybe it's not like this elsewhere.

"I really wish," Portis said, "that I could switch places."

When no one respects your ability to pass that is the consequence. It is not a function of the line.

[F Landry]

It isn't Joe Bugel's fault that we aren't giving him talented young prospects to work with (aside from Rinehart).

I think he hasn't been top 5 in the league, but he certainly has been doing his job. Hes done the best he can with what we've given him. I'd say our line play has been average over the span of the last 4 years.

We've had our ups and downs, mostly due to injury. Boy, when we had all of our guys healthy in '06...it made Ladell Betts look like Clinton Portis (:laugh:@McD5)!

[Arsenic]

I love Buges.

However, there's obviously a problem with our current OL. Whether the problem is coaching / scheme or personnel, I can't say. I'de love to read some more educated opinions.

If the conclusion was made that the problem was coaching, which i really doubt, then whatever is best for the team should be done.

Im sure the problem is with the players... right?