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Extremeskins

Is Osama happy right now?


Henry

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Something I've been chewing on for awhile now.

If OBL is still alive, is he sitting in some cave, rubbing his hands together and cackling 'excellent!'

or is he cowering in some cave somewhere, looking in the mirror thinking 'what the hell was I thiniking?'

... or is it somewhere in between?

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I seriously doubt he's pleased in the slighest. Since 9/11, his organization has been exposed and put on the run. Plots against our interests have been foiled by governments throughout the world. Bin Laden is the leader of a global terrorist network and has been heard from under five times since 9/11, which means he's under so much pressure he can't even keep his people together through communication.

Not only has his organization been beaten up, but, now the U.S. is using resolve from his actions to attack a hated Arab nation with a secular leader who's killed more Muslims than any other person in the history of the world. He can only lend so much support to this regime without making those who would follow him wonder where his true loyalties lie.

Iraq will ultimately fall, and suddenly the Americans won't have the need to be on Holy Ground in Saudi Arabia. Suddenly the Americans can base themselves smack in the middle of the Arab world, thereby removing much of Muslim hostility to our presense in holy areas. Bin Laden is clearly not happy his actions didn't lead to a larger uprising among Muslim extremists and the Arab world against the U.S.

I think it's ludicrous to say he's pleased with what's happening. His world is crumbling and the U.S. is feeding Muslims and Arabs, will have two "friendly" governments in the region that we've installed along with numerous others who are openly currying favor. His world order took a serious negative turn through his actions. Unless he's dead he knows it.

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Things for Osama to be pleased with: America reviled worlwide, traditional alliances fragmenting over perceived "imperialistic" American policies. War much tougher than anticipated, and going to get worse. Discontent among civilians in middle east very high and only going to increase as war drags on and becomes much more bloody.

I am sure he is hoping Iraq is the spark to his long awaited jihad, whether it is or not we'll have to wait and see, but I have the distinct feeling he is both pleased and more optimistic than he has been since immediately after 9/11.

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Originally posted by Art

Iraq will ultimately fall, and suddenly the Americans won't have the need to be on Holy Ground in Saudi Arabia. Suddenly the Americans can base themselves smack in the middle of the Arab world, thereby removing much of Muslim hostility to our presense in holy areas. Bin Laden is clearly not happy his actions didn't lead to a larger uprising among Muslim extremists and the Arab world against the U.S.

I think it's ludicrous to say he's pleased with what's happening. His world is crumbling and the U.S. is feeding Muslims and Arabs, will have two "friendly" governments in the region that we've installed along with numerous others who are openly currying favor. His world order took a serious negative turn through his actions. Unless he's dead he knows it.

Art, are you saying we are going to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world?

:laugh:

I see. When I say it, it's stupid and you must attack me for it. When you say it, it's true.

:laugh:

You just like to argue with me don't you?

:rotflmao:

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I believe that it is naive to think that the invasion of Iraq will not aid in the recruitment of terrorists to attack the United States. After all, as Art correctly points out, it is the existence of U.S. forces in Saudi Arabia that really got under Bin Laden's skin. The truth is; however, that it is the U.S. support for the State of Israel that greatly enhanced the recruitment of terrorists. I don't believe that most muslims who decide to die killing as many of the infadil as possible are doing so because of the esoteric notion that foriegners have infiltrated their holy places. It is more likely, to my mind, that the existence of Israel is a much more concrete piller upon which to base such behavior.

Of course, this is just my opinion and the sense that I get from reading what is coming from the moslim world. But I cannot help by feel that Bin Laden, if he is still alive, is trying to use this war as a recruitment tool. For him, the Jihad will go on.

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Joe,

Bin Laden didn't even know Palestine existed until after 9/11 when he attempted to latch onto it. No one in Al Queda joined because of Palestine or Israel. Simply put, that wasn't what Al Queda was about. After 9/11 Bin Laden tried to join the cause, but, since he was never part of the cause, it fell flat. Same with any support he's offered to Iraq now. It is laughable to assume our actions in Iraq will breed more terrorists. The Arab world HATES Iraq. No man has killed more Muslims than Hussein. Every single time we ever have anything to do in the Middle East people jump up with the likely danger that the Arab world will jump up and bite us. It's never happened. It certainly won't happen because of Iraq. Now, if we end up having to do something to Syria and Iran as well, then we could be in trouble :).

Mike,

Don't know what you're talking about.

Yomar,

If we were reviled the world over, you'd have a point. But, since we have what can be said is a larger coalition than we had in the first Gulf War, the fact is, we actually have tremendous world support. You've just chosen to gloss over that fact. If the war has been much tougher than anticipated, you'd also have a point. But, it's not been tough at all. We've lost very few people. We've killed thousands of their soldiers. The weather broke and we have delivered all supplies to our troops we want. We're a tank of gas from Baghdad. We've got two fronts open and a third forming. We're rolling through Iraq with little resistance. Since we care about Iraqi citizens, we're not simply putting an end to resistance, but we are ending resistance by carefully placed shots, that limit danger to both our people and the Iraqi people. If after a week you could have told me we'd be this far along, we'd have held a party. Now we're a week in and we're this far along and you think the war is going badly. That's just odd.

And, again, you also seem to care one bit about the Arab Street. The last time the Arab world united in a cause was when several nations got together to go into Israel, and got their butts handed to them. The Arab world is now going to unite behind a secular leader who's killed more Arabs and Muslims than we have? It's DUMB. Obviously, Arabs are stupid people who if given a choice will jump up and down hating us over Saddam, and that's great. Everyone has to have a point in this world, and that can be their point. Iraq, though, isn't going to cause any massive uprising or any greater resentment in this part of the world. If we have to expand our actions to other nations, then it might. Otherwise, this nation allows for the least possible backlash in the Arab world as possible. And for that, we made a good choice.

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Art, the ONLY thing that I will add to this thread is that for you to say we have such overwhelming world support is nothing but FOX propeganda..... peroid.

The US has the vast majority of troops, the UK has 20-30 thousand troops the last time I heard, Austrailia has 2,000 troops committed, Poland has 200 troops and a forth country that I cannot remember has 200 troops... that's it.. done, finished. Turkey has allowed us to use their airspace but will not let our ground troops use their territory.

The other remaining countries are token names on a list... ICELAND? They haven't even had a military unit since the 16th century.

So what you have is 5 countries that have troops involved and 43 who are cheering for us and 150 countries against us.... Yes Art, that is overwhelming world support.

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Code,

If only I said we had overwhelming world support, you'd have a great point. But, since I said we have tremendous world support, that would make your recharacterization of what I said well off the mark and disconcerting that you'd take me to task on a figment of your imagination. Silly of you.

What I said is that we have what can be said to be more nations in support of this action than we had for the first Gulf war. The coalition of nations in open -- open means they've signed on -- support of this action is now around 50. There are many other nations, like Israel, who are in support but not signed on for political reasons. There are many other nations who are in support, but can't sign on because perhaps they have a hard core public that doesn't like us, yet as a government they still want Saddam out.

We supplied the majority of troops for the first Gulf war as well. We supply the majority of troops in any military action we take part in because, we rock, and we don't like other nations with technology 20-years behind ours getting in the way and actually HINDERING our military actions. I presume you understand all this when your imagination began to run a little wild on you.

Find me a listing of nations that are openly against our actions. That list numbers around 10. So, for me to cite factual numbers of nations that support the U.S. openly and without question and then for you to cite fictional numbers of opposed nations, makes me wonder at your sanity. But, you'll apologize, I'm sure, for misrepresenting what I said and move on and I'll love you in the morning still.

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FWIW, I don't think OBL can be too sad at the world's current state. Not because he or his cause has made huge strides to bring attention to the "infidel" or any BS like that. OBL belongs to a sick sect of Islam that would rather see the end to Islam as a whole, as long as it means killing a few Jews and Americans along the way.

In the end, it has very little to do with Islam, and much more to do with who to blame for what the people in the middle east perceive as their injustice.

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Originally posted by Art

Code,

If only I said we had overwhelming world support, you'd have a great point. But, since I said we have tremendous world support, that would make your recharacterization of what I said well off the mark and disconcerting that you'd take me to task on a figment of your imagination. Silly of you.

In that case, no problem, I misunderstood where you were coming from.

:cheers:

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Originally posted by Park City Skins

Here code, from CNN, ( I wouldn't want to be guilty of spreading propaganda by using Fox :rolleyes: a look a t forces in the Persian Gulf now. Feel free to navigate around that site. Good info and it's certainly nice to have that once in a while.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/coalition/index.html

PCS, I'm not sure how this link relates to other nations supplying troops. I did not scan every link on the opening page, but the ones I did scan listed US, British and Australian troops. There were US troops that had home bases listed in places like Italy and Germany but they were US troops, not Italian and German. Am I off base here?

If I'm off base, sorry, but thanks for the link, it's good info.:cheers:

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No. Not off base. Just where the units are stationed at. the germans are definately sitting this one out. Unfortunately it doesn't list all the smaller contributions by other countries, that can find...yet. Still an outstanding site for getting an idea of what is over there and how many and what they do.

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Originally posted by Park City Skins

No. Not off base. Just where the units are stationed at. the germans are definately sitting this one out. Unfortunately it doesn't list all the smaller contributions by other countries, that can find...yet. Still an outstanding site for getting an idea of what is over there and how many and what they do.

Ok,,, I understand, thanks for the link, it is good info.:cheers:

Also, I do understand that the other nations are making smaller contributions, I was really only pointing that towards alot of the things O'Reilly has been saying, he really puts a spin on that there is "overwhelming world support".

By the way PCS, sometimes, I honestly have a hard time gauging your posts, so I don't mean to be "attacking", I'm still trying to figure you out so to speak....:cheers:

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It is laughable to assume our actions in Iraq will breed more terrorists. The Arab world HATES Iraq...It certainly won't happen because of Iraq...Iraq, though, isn't going to cause any massive uprising or any greater resentment in this part of the world.

Art, do you have any evidence to support those assertions? Because I'd like to hope its true, but everything I read indicates exactly the opposite. The Arab world IS in fact seething in anger towards the US. The Baghdad marketplace disaster now has made things infinitely worse. And as the war continues there will inevitably be civilian casualties to feed the hatred despite our best efforts. If there are not...Saddam will helpfully supply some to keep the flames fanned.

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The Arab world DOES hate Iraq. However, if there's one thing the Arab world hates MORE than Iraq (or rather, the current Iraqi regime) it's the thought of American influence in the region.

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Jimbo,

Which "assertions" are you asking for evidence on? The known fact that Saddam has killed more Muslims than any man ever, and the Arab world hates Iraq because Saddam has done this, and attacked neighboring countries during his time.

If you've seen anything to show the Arab world is in true unity with Iraq, you've seen a fictional creation, because, simply put, the Arab world hates Iraq. They hate us too, but on different levels and for different reasons.

The marketplace problem is not anything we need to be concerned about. At this point we tend to believe THEY hit themselves by badly firing anti-aircraft weapons, and we know the leader of the air defense of Baghdad was replaced just after the marketplace. We may have hit that area, or, they may have.

Saddam has already supplied deaths and threatened fathers and sons to fight else he'd kill daughters and mothers. The Arab world won't rise up for Iraq because the Arab world hates Saddam and Iraq. I think you MUST know this and simply have phrased your question in such a way as I have misunderstood it and can't really answer it.

The Muslim world over there hates Saddam because he is a secular leader and they see through his pretend Muslim unity calls. They know his history in the region and among Muslims, who've been brutalized under his direction. There will be no uprising for him. Arabs seeth in the street all the damn time. They were seething in the street when we kicked the cr@p out of an actual Muslim regime in Afghanistan.

The fact is, the last time the Arab street rose up, Israel kicked the holy hell out of it and, if the Arab steet rises up again, something awfully similar will happen, but it won't happen now, over Iraq. If we are forced to expand to Syria and/or Iran, then you could see a meaningful unity against us. Until then, the savages can dance in the streets all they want about hating the U.S. They aren't going to do much else but dance over Iraq because in the end, they hate him and know how dangerous he's been to fellow Arabs for so long.

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Guest SkinsHokie Fan

Indeed the Arab world does have a strong hatred against Saddam. However as a Muslim I am terribly insulted that they did nothing about it and took no measures to get rid of him. Likewise as was said before Arabs hate US influence in the affairs of state over there. Hopefully Iraq will be the first regime to be toppled and others will follow

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You are focusing on irrelevancies and ignoring the broad truth because its inconvenient.

I could care less what the Arab street thinks of Saddam. Presumably they hate him for his cruelty. You make up the silliest things, like implying I said the Arab world is in "true unity" with Saddam, and then you argue against this statement I never made. You MUST have a lot of time on your hands.

The assertions I refer to are the statements that the war in Iraq will not cause greater resentment of the US among Arabs, and it is laughable that they will engage in more terrorism as a result.

This, from what I see, is false. The rage against the US among even our supposed 'allies' in the Middle East is palpable. Every reliable news source is reporting this effect, which is why I asked if you had information to the contrary, apparently you do not. These people care not a whit about Saddam - but when they see video of wounded and dying civilians who do you think they blame?

I don't care that the marketplace may have been due to Iraqi mistakes. When I first heard about it my assumption was it had been done deliberately - by Saddam's people. Unfortunately, that would be great tactics for him. It has inflamed the Arab world, and not being stupid, Saddam and his henchmen will file that little lesson away. You can bet we'll be seeing it again.

If you wish to discount this effect, that's another issue. Personally I feel there's no question that this will result in increased terrorist attacks. You are correct that one expression of Arab outrage ended in an Israeli buttkicking. But another ended in thousands dead and the twin towers gone, and I can't dismiss that quite so easily.

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Jimbo,

It is certainly revealing that you would brand the Arab worlds disdain for Iraq, and their knowledge of his murderous regime against Muslims and fellow Arabs as irrelevancies. I admit, they are very likely irrelevant to a person that is inclined to believe that every doom and gloom prediction is possible.

However, if one were inclined to actually care about the broad truths, rather than just assigning his narrow views as broadly truthful, one must take into serious account the impact of Saddam's actions of the past 30 years and how they impact the Arab world's support for him, even in this contest against the United States.

See, it's not broad of you to ignore all of those factors as irrelevant. In fact, it's more hebetate hyperventilating that oddly finds comfort in actually recognizing any point that may actually diminish the threat of the worst doom and gloom proposition possible.

Certainly, it is, in theory, plausible that our actions in Iraq may lead to heightened terrorist attacks against our interests. This is your broad truth, and it would appear, no data would allow you the comfort of how that broad truth is laughable to consider when weighed against numerous factors that limit the reality of it taking place.

Here are many irrelevancies to your broad truth:

1. Virtually all international terrorism of the kind we're discussing is undertaken by hard core religious fanatics driven to sacrifice themselves to fight against a perceived slight against their religion.

2. Saddam is a secular leader in a Muslim region and majority Muslim country. As such, he lacks the ability to inspire the types of people required to perform the types of sacrifices necessary.

3. Saddam has led attacks on neighboring Arab nations.

4. Saddam has killed more Muslims than any other person in the world.

5. The most adored figure among the types of people required to carry off this type of threat against the U.S. is named Bin Laden.

6. We have directly assaulted Bin Laden and have his people, and those that would support him presently on the run and inert, having been unable to carry off any acts of terrorism here since we began to target he and them.

7. We attacked and overthrew a true Muslim nation, led by Muslims. At that time such shrill calls of the possible danger was much more real than it is now, and little has come of in response to our actions.

8. It is being reported that some of Saddam's most loyal Fedeyeen have turned themselves in and stated they were sent to continue acts of suicide bombing against the U.S. and they didn't want to, which underlies an essential truism -- it takes a TRUE believer to kill himself.

I'll stop there for a moment to expand on that. Even if Arabs the world over are angered beyond measure at what we are doing, it matters very little because precious few people not infected with the sickness of fanatical religious beliefs are actually willing to kill themselves to further their beliefs. Obviously this is not entirely true in all cases, but it is predominately true.

What you are seeing on every reliable news outlet pictured in the Arab world are the same pictures you've seen for years. The same protests. The same Time covers of Arabs screaming and burning the U.S. flag. The same celebrations when we suffer harm. It's the same palpable anger every reliable news outlet shows EVERY single time they want to suggest that this is the time the Arab street may rise. This is the time the Arab world may martyr itself to stop us. This is the...blah.....blah.....blah.

I understand and see many of the same images you see, but I don't see danger, Jimbo. I see a pathetic, wretched bunch of cowards who will do absolutely nothing other than breaking a few pieces of furniture to protest our actions. If we attacked an Arab nation the Arabs like, then perhaps, again, as with Afghanistan, it wouldn't be such a ludicrous suggestion to think that this time it'll really happen. But, this is Iraq we're talking about.

The people in this region love burning our flag. They love screaming about the imperial Americans who've never actually bothered to be imperial. And they know it. They know the words they say aren't true, because if they were, we'd have stomped these vile morons to death years ago. If they see us expanding in the Middle East then their anger may turn to something more severe. But it won't be over the invasion of Iraq, which is least liked nation in that region, and the least likely to actually inspire any true repercussions.

Let's address this after we engage Iran and Syria though. Then you may be on to something.

As a closing point about your comments regarding my statements involving true unity with Iraq. My statement was a question that if you've seen anything suggesting true unity with Iraq among the Arab world, you've seen fiction. I didn't say you said that. I didn't imply you said that. I said if you have seen it, you've seen fiction.

As such, it would require unity with Iraq for the Arab world to respond to our actions in Iraq. That's a straight one for one, idiot proof statement. The Arabs aren't going to mount acts of terrorism against us without standing WITH Iraq. And, so I'll ask again, if you've seen anything showing true unity with Iraq, you've seen fiction.

Without a united sense to fight for and with Iraq, any thoughts you have that we're in danger from increased terrorism out of this region is a laughable suggestion. At the very least you have to draw a correlation between the anger in the Arab world, our actions in Iraq, and their willingness to harm us, and defend Iraq. In the end, all of those components are necessary for there to be a real threat to us and in the end, all will exist, but one. In the end, not many are going to defend Iraq. To suggest it's a real threat to see these types of terrorist acts increase in our nation without that unity is the laughable suggestion I was referring to. Though, I never said you implied it. It is, however, implicit in thinking people will kill themselves in acts of terror. I'm sure you know that.

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If he is still alive or at least healthy, I think it is safe to assume he is planning and is not happy. Our war against Iraq might be what he expected and is fodder for his hostile attitude towards us. He vies Iraq as part of the "muslim" nation.

Read this article. I stumbled across it trying to find out more info on Arnett and the crap he fed to Iraqi TV. It's kinda frustrating to read but here it is nonetheless.....

http://www.anusha.com/osamaint.htm

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Art, all this would be great stuff if we were writing a master's thesis. But we're not, or at least I'm not anyway.

If you'll look back, before the bombast and verbal trots, you'll note I simply asked for references backing up your statements that the war isn't increasing resentment in the Arab world, and whatever reactions they do have are of no serious concern. Your response was interesting but hardly illuminating. So I'll just post a couple of links to that liberal rag The Washington Times which cause me some concern.

Arab world seethes in war commentary

Arab antiwar sentiment threatens Mubarak

Kind of you to point out the irrelevancies in my previous post. But since I asked the question, one of the neat things is that I get to decide what's relevent and what isn't. :cool: Oh, regarding your "question" about Arab unity, I might suggest you top off your queries with a bit of punctuation called a question mark. Its customary in my country.:laugh:

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Jimbo,

You do understand that's not really how it works, right? It doesn't really work that you can draw a picture about what worries you, tell another why it's worrisome, and then ignore any data that might suggest the worry is foolish. In fact, no, you don't get to define that any evidence that happens to weaken your assessment is irrelevant in the equation.

But, if I look back, it didn't appear to me that you were asking me to back up my statements that the war isn't increasing resentment in the Arab world. Do you know why? Because I never said that. I said it's laughable to suggest our actions in Iraq will lead to greater instances of terrorism. Later, I wrote that the Arabs can jump up and down hating us over the war in Iraq all they want, because they do that anyway. That's routine for them to express their outrage against the United States in this way. Greater resentment, leading to people willing to kill themselves to take down Americans is, however, not really part of the equation because in the end, these people aren't going to stand up for Saddam, and you're kidding yourself if you think they will, or, worse, that knowing who they'd kill themselves for is not in play.

So, clearly, you never questioned me about statements about whether or not this is increasing resentment in the Arab world about the United States. That is absolutely true. A U.S. serviceman can take a dump in Saudi Arabia and it'll increase the resentment over the United States. I spoke of the greater resentment that would lead to men sacrificing their lives to harm us, which appeals to fundamentalists that, simply put, do not flock to the banner of Saddam in anything.

Since the assertion I made was in the end the Arab region's and Muslim people's hatred of Saddam's Iraq makes it very difficult to be overly concerned with any of them making the ultimate sacrifice for him, I'll assume we're now talking about the same thing.

And, to close, perhaps you missed that I said, my statement was a question. I didn't say I wrote a question, but, that I made a statement, that was a question, as it was a two-part, starting with a question, and ending with an answer, which requires a period. In the future, when you see "If you've seen anything," you can rest assured I'm not saying you have seen anything. I'm either asking, or, furthering a point and you may wish to be less sensitive. When I attribute something to you, I'll do so by using quotes.

When we're having a conversation I'll assume you won't take it that every time I ask a question, even one as clearly rhetorical, that you'll make an assumption that I'm assigning words to you, though I may be assigning words to your beliefs you don't yet recognize. In return, please make sure you use quotes as well to avoid the confusion you had in what we're talking about. Don't Michael Moore intermix yourself with sentences and parts of sentences from responses to two different people, then ask me to explain myself, then have me explain myself, then say I'm not addressing what you're asking.

You're right, I wasn't, because I didn't realize you were talking simply about increasing Arab resentment over this war. That certainly exists and I'd never suggest it doesn't. I would suggest that such resentment exists in just about everything we do and it doesn't concern me because the manifestation of this resentment turning into a greater resentment that will allow people to sacrifice themselves to hurt us simply won't take place when at the end of the equation there is Saddam. Again, ask me about the risks if we attack a popular Arab country.

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