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The hypocrisy of Hillary (FL and MI delegates)


Popeman38

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I think that these items need to be addressed, in a non-partisan way:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/070831_Final_Pledge.pdf

Relevant portion:

THEREFORE, I (Hillary Clinton), Democratic Candidate for President, pledge

I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential

election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa,

Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as “campaigning” is defined by

rules and regulations of the DNC.

Hillary explaining her decision to sign the pledge:
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=3134

We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process.

And we believe the DNC’s rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role.

Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar."

Hillary Campaign after MI primary:
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=5219

"Tonight Michigan Democrats spoke loudly for a new beginning," then-campaign manager Patti Solis Doyle exulted over Clinton's victory there on Jan. 15. "Your voices matter. And as president, Hillary Clinton will not only keep listening, but will make sure your voice is always heard."

The beginning of the mess:
http://www.slate.com/id/2188985

On Aug. 25, when the DNC's rules panel declared Florida's primary date out of order, it agreed by a near-unanimous majority to exceed the 50 percent penalty called for under party rules. Instead, the group stripped Florida of all 210 delegates to underscore its displeasure with Florida's defiance and to discourage other states from following suit. In doing so, the DNC essentially committed itself, for fairness' sake, to strip the similarly defiant Michigan of all 156 of its delegates three months later. Clinton held tremendous potential leverage over this decision, and not only because she was then widely judged the likely nominee. Of the committee's 30 members, a near-majority of 12 were Clinton supporters. All of them—most notably strategist Harold Ickes—voted for Florida's full disenfranchisement. (The only dissenting vote was cast by a Tallahassee, Fla., city commissioner who supported Obama.)

I seriously do not know how anyone can look at the situation and support her case for FL and MI to count. Especially when she signed a no campaign or prticipation pledge in regards to MI. And then snubbed the process and left her name on the ballot.
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What you outline above is merely a lie. Something we've grown accustomed to from the Clintons. However, even more hypocritical in my mind is that she claims to not count the votes in MI and FL would disenfranchise those voters and yet at the same time she wants to NOT count the results from the caucus states. :wtf:

And Hillary supporters say we won't vote for her because she's a woman. :rolleyes: I won't vote for her because she's got twice the brains of Bill along with the same level of integrity and sense of fair play. That's a bad combo in my book.

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Wow -- I guess I really had my head in the sand when this happened. So, moreorless, the primaries in Florida and Michigan were not counted?

That is a pretty big deal when the margin of delegates between the two dem candidates are so slim. Especially if the currently losing candidate would have gained substantial delegates in both.

However, the bottomline for the DNC is: are we picking the candidate that the majority of our party supports for the upcoming election? And secondarily, are we picking the candidate that the majority of the electorate will support in the upcoming election.

I think Obama gets the nod on the first count regardless of MI and FL, and neither DNC candidate gets the nod in the full election comes November.

The only thing the FL/MI issue accomplishes (from Hillary's or the DNC's point of view) is possibly disenfranchise part of their voting base. However, I think given the types usually voting in party's primaries, they'll probably forget about this episode in 4 years anyways, and it really will be much ado about nothing.

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She's already lost and everyone knows it. Obama isn't even talking about her much anymore, he's talking about McCain. He has the majority of delegates already and will most likely have the majority of super delegates by the first week of June.

She can cry about FL and MI all day and night... won't matter.

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She campaigns like a Republican.

Unless you were trying to be funny, that's the kind of comment I'd expect from Sarge, ND, or Kilmer....just the polar opposite obviously. That's exactly the kind of attitude Obama is running against.

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Unless you were trying to be funny, that's the kind of comment I'd expect from Sarge, ND, or Kilmer....just the polar opposite obviously. That's exactly the kind of attitude Obama is running against.

Maybe this is more reflective of Obama, but Obama has said a few times that Hillary is campaigning like a Republican.

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She's already lost and everyone knows it. Obama isn't even talking about her much anymore, he's talking about McCain. He has the majority of delegates already and will most likely have the majority of super delegates by the first week of June.

She can cry about FL and MI all day and night... won't matter.

The only difference it might make is in making the MI and FL voters feel even more disenfranchised by the party than they already do.

You are right that it's likely not going to help her, but it could hurt Obama's chances once he wins the nomination.

Pelosi and Dean need to tell her to shut the hell up. Of course, they should have nipped this situation in the bud months ago, so I expect they'll continue to waffle their way all the way to the convention.

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Pelosi and Dean need to tell her to shut the hell up. Of course, they should have nipped this situation in the bud months ago, so I expect they'll continue to waffle their way all the way to the convention.
Pelosi and Dean have been praying that Hillary bows out so they can seat the delegates. If she doesn't they can't. She certainly has become a pariah within the democratic leadership. The irony is that when Kennedy dies, she will arguably be the most powerful Dem. Senator. It is then that I would hate to be a superdelegate who did not pledge to her.
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Of course she's being a hypocrit. That shouldn't surprise anyone.

I find this whole scenario amusing. Its like Florida of 2000 and Ohio of 2004, but this time there are some Democrats saying that 'Every vote shouldn't count'.

I agree this shouldn't surprise anyone. We're talking about the Clinton-machine here which was the ultimate machine comparable to the GOP's Bush-machine. They're pure politicians and nothing more.

The comparison here to Florida of 2000 and Ohio of 2004 is hard to make. Although they would appear to be the same they're in fact totally different.

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Okay, let's set the scene in context.

This is a Primary for Democratic (and Republican) Parties to select the Nominee for their party.

I am not aware of any law that mandates that any Party has to allow anyone to vote for this purpose. They could equally use duels, physical competition, a chess match, a game of poker, or a random selection process (pin the tail on the Donkey anyone?).

These two parties have rules set for the process. The states agreed to abide by the rules, as did the candidates, and the rules are enforced with punishments for failure to do so.

Michigan and Florida (for whatever reasons) violated the rules governing their voting time slots (and let's face it, the voters in those states didn't directly vote for those changed times, their elected state governments did it to them). However, MI and FL were not the only states to move their date, and the majority of the DNC (including both candidates) did not object to their harsh punishment at that time.

For the record, the Republican Party also punished Florida (I am not sure about MI) with half their delegate seats.

All of the candidates knew that they were supposed to withdraw their names, and not campaign in those states. It certainly didn't bother anyone at that time that voters might or would be disenfranchised by the actions of their state government and the DNC.

I would love to see a live "let's get this issue settled once and for all, right now" between Howard Dean and the Govenors of both states, and HC and BO. Have Judge Judy or one of those other TV justices reivew the evidence and tongue whip all of these idiots.

The bottom line is that Hillary has no credibility at this point in time raising the issue. She had a marvelous platform and time to do this very speach, at the point when the candidates were told to withdraw their names and not campaign there.

Doing it now shows two things:

1. She wants to win more than anything else (ever).

2. She will destroy anything and everything in her conquest to acheive the first item (including her own party).

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Unless you were trying to be funny, that's the kind of comment I'd expect from Sarge, ND, or Kilmer....just the polar opposite obviously. That's exactly the kind of attitude Obama is running against.
Maybe this is more reflective of Obama, but Obama has said a few times that Hillary is campaigning like a Republican.

In context, he said she campaigned like a Republican when she was doing the 3 am ads trying to exploit people's fears. I think these are apples and oranges

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Are you saying that Hillary should put the party before the people that voted?

No. We're saying she already did several months ago. Right not the only thing she's putting before the people that voted is herself.

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