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Unreasonable search and seizure anyone?


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http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/01/0958242&from=rss

andy1307 writes with a Washington Post story giving details of Department of Homeland Security policies for border searches of laptops and other electronic devices (as well as papers). (We have been discussing border searches for a while now.) DHS says such procedures have long been in place but were "disclosed last month because of public interest in the matter," according to the article. Here is a link to the policy (PDF, 5 pages). "Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed. Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption, or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies, US Customs and Border Protection and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement... DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies — which apply to anyone entering the country, including US citizens — are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism... The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form,' including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover 'all papers and other written documentation,' including books, pamphlets and 'written materials commonly referred to as "pocket trash...
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oh yeah, I forgot about that clause in the bill of rights about how it doesn't apply in airports.
Please show me where flying is a right. I am not saying I agree with the practice, but airports are not the only place you willingly subject yourself to search. Courthouses, most public buildings, schools all probably have similar rules in place.
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Please show me where flying is a right. I am not saying I agree with the practice, but airports are not the only place you willingly subject yourself to search. Courthouses, most public buildings, schools all probably have similar rules in place.

Schools are government property with legal precedent that states that students give up some rights in the name of safety and an uninterrupted educational process.

Airports are private property with no precedent.

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It's not exactly brain surgery on how to avoid this...... Don't leave the United States and this isn't an issue for you. If you're trying to enter the United States you and everything you bring with you should be under an obscene amount of scrutiny so far as I'm concerned.

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Please show me where flying is a right. I am not saying I agree with the practice, but airports are not the only place you willingly subject yourself to search. Courthouses, most public buildings, schools all probably have similar rules in place.

Scanning people for weapons is reasonable. Taking your laptop/ipod/etc and keeping them for an undetermined amount of time is unreasonable.

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Please show me where flying is a right. I am not saying I agree with the practice, but airports are not the only place you willingly subject yourself to search. Courthouses, most public buildings, schools all probably have similar rules in place.

I believe we have the right to prosper, and in today's world, prospering could very well mean cross-world travel at speeds only attainable by an aerial vehicle. I also believe the pursuit of happiness was supposed to be a right. one's happiness may lie in traveling the world.

But no, you're right, the constitution didn't specifically mention a right to fly, therefore the other rights specifically listed don't count either. while we're on the topic of rights not granted by the constitution, how about driving? I don't think that was in the constitution. I guess that must mean that cops can pull you over for no reason and search through every inch of your car.

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Scanning people for weapons is reasonable. Taking your laptop/ipod/etc and keeping them for an undetermined amount of time is unreasonable.

The courts disagree...besides if you do not encrypt,the likelihood of them keeping your laptop is almost nill :2cents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

Customs' authority to search electronic materials at the border are limited in only two ways: (1) the search may not cause exceptional damage to the property; and (2) the search may not be conducted in "a particularly offensive manner."[19] These restrictions are applicable to all border searches of property.[20] According to Arnold, the characteristics that make electronic storage devices unique, including vast storage capacity and the ability to track its user's habits, tastes, and preferences, are not legally significant. Additionally, the Ninth Circuit held that searching through personal electronic information in a laptop does not constitute an "offensive search."[21]

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That there is no right to privacy for yourself or your effects at the borders is well established legal doctrine....why should computers be exempt?

There's historical precedent that, when crossing a border, customs has the right to open and inspect your luggage.

Doesn't exactly mean there's a historical precedent for taking the traveler's luggage and keeping it for six months while they think about whether it might contain something illegal.

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There's historical precedent that, when crossing a border, customs has the right to open and inspect your luggage.

Doesn't exactly mean there's a historical precedent for taking the traveler's luggage and keeping it for six months while they think about whether it might contain something illegal.

It's an unspecified time limit, but it's not unlimited.

The policies state that officers may "detain" laptops "for a reasonable period of time" to "review and analyze information."

If they take it for longer than they would need to image your hard drive, I think you would win a challenge in court.

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It's an unspecified time limit, but it's not unlimited.

The policies state that officers may "detain" laptops "for a reasonable period of time" to "review and analyze information."

If they take it for longer than they would need to image your hard drive, I think you would win a challenge in court.

That leaves such an open door.

Who determines what the 'reasonable period of time is'?

Way too much room for abuse.

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There's historical precedent that, when crossing a border, customs has the right to open and inspect your luggage.

Doesn't exactly mean there's a historical precedent for taking the traveler's luggage and keeping it for six months while they think about whether it might contain something illegal.

They only keep what they cannot inspect.

You cannot deny them the right to OPEN and inspect and reasonably expect to bring anything in.

If you use encryption,provide the key...it is no different than expecting them to allow you to bring a locked container thru the border w/o them opening it.

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That leaves such an open door.

Who determines what the 'reasonable period of time is'?

Way too much room for abuse.

Judges determine what a reasonable period of time is. The Fourth Amendment says "unreasonable searches and seizures" - isn't that a huge open door?

There are words like "reasonable" all over our laws, and we rely on judges and juries to draw lines or make determinations on a case-by-case basis. Not everything can be written into simple rules like "under thirty minutes or your pizza is free." Maybe that creates room for abuse, but it also creates room for fairness.

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I already did with the border search exception ;)

Nonetheless, there is a legal ground somewhere between "complete immunity from any search whatsoever" and "the government is entitled to do whatever they want, and to gather any information they can get their hands on".

There's a difference between "let's look and see if the traveler is carrying a map of the security around the Brooklyn Navy Yard" and "let's data-mine every piece of paper he's got, every phone call he's made in the last two weeks, every piece of correspondence, every web page he's visited, every photograph on his hard drive, the password to every secure web site he's visited, his ExtremeSkins user name and every thing he's ever said about the US Government in Tailgate, and any other piece of information, no matter how personal or private, limited only by the degree of data-collection technology at our disposal".

There's a difference between a reduced expectation of privacy, lasting a few minutes or maybe an hour, and no privacy, extending retroactively forever.

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Judges determine what a reasonable period of time is. The Fourth Amendment says "unreasonable searches and seizures" - isn't that a huge open door?

There are words like "reasonable" all over our laws, and we rely on judges and juries to draw lines or make determinations on a case-by-case basis. Not everything can be written into simple rules like "under thirty minutes or your pizza is free." Maybe that creates room for abuse, but it also creates room for fairness.

QFT QFT

(Double QFT for its extreme truthiness)

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