Jerseys - Game-Worn, Team-Issued, Authentic, Replica, Fake, and everything in between

[lwiedy]

Here is another circa early 1970’s jersey. Don’t know if it is game-worn, but I don’t see anything to prove that it’s not. Don’t know what’s going on in the neck area.

[lwiedy]

You see a lot of the 1994 M&N Throwback Ricky Ervins jersey around. Here is the Starter version done with Reggie Brooks’ #40. The only two numbers I've ever seen the maroon were 40 & 5. The white #28 posted at the beginning of this thread is really sweet in terms of the extras. Cuffed sleeves (although D. Green actually had loose sleeves) and the spandex side panels. I think these are vastly superior to the M&N. The colors seem more accurate, probably since they (through Ripon) did the gamers. Don’t be fooled by how light this jersey appears, it took a beating in one particular wash cycle and the maroon raised several shades. It was originally much darker.

[lwiedy]

Interesting thing illustrated by this jersey and the action photo. Sleeve numbers for linemen and most linebackers are this tall narrow style. Everyone else (you can see Landry in the background) have the wider-shorter numbers. This style is consistent with what Ripon/Sand-Knit have done for years. Evidently, the cut of the linemen’s jersey demand a different shape.

[fullnelson9999]

wow, just read that first post and damn my eyes hurt! But its all good information to know. Thankfully, i am someone who will NEVER buy a jersey off eBay anyway, so i should be good i think. Nice thread.

[Mark The Homer]

Interesting thing illustrated by this jersey and the action photo. Sleeve numbers for linemen and most linebackers are this tall narrow style. Everyone else (you can see Landry in the background) have the wider-shorter numbers. This style is consistent with what Ripon/Sand-Knit have done for years. Evidently, the cut of the linemen’s jersey demand a different shape.

Exactly. I noticed these different fonts a couple years ago and thought it was just random errors. But since acquiring my Jansen which also has the smaller numbers, I compared them. A sleeve's wider numbers, like on Landry's jersey, are actually taller than on a lineman's jersey. They just look shorter because they are wider. The lineman's numbers are smaller because the sleeve is smaller, both in height and width. I discuss this in post #1, just below where the Reebok jersey area starts.

Thanks for your posts! I will comment more when I have time.

Edit:

Here are two Russell Athletic Jerseys circa 1988. They came with no NOB. The NOB was done exactly to specs of the time. These would be considered to be “authentic” although since they do not have the spandex side panels, they fall just short of “gamer” status.

Although there were slight variations (open mesh worn for warmer games, the nylon fabric used in the ’88 & ’89 seasons) these were the jerseys used during the 1979-1989 period. Other variations included vinyl pressed numbers on the open mesh in 1987 & ’88).

Do you know what the story is with no NOB on the Authentics? Was that policy back then? Was it impossible to get an Authentic with a NOB?

Also, you have said Russell was the manufacturer of the gamers in '79-'89. I thought MacGregor made them in 1989 - and you seem to confirm this when you mention the "M" that mysteriously appeared during the last game of the season at Seattle.

My own research into game photos shows similar styled jerseys in 1988 and 1989 and 1990. This makes me think jerseys during this period were all made by the same manufacturer - MacGregor Sand-Knit. I know you claim "Authentic" (retail) jerseys circa 1988 were made by Russell, but we know that doesn't necessarily mean gamers were made by Russell. What evidence do you have that causes you to believe Russell made Redskins game jerseys after 1987? Could you be mistaken? Is it possible game jerseys switched to MacGregor in 1988, even as retail jerseys continued to be made by Russell?

Is there a way to tell in photos if numbers are vinyl pressed or screened? I would imagine vinyl would not allow holes to show in the mesh, whereas screened would show holes.

Some of those photos above I recognize. I've been scouring the internet for pics of old Redskins jerseys for quite a while.

Thanks

[lwiedy]

You have forced me to use my powers ;-) I definitely stand by my timeline. Russell (RA) in 1988 & 1989 with the Macgregor/Sand-Knits (MSK) being used in the final game of the 1989 season, but I will modify that last statement slightly below.

Item #1: Did the Skins wear RA in 1988 & 1989? Here are two Topps cards from 1990. Keep in mind, that unless a card is from the “update set” all images are from no earlier than the previous year as they are prepared long before the season starts. Here are the 1990 Grant and Byner.

The Grant is to show the Russell Athletic tag (thank you Darryl for wearing your shirt out). The Byner is to show that the Grant photo was taken at the same time as the Byner. Many of that year’s set were taken at the same site and by judging by the various backgrounds in the cards, it is at the L.A. Coliseum vs. the Raiders, which was in October of 1989 (a disaster of a game, btw). If you agree that the Byner & Grant were taken at the same time, it would have to be 1989, Byner's first year with the Skins. I think you’d agree the source of the both jerseys are the same.

Item #2: The difference between RA and MSK. Also from the 1990 Topps set are Ricky Sanders & Walter Stanley.

Ricky looks to be at that same Raiders game and although it is inconclusive, it definitely has to be before the 1990 season. The Walter Stanley card, even though it is from the 1990 Topps set is from the Update set, issued mid-way through the 1990 season to reflect trades, etc. The photo is from the famous comeback against the Lions. Ricky is in the RA and Walter is wearing the MSK. The differences in the numbers are quite dramatic IMO.

Item #3: RA did not have the cuffed lineman sleeves. That was only true through 1987. In 1988 & 1989 they did. Here is Charles Mann wearing both the RA & MSK.

Card 1 is from the 1990 Fleer set. Same rules, has to be a photo prior to 1990. The second is from the 1991 Topps set with a 1990 photo. Noticeable difference not only in the numbering but in the cuffing of the sleeves as well.

Item #4: The MSK’s were worn only during the last game of the 1989 season (as I stated earlier). Not completely true.

Here are examples of a couple of players that switched before the Seattle game. The first Jim Lachey card is from the Giants game in early October of 1989. He is wearing the RA lineman’s jersey. The second is taken from the Raiders game in late October and he has switched. Look at the difference in TV number style between his and Raleigh MacKenzie to his right. Also, Gerald Riggs changed. His first card was taken from his first game in 1989, the HOF Game vs. Buffalo. I’m not sure when the second card photo was taken, but it obviously had to be after the first. But these were the exceptions. If you see footage of the SD game in December of ’89, the bulk of the players were wearing the RA’s. The next week in Atlanta, they wore the reds, then in Seattle they wore the MSK as a team.

Another thing that I left out was that, for whatever reason, MSK NEVER made a set of reds. There were just two games in the 1990 regular season (Phoenix and Dallas) and one in the 1991 season (Dallas) that the Skins wore red, and they all were still Russell Athletic. Even with Starter being the official supplier in 1991, there wasn’t a Starter red jersey until 1992. The possible exception MIGHT have been a player added during the 1991 season, but I do not recall.

Mark, you certainly have the last word on the “late-model” Skins gear and I look to you for that, but I feel pretty good about this stuff. If you have any snaps that you want to date or identify from this era, I’d be glad to take a shot. Be assured if I give you a guess, it will come with some back-up.

[lwiedy]

I really don’t remember what “Shop NFL” was up to in the late 1980’s. I remember in the mid-1980’s the NFL allowed Sand-Knit to make retail jerseys, I bought a Rawlings Riggins jersey in 1984. If you had a Skins MSK jersey back then, unless you were totally anal about it, most people didn’t really care. They came real close and that was ok, with one exception. Remember when the country was going nuts for the Bears in 1985? Everybody wanted a Fridge jersey. Sand-Knit made the retail version and they were so way off on the Bears numbers that it drove me nuts. The Bears jersey was made by Wilson, had very distinct numbers and MSK didn’t even come close, but I digress.

As for how to tell the difference between vinyl lettering and screened, it’s difficult. Are there very sharp angles to the letters? That might indicate that the letters were cut and pressed as opposed to screened which the angles are slightly less sharp. That Darryl Morrison photo you posted earlier, I would say vinyl. Don’t really know why unless he was acquired in during the season and the club was forced to create a makeshift nameplate. Nobody to my knowledge has screening equipment in a clubhouse, but everybody has a heatpress to do things on the fly.

Here is the jersey they made for Shuler when he was drafted. It’s vinyl but he had screened letters on his gamer.

[Mark The Homer]

Dude, we have to drink some beers together some day.

I've read through everything. Seriously, I've been waiting for a poster like you, because I actually don't know what the **** I'm doing. I need help. And I've gotten a little, but you're the first to give me significant help in the early jerseys.

Reading through your posts, I'm finally getting a clear picture of what was going on in the 80s. Apparently, although jersey manufacturers changed, the team also re-used jerseys that weren't worn out. So that perfectly explains many of the discrepencies that I see while looking at photos from set years. I was thinking maybe the photos were dated badly (and this is true in some) but now I understand things better.

I'll read this over again tomorrow when I have more time and comment further.

Happy New Year.

[lwiedy]

Here is one more look at today's lesson. From the 1989 highlight film is the last home game vs. SD then the last game vs. Seattle. Against SD, predominantly RA, and against Seattle almost completely MSK. If the video is clear enough, Art Monk is seen actually wearing the RA while everyone else is in the MSK's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly6H6V9Ois4

Here is another source of the video in case YouTube blasts the other one.

[lwiedy]

Unfortunately, most of my Redskins admiration has come from afar (NY, then Florida) but I tried to pay attention to everything I see and make a mental note to the point where I can spout easily on the subject. Always good to have a refresher, though, that way I end up remembering things like no Starters in red until 1992. Also, I’m not totally sure I could have told you that Lachey & Riggs were wearing the MSK before anyone else did until I carefully perused the cards as I did. Always learning.

Although having two manufacturers seem very unusual by today’s standards, back then it was pretty much up to the club as to which companies they would use. Also remember what I stated earlier, that Starter never actually made the jerseys that their logo was on, so it’s all a game anyway. Isn’t it still the case with Reebok? They don’t make ‘em, just put the logo on a Ripon jersey, right. That’s your territory.

I am VERY envious of your inventory BTW. Not just the quantity, but quality. I only have a few jerseys and only couple that I wear, because if it isn’t real (or match real), I won’t put it on. The only three in my wearing rotation are a 1992 red Rypien Starter jersey, a 2000 white Brad Johnson Adidas jersey and the M&N Sam Huff. The Huff is most like a replica in that it was not made to game specs, but I’ll give them credit, they (M&N) did a great job and with the exception of a minor issue with the shape of the TV numbers, it’s right on. My Brad Johnson is exactly like your Brad in red. Even had the sleeved cut and hemmed. Your white Brad, although sold to you as “authentic” is pretty bogus. I bought it from Shop NFL back in 2001 based on the photo they used which was right and got the one you have. I sent it back with photo evidence of why their claim of “authentic” and “what the players wear” was neither. I can only imagine what they said, “What a tight ass!” But I got my refund.

Again, anytime you want photo opinions, I’ll be glad to take a stab.

[lwiedy]

I'll take a crack at some of the photos you posted. My comments are in burgundy:):

Super Bowl XVIII (it's hard to see, but Grimm's NOB is that same style as on the large Theismann jersey I posted)

Dexter in 1989. Only times I've seen these unusual support sleeves on him was in '89. Using the jersey as a guide, can only be '88 or '89.

Clint's opening day run in 2004.

...1979 - 1989 (Corrected:))

1989 (one game) - 1990

1988 finale at Cincinnati

1988 or '89.

1990 at home. Maybe vs. New Orleans.

...1991-1996

I really think this was 1990, not later.

I believe this is 1993. In 1994, cards wore red and skins white. Also, I see Reggie Roby on the sidelines, he was with the club in 93 & 94 but it can't be 94 because no 75th patch.

This one is tough, but I'm going to say 1994. It looks as if the Niners are wearing white pants which they did with the 1994 Throwbacks. The only other possibility would be '96 and that was a cloudy day at RFK.

1994 vs. Atlanta

1997

This sure looks like a Starter jersey with Wilson tags. Look at the Terry Allen photo below, does his 21 look like the same shaping as this 37? Can't explain how this can happen, but I think it did nonetheless.

Just a guess, but at Arizona.

Only wore the reds three times in '97, at Carolina, at Tennessee (Memphis) and at Dallas. Really looks like Dallas.

...1998

If this is in fact from the regular season, it looks indoors to me. The two choices are Minnesota or Seattle, I'm going with Seattle

...1999-2001

Redskins jerseys began carrying the Adidas logo in 1999. Jerseys were nylon. However, the fabric in the side panels was made of verticle and horizontal spandex thread, which is consistent with past years. The seam across the chest fell below the neckline on loose sleeved jerseys and the seam was aligned above the NFL shield on the tight-sleeve jerseys. Numbers were screened.

Letters were screened onto a nameplate

Really? I know you have one right there but it seemds to me that on the 1999-2000 jerseys the letters were vinyl pressed on to the name plate, no?

This is the one I sent back. I normally don't do such things, but I was so pissed.

My Brad is exactly like this one, only in white and it did come with the NFL shield.

1999 in Dallas. The '99 game was in October, 2000 was December (wouldn't have that kind of sunlight in Dec.) and Brad was benched by then.

That Johnson lettering is vinyl pressed on. Whether that is what was on gamers in 99-00 I can't say for sure but that is what my impression was.

...2002-present

Whether intentional or not, they replicate the 1970 & '71 uniforms with the obvious exceptions of the misplaced sleeve numbers, striping which was given the "modern" treatment. And although the design was clearly the brainchild of Lombardi, he never coached them wearing the gold helmets. Don't know if he ever did coach any of the 1970 preseason but he died before the regular year, so it's not likely.

Like him or not as a QB, gotta love they way he wore his jersey. I think it should be a rule that at least one player (punter, kicker, whomever) has to wear the full sleeve stripes.

Jason has certainly had a hard time making up his mind on open or cuffed sleeves.

Your notation about Monk taking off the NFL logo was great. I distinctly remember seeing it when they made their debut in 1991 but thinking it was just left off his. good stuff!

These jerseys are for ****.

Below is a link to a redskins.com ad with the words "Here's the same authentic football jersey worn on the field by your favorite NFL players." Not true.

http://shop.redskins.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductDetailIndexName=CategoryDetail_554&C1=500&CategoryID=554&ProductID=38818

Maybe some ignorant advertising rep made a bad assumption. I hope so. To the Redskins' credit, most of their Authentic Jersey ads don't make this claim.

Back in late 2004 when I was young, naive, and new at this hobby, I "chatted" online with nflshop and asked them about the discrepency between authentic jerseys and game jerseys. I was not trying to stir up trouble. I honestly didn't understand what was going on. I assured the nflshop rep I was prepared to spend hundreds of dollars at nfl.com for an authentic jersey, but if I did that, I wanted a true authentic jersey like in the game photos, not whatever kind of jersey was pictured and listed as an authentic jersey as shown on the nfl.com website. I was genuinely puzzled. He seemed puzzled too because he insisted the jerseys sold at nflshop.com were the same as the jerseys on the field - until I actually had him check some urls showing the difference. After a long hold, he finally said he'd refer me to somebody else in management about this, and the management guy would email me. The next day when I finally got into emails with the management guy, he wrote me one sentence: "All we have available is what we have listed on the website." Period. What kind of explanation is that? It seemed unreal to me that I couldn't buy a true authentic jersey at nfl.com, especially after seeing their TV ads with the guy popping out of the equipment bag and all that. So when I responded to his email, I asked him, why does nfl.com sell "authentic" jerseys that are not actually authentic? He answered me in another email "Because that's what Reebok sends us." Six words. End of email. I couldn't get him to expound or explain -- and it was clear he just wanted me to go away and stop bugging him. I finally gave up, and realized if I wanted a real jersey, I'd have to find one from a source other than nfl.com (I recall all these fine details because I had documented all this in a text file at the time - I thought it was interesting).

Four years later, not much has changed.

Ha, ha. This sounds like my story from 8 years ago when I sent back the Johnson jersey!!!

When I go to games here in Tampa, I do not see one single jersey out of hundreds, perhaps thousands that I would classify as "authentic" and judging by what I see on TV the same holds true in DC. I ask people I know who are "guilty" of this and they don't seem to give a ****. They also "buy" the line that they are sold an authentic jersey eventhough any idiot can look at it and know the difference.

Mark, you and I are among a very rare breed. To the folks at NFL.com, we are just buzzing flies to be brushed aside as quickly as possible. Because more folks don't demand what is right and real, it'll never be worth their while to provide it.

...

[Yeen80]

Jesus Lweidy!!! :notworthy

If I could have photographic memory like you when I was in school studying Economics....

[Mark The Homer]

wow, just read that first post and damn my eyes hurt! But its all good information to know. Thankfully, i am someone who will NEVER buy a jersey off eBay anyway, so i should be good i think. Nice thread.

Thank you. Don't completely blow off eBay though. Some of my best deals were found on eBay. You just have to be careful.

You have forced me to use my powers ;-) I definitely stand by my timeline. Russell (RA) in 1988 & 1989 with the Macgregor/Sand-Knits (MSK) being used in the final game of the 1989 season, but I will modify that last statement slightly below.

Item #1: Did the Skins wear RA in 1988 & 1989? Here are two Topps cards from 1990. Keep in mind, that unless a card is from the “update set” all images are from no earlier than the previous year as they are prepared long before the season starts. Here are the 1990 Grant and Byner.

The Grant is to show the Russell Athletic tag (thank you Darryl for wearing your shirt out). The Byner is to show that the Grant photo was taken at the same time as the Byner. Many of that year’s set were taken at the same site and by judging by the various backgrounds in the cards, it is at the L.A. Coliseum vs. the Raiders, which was in October of 1989 (a disaster of a game, btw). If you agree that the Byner & Grant were taken at the same time, it would have to be 1989, Byner's first year with the Skins. I think you’d agree the source of the both jerseys are the same.

Agreed.

Item #2: The difference between RA and MSK. Also from the 1990 Topps set are Ricky Sanders & Walter Stanley.

Ricky looks to be at that same Raiders game and although it is inconclusive, it definitely has to be before the 1990 season. The Walter Stanley card, even though it is from the 1990 Topps set is from the Update set, issued mid-way through the 1990 season to reflect trades, etc. The photo is from the famous comeback against the Lions. Ricky is in the RA and Walter is wearing the MSK. The differences in the numbers are quite dramatic IMO.

Ok. Agreed again!

Item #3: RA did not have the cuffed lineman sleeves. That was only true through 1987. In 1988 & 1989 they did. Here is Charles Mann wearing both the RA & MSK.

Card 1 is from the 1990 Fleer set. Same rules, has to be a photo prior to 1990. The second is from the 1991 Topps set with a 1990 photo. Noticeable difference not only in the numbering but in the cuffing of the sleeves as well.

Yes. I've noticed these differences in the sleeve cuffs as well, but didn't really have an explanation. It seems the stripes in the cuffs on Mann's jersey are thinner. Wasn't sure if this was my imagination or not when I noticed this is other photos. But this finally makes sense now.

Item #4: The MSK’s were worn only during the last game of the 1989 season (as I stated earlier). Not completely true.

Here are examples of a couple of players that switched before the Seattle game. The first Jim Lachey card is from the Giants game in early October of 1989. He is wearing the RA lineman’s jersey. The second is taken from the Raiders game in late October and he has switched. Look at the difference in TV number style between his and Raleigh MacKenzie to his right. Also, Gerald Riggs changed. His first card was taken from his first game in 1989, the HOF Game vs. Buffalo. I’m not sure when the second card photo was taken, but it obviously had to be after the first. But these were the exceptions. If you see footage of the SD game in December of ’89, the bulk of the players were wearing the RA’s. The next week in Atlanta, they wore the reds, then in Seattle they wore the MSK as a team.

Alright, man. I am convinced. Nice job! Thank-you.

Another thing that I left out was that, for whatever reason, MSK NEVER made a set of reds. There were just two games in the 1990 regular season (Phoenix and Dallas) and one in the 1991 season (Dallas) that the Skins wore red, and they all were still Russell Athletic. Even with Starter being the official supplier in 1991, there wasn’t a Starter red jersey until 1992. The possible exception MIGHT have been a player added during the 1991 season, but I do not recall.

Mark, you certainly have the last word on the “late-model” Skins gear and I look to you for that, but I feel pretty good about this stuff. If you have any snaps that you want to date or identify from this era, I’d be glad to take a shot. Be assured if I give you a guess, it will come with some back-up.

Everything is coming together now. Obviously, the team was very frugal with their jerseys back then. If they have a perfectly good set of burgundy jerseys, why replace them just because of a manufacturing change? They may have been able to get away with it because the RA jeseys had no logo visible. Those burgundy jerseys were probably simply too new to retire. JKC didn't get wealthy by throwing away perfectly good stuff.

I am very impressed you can pinpoint a photo - not just including year, but team and date too. Wow. You must have a nice collection of cards that you use to do this.

I really don’t remember what “Shop NFL” was up to in the late 1980’s. I remember in the mid-1980’s the NFL allowed Sand-Knit to make retail jerseys, I bought a Rawlings Riggins jersey in 1984. If you had a Skins MSK jersey back then, unless you were totally anal about it, most people didn’t really care. They came real close and that was ok, with one exception. Remember when the country was going nuts for the Bears in 1985? Everybody wanted a Fridge jersey. Sand-Knit made the retail version and they were so way off on the Bears numbers that it drove me nuts. The Bears jersey was made by Wilson, had very distinct numbers and MSK didn’t even come close, but I digress.

As for how to tell the difference between vinyl lettering and screened, it’s difficult. Are there very sharp angles to the letters? That might indicate that the letters were cut and pressed as opposed to screened which the angles are slightly less sharp. That Darryl Morrison photo you posted earlier, I would say vinyl. Don’t really know why unless he was acquired in during the season and the club was forced to create a makeshift nameplate. Nobody to my knowledge has screening equipment in a clubhouse, but everybody has a heatpress to do things on the fly.

Here is the jersey they made for Shuler when he was drafted. It’s vinyl but he had screened letters on his gamer.

Nice pic! Funny how the color is not even close. I had a similar problem with color when I had my nameplate screened for my retail Authentic Monk jersey (which is pretty much exactly like a gamer). The company I worked with could not copy the exact color. I think it was some sort of trademark issue. Weird.

Here is one more look at today's lesson. From the 1989 highlight film is the last home game vs. SD then the last game vs. Seattle. Against SD, predominantly RA, and against Seattle almost completely MSK. If the video is clear enough, Art Monk is seen actually wearing the RA while everyone else is in the MSK's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly6H6V9Ois4

Here is another source of the video in case YouTube blasts the other one.

Unfortunately, most of my Redskins admiration has come from afar (NY, then Florida) but I tried to pay attention to everything I see and make a mental note to the point where I can spout easily on the subject. Always good to have a refresher, though, that way I end up remembering things like no Starters in red until 1992. Also, I’m not totally sure I could have told you that Lachey & Riggs were wearing the MSK before anyone else did until I carefully perused the cards as I did. Always learning.

Although having two manufacturers seem very unusual by today’s standards, back then it was pretty much up to the club as to which companies they would use. Also remember what I stated earlier, that Starter never actually made the jerseys that their logo was on, so it’s all a game anyway. Isn’t it still the case with Reebok? They don’t make ‘em, just put the logo on a Ripon jersey, right. That’s your territory.

Yes. My assumption is, Ripon has been making them since '91. Starter and Wilson and Adidas and Reebok have simply enjoyed having their logo on them. And by the way, when MSK was making them for the 1990 season and a few games in '89, those jerseys were apparently being made in the same factory that Ripon would later make them in, since Ripon acquired MSK. I mention this in post #1.

I am VERY envious of your inventory BTW. Not just the quantity, but quality. I only have a few jerseys and only couple that I wear, because if it isn’t real (or match real), I won’t put it on. The only three in my wearing rotation are a 1992 red Rypien Starter jersey, a 2000 white Brad Johnson Adidas jersey and the M&N Sam Huff. The Huff is most like a replica in that it was not made to game specs, but I’ll give them credit, they (M&N) did a great job and with the exception of a minor issue with the shape of the TV numbers, it’s right on. My Brad Johnson is exactly like your Brad in red. Even had the sleeved cut and hemmed. Your white Brad, although sold to you as “authentic” is pretty bogus. I bought it from Shop NFL back in 2001 based on the photo they used which was right and got the one you have. I sent it back with photo evidence of why their claim of “authentic” and “what the players wear” was neither. I can only imagine what they said, “What a tight ass!” But I got my refund.

Again, anytime you want photo opinions, I’ll be glad to take a stab.

Yep. That white 2000 authentic is a joke. I bought that directly from the store at redskins.com. I ordered both the burgundy and the white at the same time. When I received the jerseys, I emailed them and asked why is the burgundy missing the NFL logo, and why is the white jersey so very much different than the burgundy?

They never replied.

I could have returned them. But for $39.95 each, I figured WTF and kept them both. In fact, later, I had so much trouble finding good fabric for my Monk nameplate, I ended up cutting out the inside shoulder area of the white Johnson jersey, and using it. It matched the Monk exactly.

Dexter in 1989. Only times I've seen these unusual support sleeves on him was in '89. Using the jersey as a guide, can only be '88 or '89.

What do you mean by "support sleeves"? Do you mean the way they seem to be drawn in to the arm? It looks to me like a draw string or something is sewn in at the seam. I wonder if this is manufactured this way, or if it's a customization done by the team?

I really think this was 1990, not later.

It couldn't have been 1990 because they didn't wear the NFL logo until 1991. Right?

1997

This sure looks like a Starter jersey with Wilson tags. Look at the Terry Allen photo below, does his 21 look like the same shaping as this 37? Can't explain how this can happen, but I think it did nonetheless.

Don't think so, bro. There's plenty of pics on jamd.com that show the team wearing Wilson in '97. Look at the shoulders. They're quilted with verticle seams across the top. Just like Allen's jersey. Starter jerseys were never that way, to my knowledge. Also, the owner of the jersey is a member here and he says it's a Wilson. See post #84.

I do see what you mean though, re the font. REDSKINS8181 claims it was team issued used for photo shoots when Larry Centers was signed in early 1999. Maybe they had this jersey hanging around, so they used it. Maybe it was a blank, so they put the numbers on themselves and didn't use the same font used in '97?

...1999-2001

Redskins jerseys began carrying the Adidas logo in 1999. Jerseys were nylon. However, the fabric in the side panels was made of verticle and horizontal spandex thread, which is consistent with past years. The seam across the chest fell below the neckline on loose sleeved jerseys and the seam was aligned above the NFL shield on the tight-sleeve jerseys. Numbers were screened.

Letters were screened onto a nameplate

Really? I know you have one right there but it seemds to me that on the 1999-2000 jerseys the letters were vinyl pressed on to the name plate, no?

Actually, I'm using "screened" as a synonym. It could very well have been heat pressed.

I don't even know if I want to get into the whole heat-pressed vs screened mess. Can you imagine trying to figure that out, year by year, game by game? Maybe I'll save that mess for later.

This is the one I sent back. I normally don't do such things, but I was so pissed.

Don't blame you.

My Brad is exactly like this one, only in white and it did come with the NFL shield.]

I'm jealous. I need to get one and put it on mine. I can't imagine why mine is missing it. It's a cool jersey though. Not often you can get a Ripon Redskins jersey by retail for $39.95. The fact is though, both redskins.com and nfl.com could do a heck of a better job with their retail stuff. If the redskins had advertised this jersey as being a Ripon jersey, or even a game cut jersey, they would have sold a lot more, or at least sold them quicker. Just displaying them as "Authentic" is kinda dumb.

That Johnson lettering is vinyl pressed on. Whether that is what was on gamers in 99-00 I can't say for sure but that is what my impression was.

Looks like you're right. I'll take a closer look.

...2002-present

Like him or not as a QB, gotta love they way he wore his jersey. I think it should be a rule that at least one player (punter, kicker, whomever) has to wear the full sleeve stripes.

Yeah, the Lloyd jersey is similar, although his sleeves may be a bit wider. Are you familiar with this site? http://www.josportsco.com/view_product.asp?ProductID=525

Jason has certainly had a hard time making up his mind on open or cuffed sleeves.

Yeah he did. I sold my Brunell which had similar sleeves, but bought a Hamdan which are the same. Hamdan's are a lot cheaper than Brunells. And although Hamdan didn't make it with the Redskins, he went on and picked up NFL Europe's Offensive MVP one season which is kinda cool.

These jerseys are for ****.

Which is why I don't own one.

When I go to games here in Tampa, I do not see one single jersey out of hundreds, perhaps thousands that I would classify as "authentic" and judging by what I see on TV the same holds true in DC.

Well, if you ever do see one, it's mine, and I'm wearing it.

I ask people I know who are "guilty" of this and they don't seem to give a ****. They also "buy" the line that they are sold an authentic jersey eventhough any idiot can look at it and know the difference.

Yep.

Mark, you and I are among a very rare breed. To the folks at NFL.com, we are just buzzing flies to be brushed aside as quickly as possible. Because more folks don't demand what is right and real, it'll never be worth their while to provide it.

So true. I got into this late. I didn't even start buying jerseys until like '03. I was happy wearing an old classic Joe Gibbs sweater or a Redskins polo shirt to the games. When I finally decided to buy a jersey, I knew I wanted a good one. My plan was to buy one good one. Haha.

But when I started researching it, that is when I learned the truth: Authentics are not authentic, and real authentics (gamers) are NOT available at nfl.com. And that ad with the fan hiding in a equipment bag is actually what needs to be done because you can't get what you want at nfl.com, even if they say you can. You actually DO have to hide in an equipment bag if you want real stuff.

[lwiedy]

Don't know how to reply to your reply and have the photos show, so I'll do it this way!

All I meant about "support sleeves" was those goofy things over his biceps and forearms. I only saw these ridiculous things in '89 and was only using them as a point of reference to date the photo.[/color]

Wow, major brain fart by me calling it 1990. It's not 1991 because the numbers are "better" than the really weird numbers that were on the 1991 Starters (see below). They started getting them right in 1992.

My issue here is not that the Skins didn't wear Wilson in '97, that's irrefutable.

I just have a major problem with this actually being MADE by Wilson as part of the set that was used in '97, which the tags imply. The explanation that it was used in '99 as a presentation jersey says anything is possible in terms of its evolution.

Also, there little chance it was blank and the club put the #37. Without being able to examine it closely, those number (especially the TV numbers) looked screened. That is only done at the factory. The key factor for me is the #3 on the sleeve. That is without a doubt a "Ripon/Sand-Knit" 3. Wilson's were taller, more narrow variety.

My guess it was part of the '96 Starter set, not used, then re-tagged for potential use in '97. Stuck around for the Center's thing in '99. That's my story and sticking to it

You are missing a shield? PM me with an address and I'll send you one, you deserve it!

[Mark The Homer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark The Homer

Don't know how to reply to your reply and have the photos show, so I'll do it this way!

All I meant about "support sleeves" was those goofy things over his biceps and forearms. I only saw these ridiculous things in '89 and was only using them as a point of reference to date the photo.

Wow, major brain fart by me calling it 1990. It's not 1991 because the numbers are "better" than the really weird numbers that were on the 1991 Starters (see below). They started getting them right in 1992.

Well, I use the "1" for reference. And the funny curve on Monk's 1 was in place there from 1991 - 1996. See Terry Allen in 1996.

My issue here is not that the Skins didn't wear Wilson in '97, that's irrefutable.

I just have a major problem with this actually being MADE by Wilson as part of the set that was used in '97, which the tags imply. The explanation that it was used in '99 as a presentation jersey says anything is possible in terms of its evolution.

Also, there little chance it was blank and the club put the #37. Without being able to examine it closely, those number (especially the TV numbers) looked screened. That is only done at the factory. The key factor for me is the #3 on the sleeve. That is without a doubt a "Ripon/Sand-Knit" 3. Wilson's were taller, more narrow variety.

My guess it was part of the '96 Starter set, not used, then re-tagged for potential use in '97. Stuck around for the Center's thing in '99. That's my story and sticking to it

Hmm. Well, I'd like to hear some input from REDSKINS8181. How is it possible that the jersey is part of the 1996 Starter set when the jersey has the verticle seams on top of the shoulders? It seems to me the seams prove it's a Wilson.

You're right, there's definitly something going on with the font. Also, the Wilson logo seems to be missing from the right sleeve. Maybe it's folded back.

You are missing a shield? PM me with an address and I'll send you one, you deserve it!

You've got them just laying around huh? PM follows...

[HOGnificent]

Thanks for the research and information Mark, you are quite the historian. I :applause: you man. I have 1 authentic 70th and all my others are replicas. All but 1 replica including my #21 pro bowl, came from the Redskins store. My Cooley was a gift from Modells. I will admit though that growing up my Mom did have a JC Penny's account so my childhood jerseys were off the Penny's rack.:doh:

[Mark The Homer]

Thanks for the research and information Mark...

And thank-you for the kind words.

EDIT:

lweidy - I need your opinion - because this new information throws a monkey wrench into a theory I have. Or had.

We know the retail authentics don't look anything like gamers. We know the sleeves are completely wrong. So why don't the retail manufacturers make retail jerseys with the cuffed/striped sleeves?

My theory was the sleeve was patented. Since it's patented, the retail manufacturers, who are different from the gamer manufacturers, weren't able to make the sleeves without violating the patent. Twenty years later, nothing has changed because the patent is still in place.

But now, you're telling me the jerseys in 1988 are Russell Athletic jerseys. And I admit I can see differences compared to 1989. And these 1988 jerseys were the first snug/striped sleeve ever seen on a Redskins jersey.

So now what? Did Russell have the patent too? If a patent exists, Russell must have had it first.

See? Now it's a big mess.

Maybe the patent theory is a load of crap. If there's actually no patent, then why don't the retailer manufacturers make those sleeves?

Maybe the sleeves are too expensive to manufacture for retailers? That would seem silly, considering the ridiculous retail price of the so-called Authentics.

What do you think?

[lwiedy]

lweidy - I need your opinion - because this new information throws a monkey wrench into a theory I have. Or had.

We know the retail authentics don't look anything like gamers. We know the sleeves are completely wrong. So why don't the retail manufacturers make retail jerseys with the cuffed/striped sleeves?

My theory was the sleeve was patented. Since it's patented, the retail manufacturers, who are different from the gamer manufacturers, weren't able to make the sleeves without violating the patent. Twenty years later, nothing has changed because the patent is still in place.

But now, you're telling me the jerseys in 1988 are Russell Athletic jerseys. And I admit I can see differences compared to 1989. And these 1988 jerseys were the first snug/striped sleeve ever seen on a Redskins jersey.

So now what? Did Russell have the patent too? If a patent exists, Russell must have had it first.

See? Now it's a big mess.

Maybe the patent theory is a load of crap. If there's actually no patent, then why don't the retailer manufacturers make those sleeves?

Maybe the sleeves are too expensive to manufacture for retailers? That would seem silly, considering the ridiculous retail price of the so-called Authentics.

What do you think?

Very interesting question. I really don’t think patent issues are at play. I can’t tell you the evolution of the “cuffed sleeve” but I know the Giants were “cuffing” in the early ‘70’s. See attached:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1973-PETE-GOGOLAK-MINT-9-GIANTS-368_W0QQitemZ350036146907QQihZ022QQcategoryZ60570QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That is a Sank-Knit jersey btw.

Theory 1 why….: They just don’t care. Probably not, but don’t rule it out.

Theory 2 why….: It’s not part of the Skins “official” design. Even though 99% of the Skins players’ cuff, the “official” design calls for the full stripes and open sleeves so that’s what we get. Since I really don’t concern myself with anything but Skins jerseys, I wonder how other teams are handled. I think of Jacksonville, the cuff seems almost integral to their design. Would you get cuffed?

Theory 3 why….: Cuffed sleeves are just one more variable when a customer is considering sizing. Perhaps they are driven by a “one size fits all” attitude. I never heard of a guy returning a jersey because “my arms won’t fit through the sleeves” and that is something that actually could happen with cuffed sleeves.

Theory 4 why….: Cost. Not so much in terms of the material but labor. Its two more processes for some poor Chinaman to do. I do know for a fact when the California Angels baseball club wanted to add a halo to the top of their cap in the early ‘90’s to mimic what they had in the late ‘60’s they were discouraged by New Era for retail purposes. This isn’t hearsay either, I knew a rep for the company and was told this directly.

These are of course theories and with little or no facts, they are worth about the price of membership to this site;)

If you want an ANSWER to this question, you will have to get a friend with the company and get him to spill the beans. How is this done? Go to a merchandise show (Super Show in Atlanta, etc.) and buddy up to a rep. In the five or so years I worked on Minor League Baseball’s winter trade show I learned a lot this way. It’s the first place I heard of Ripon in relations to the Skins jerseys. A Starter rep named Charlie Smith (nice guy) told me about the process and he was the guy who sent me that ’94 Brooks throwback, too.

Btw, I admire your zeal to find out why this travesty is being perpetrated , but you seem to have sidestepped the issue quite well. You just visit the teamstore and pick up a gamer. Problem solved.

[REDSKINS8181]

About the '97 Wilson-I can't find any sign that the Starter logos (which would have been embroidered at the factory) have been removed and replaced by Wilson logos. I think it would be very difficult to acheive that without leaving some sign that they were removed. Also, the Starter gamers that I've run across had Ripon tags on the interior side seam, while this one does not. But one thing is true, and it stood out right away to me...there is in fact only one sleeve with the Wilson logo, and it is embroidered.

The shoulder panels are quilted, and I haven't run across any Starter or MacGregors that had that feature, but I certainly don't claim to have your level of knowledge regarding the characteristics of certain manufacturers' jerseys, which is amazing!

Hope this helps.

[Mark The Homer]

Good theories. I don't see flaws in any of them. Thanks. I'm kinda disappointed because I thought I had it all figured out. I will continue to work on this mystery.

You're right about the Giants 70s jersey, but that cuff doesn't have the stripes incorporated in it. That's what really stands out. The retail authentics have been putting cuffs on their jeseys for at least a year, maybe two, but they look stupid because they don't have the stripes.

BTW, I have a Brooks too. Haha. Bought it a couple months ago. It's just an authentic, but still kinda cool (and cheap).

Look a couple posts up. I asked what you think about the Wilson seams on top of the shoulders.

Thanks again

[Mark The Homer]

About the '97 Wilson-I can't find any sign that the Starter logos (which would have been embroidered at the factory) have been removed and replaced by Wilson logos. I think it would be very difficult to acheive that without leaving some sign that they were removed. Also, the Starter gamers that I've run across had Ripon tags on the interior side seam, while this one does not. But one thing is true, and it stood out right away to me...there is in fact only one sleeve with the Wilson logo, and it is embroidered.

The shoulder panels are quilted, and I haven't run across any Starter or MacGregors that had that feature, but I certainly don't claim to have your level of knowledge regarding the characteristics of certain manufacturers' jerseys, which is amazing!

Hope this helps.

That is weird.

So we have a jersey which has

• Shoulder panels (indicating 1997 Wilson)
  
• Embroidered logo (indicating Wilson)
  
• But only one logo (inconsistent with a gamer, exception Starter in 1991)
  
• Cuffed striped sleeves (consistent with a gamer)
  
• Odd number font (appears closer to Starter font than Wilson font)
  
• Interior tagging different than typical Ripon tagging on Starter jerseys
  

I think it has to be a Ripon jersey - just because of the shoulder panels. I've never heard of anybody else doing that. And that also makes me think it's a Wilson. Unless lweidy can come up with a photo showing panels on a Starter. But I bet he can't.

I don't know. But my guess is, it was a blank Wilson, and they left off the second logo by mistake. And the numbers were attached later.

:whoknows:

Sorry Redskins8181. Not trying to diss your jersey. Just trying to figure stuff out.

[lwiedy]

Look a couple posts up. I asked what you think about the Wilson seams on top of the shoulders.

Ok, I look at that vertical seem as something that an equipment manager can send out and have the club’s local tailor add on at the request of him or a player.

I can (and won’t) get over the difference in the numbers. Unless numbers are sewn on or heat pressed (which can be done after it leaves the factory), that is to me is the overwhelming indicator of the manufacturer of an item. If they have adopted a certain style (which Ripon does), it almost becomes a trademark. Ok, not in a legal sense but for identification purposes.

This exists in baseball, as well. On Uniwatch, folks often refer to “Red Sox numbers” as their distinctive style of numbering they’ve used for years. They are in fact McAuliffe numbers. They made team jerseys for years and that style was always used by them. Since McAuliffe is a Boston based company, the Sox used them longer than most other teams and those number became synonymous with the Sox and were used (probably at the request of the club) even when they switched companies.

I just reviewed the 1997 highlight film and video highlight reel from the entire ’97 season and did not see one other jersey that matched the number style used on that particular jersey. I discovered you “stash” of photos (Getty Image), reviewed the entire ’97 catalog and again had not one match.

Bottom line for me on this is it’s much easier to switch a couple of tags, add a couple of seems then it is to screen completely different shaped numbers on a jersey. I mean, screened numbers are irremovable and no other Wilson jersey has those numbers, what is the more logical answer? That’s a Ripon jersey redone with Wilson tags (IMO).

[lwiedy]

First of all, no one’s dissing the jersey, that’s not the point. I believe it’s an anomaly with probably a story behind it but to say it was completely manufactured by Wilson Sporting Goods for use in the 1997 season is ignoring some pretty strong evidence.

In response to R-8181, he has the jersey so that gives him a leg up, provided he is looking for the right things. He said the Wilson logo is embroidered, does that mean it’s sewn completely through the fabric (like the Adidas logo was)? When it’s inside out do you see the complete Wilson logo (backwards) or just the outline of thread that attached the logo?

To the best of my knowledge, all tags on the 1991-1996 Starter jerseys were not embroidered into the fabric but patches that were sewn directly on to jersey thus making it relatively easily to move. Even the inside tag can be remove if you know how.

I think you guy are putting way too much stock in those shoulder panels. If you’re saying “that’s a Wilson thing” Here are three guys that don’t have them:

I’m telling you that’s all part of the customizing of jerseys. Players all ask for tailoring to suit their needs and it’s done locally. Paul Lucas’s at UW has done profiles on the dry cleaner that does all the tailoring of New York Giants jerseys. Believe it or not, it’s a little old lady doing the sewing. Wilson Sporting Goods is located in Chicago, you can’t keep sending stuff back and forth when a player wants something done. It’s reasonable to say that those sort of alterations would be done locally independent of Wilson thus they would not be indigenous to Wilson jerseys. Because Terry Allen had it in 1997 and not 1996 might just indicate that this was a new process and Allen was employing it for the first time. Since not everyone did it, it would certainly indicate that it was not part of the standard production process.

I have tried to provided at least reasonable possibilities for the differences that exist but I’ve yet to hear a similar explanation of how numbers that aren’t on ANY other Wilson jerseys ended up on this one. I mean, help me see the light guys!

[Skins_Throwback]

fake or real?

from here ---> http://www.ptfsports.com/football.htm

[lwiedy]

fake or real?

from here ---> http://www.ptfsports.com/football.htm

Well, without impinging on Mark’s territory, I’ll give you the problems I have with it. Ignoring the fact that Riggo never came close to wearing Adidas jerseys and the sleeve stripes are far too narrow for anything Riggins would have worn (’79-’85) and the NOB style is also wrong (s/b full block letters, that means serifs on the top and bottom of the letters) it’s fine. The numbering looks good. Lots of money. I haven’t quite figured out what qualifies as real or fake by this sites standard but there are issues with this jersey.