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ATTN: Visiting Jets Fans ... The Official "Bash Laveranues Coles" Thread


Om

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i have mixed emotions about this whole deal...not the deal itself coles is a steal, but what is becoming of it...part of me is reluctant to engage in this bitter war on the jets, just because recent history it hasn't been in our favor to make it personal with other teams, I.E. 49ers....but part of me thinks that this is great, were pissing teams off and were taking names. I mean this is what spurrier brings to the table...he creates this buzz that places him, the redskins, in the main event. He did it in florida, he did it when he called out dallas upon his arrival to the District, and now snyder has essentially egged him on to do it again. I think it brings out the best in the ol' ball coach, thats y he walks and talks with that ****y swagger that almost makes you love him or hate him...its like he's not just playing to win, but he's playing for bragging right , for pride....but that same egotistical pride that seems to empower spurrier, has proven time and again to be the downfall of snyder. Hail Skins!

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Art, the Jets have lost players this offseason, we probably aren't as strong as we were at the end of the 2002 season but I still feel we're better than the Redskins.

We know what we have in Pennington, you can't say for sure what you have in Ramsey, even though I think he'll get the job done with all the help the Skins have gotten him this offseason.

Our o-line, even with the loss of Thomas, is still a solid veteran o-line. The Jets added Tom Nutten to replace Thomas.

The Skins are stronger at the wr position, no doubt about that but Wayne Chrebet is not a 3rd/slot wr, the man has been a starter his entire career with the New York Jets.

In Curtis Martin, Lamont Jordan and Chad Morton we have one of the best/deepest backfields in the NFL.

Morton-Moss might be the best kick return tandem in the NFL.

We'll probably have two-three new starters on our defense in 2003, that's a whole lot better than the six new starters we had entering 2002. Our defense played very well the 2nd half of the season, they were ranked in the top five during that stretch.

As for the Jets 9-7 record in 2002, BRUTAL SCHEDULE. The AFC East played the AFC West in 2002, probably the two toughest divisions, top-to-bottom in the NFL. Not one team had a losing record in either division.

I feel getting the NFC East and AFC South in 2003 will help a lot.

We have lots of ????'s, our kicking situation looks shaky right now, wr, we don't know what we're going to get in the draft but I feel we have less question marks than the Skins.

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But the Redskins would have had to part with the 13th pick to get Price, too. The Bills were going to get a first round pick in return, regardless. It just so happens that the Falcons were the only team willing to pony up to get him. Based on your premise, the team could have traded their first to the Bills for Price AND a second rounder. I doubt that would have been the case.

The difference in signing bonus is due to the fact that it had to be higher to dissuade the Jets from matching, since Coles was an RFA signing and Price was a trade. Again, I don't have the contract breakdowns, but I didn't think there was a $1M difference in cap figures over the first few years. I was under the impression that those figures were pretty close. And, for the record, I thought BOTH signing bonuses were too high. I don't like giving a WR that kind of money.

Obviously, the team valued Coles more than Price. They could apparently have traded for Price and given him a similar contract w/o going through the hassle of an RFA signing. The fact they didn't tells me that they were not all that serious about Price to begin with. They certainly upped the ante with Coles.

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Originally posted by baralufficus

I have been visiting that site , and boy are they a touchy group ...I think i got the whole board pissed ....and it feels so good...

HTTR!!

YEa, I was reading your posts over there. You carried yourself very well. no "nah nah nah nah, we got Coles" :laugh: It all seemed very factual and accurate,

They didn't seem to appreciate your opinion. Some showed that they were in posession of more than a double digit IQ, but not many! :no:

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GG, let me respond within...

"Art, the Jets have lost players this offseason, we probably aren't as strong as we were at the end of the 2002 season but I still feel we're better than the Redskins."

Again, to repeat, you were just two games better than the Redskins last year. Last year the Redskins were breaking in 30+ new players. Only five players knew what to do this time a year ago as everyone was new to the systems. We were breaking in a rookie QB. Despite all of these factors, you were just two games better, and now, none of these factors exist. The majority of the team is stable within the system. We're returning 19 of 22 starters, with some of them now in reserve. The simple stability from one year to the next could be expected to close any difference there was. And, the players you lost directly to the Redskins would fairly obviously tilt the balance as of this moment in time.

"We know what we have in Pennington, you can't say for sure what you have in Ramsey, even though I think he'll get the job done with all the help the Skins have gotten him this offseason."

Yes, you know what you have in Pennington. And yes, Pennington is an advantage over the Redskins QB situation, one would suspect, at this moment in time. But, please remember that in the seven games Ramsey played substantially last year, the Redskins were a Top 10 offense. He was a rookie who had held out. He has a MUCH better arm than Pennington, and clearly has much better weapons. He's just a second year player, so, he could go either way, and much of what the Redskins can expect this year rests on his improvement.

"Our o-line, even with the loss of Thomas, is still a solid veteran o-line. The Jets added Tom Nutten to replace Thomas."

Your o-line may be solid even with the loss of Thomas. Our o-line is made very solid with the addition of Thomas. Legitimately you won't dispute that the Redskins are better than the Jets at left tackle, right guard and right tackle. Samuels, Thomas and Jansen represent a superior three compared to Fabini, Nutten and McKenzie. I'd rate Fiore and Szott a relative push and I'd give you a big advantage at center. We're, presently, much deeper than you as well. So, here is where the balance tilts to the Redskins. Last year you would have had a stronger line than us. Now you clearly do not.

"The Skins are stronger at the wr position, no doubt about that but Wayne Chrebet is not a 3rd/slot wr, the man has been a starter his entire career with the New York Jets."

Another spot that was an advantage when the season ended for you, that is now a tremendous advantage for the Redskins. When we spoke of how the teams have changed, you need to look no further than these two positions. Built into your two game advantage last year was an advantage both along the offensive line and receiver spot. That advantage is now completely altered.

"In Curtis Martin, Lamont Jordan and Chad Morton we have one of the best/deepest backfields in the NFL."

Morton may yet be a Redskin, but, even as a Jet, he provides absolutely no KNOWN depth because he's done very little as an actual running back in the league. Clearly Martin gives you a big advantage at this spot. We have a question mark here, but, again, you had a big advantage here last year and the Redskins really aren't worse off than we were. Davis is gone, but, Davis kind of held the team back a little and didn't fit as well as any of the backs we have today. No doubt you are likely to get more production out of your running back than we are. But, let's not forget, that our running game blew your running game away even last year. With Betts and Watson just showing so well to close the season, it can be argued that while Martin is the best individual back on the field for our teams, that we were so far ahead of you last year as a running team, that unless you develop a fundamental shift toward running, since you've lost your best receiver, that this is a spot you can't feel comfortable about.

"Morton-Moss might be the best kick return tandem in the NFL."

Agreed. And they were last year. Meanwhile, we had one of the worst return games in football. We had Champ fumbling punt returns. We shuffled kick returners. Again, Morton may yet come to the Redskins, but, with or without the Redskins have attempted and will ultimately close the gap here because it couldn't be much wider than it was last year.

"We'll probably have two-three new starters on our defense in 2003, that's a whole lot better than the six new starters we had entering 2002. Our defense played very well the 2nd half of the season, they were ranked in the top five during that stretch."

I'm not completely thrilled with our defense in Washington, but, whether I like it or not, we were a Top 5 defense for the season. Not just a stretch. I understand your optimism though as in 2001 we had a stretch where we were dominating and that boosted how we felt heading into last year. Though I presently like your defensive line better than ours, you would probably still like our linebackers and secondary better than yours. If you didn't, you should :).

"As for the Jets 9-7 record in 2002, BRUTAL SCHEDULE. The AFC East played the AFC West in 2002, probably the two toughest divisions, top-to-bottom in the NFL. Not one team had a losing record in either division."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, didn't you have three games against playoff teams? I realize there was a general mediocrity in your schedule, but, it wasn't all that brutal. You played three games against teams that made the playoffs. In contrast, the Redskins played EIGHT games against teams that actually made the playoffs. I don't know that you want to put your schedule up as a shining light to be honest. You were two games better. You clearly had fewer games against the better teams in the league last year than we did. And, we've gotten better at spots we were worse than you last year. And we aren't a brand new team starting from scratch again. In the end, again, at this moment, you aren't going to win many comparisions with your team and ours. After the draft and June 1 free agency, get back to me.

"I feel getting the NFC East and AFC South in 2003 will help a lot."

How will it "help". Playing the NFC East gives you two teams that made the playoffs last year, including one good enough to have made the NFC Championship and have the best record in the league. The AFC South also had two playoff teams, including one good enough to have the best record in the AFC and who made it to the AFC Championship game. You may feel better about it, but, to be honest, until the games start no one really knows how things will shape up schedule wise.

"We have lots of ????'s, our kicking situation looks shaky right now, wr, we don't know what we're going to get in the draft but I feel we have less question marks than the Skins."

Ah, yes, the kicking situation. Like receiver and offensive line, which are spots you were MUCH better than we were a year ago that we are now better than you, kicker was a spot you were very much better than us and now we're better than you. Even if you even that up, it's STILL a gain for us considering how awful we had it. Thanks for reminding me :).

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What's up Skins fans - Jets fan here. This is my take on your roster raid:

Coles: His talent is undeniable and he's a definite upgrade for you. I'd have a couple of concerns if I were a Skins fan starting with the fact that you clearly paid above market. You guys are focused on the per year payout (still too high) - but it's the signing bonus that counts because that's what locks you in and commits you to your investment - his per year total in a vacuum means nothing. You doled out a top 10 signing bonus ever (top 2 historically for WRs) for a man with one good season. That's a huge risk - the guy can't be cut or traded so if he doesn't perform due to injury or any other reason, you're screwed.

Further evidence of overpaying: surprisingly, we learned today that the contract Coles received was actually higher than his initial asking price from the Jets - has it ever happened in the history of contract negotiations that a player gets over and above ask? Oh, and throw in that outstanding #13 draft pick in a strong draft and it's a very steep bill. I'll give Snyder the benefit of the doubt and presume that you purposefully overpaid to avoid a Jets match - but that's showing a ton of confidence, not only in a player, but also in his ability to impact the O. If Coles doesn't immediately establish himself as a top 3 WR in the NFC behind Moss and Owens, or put you in the NFC Champ game - he's not worth it, IMO.

As a WR, Coles benefited from a chemistry with Chad that began day 1 in camp in 2000. Once Chad took over, Coles emerged. How will Coles fare in a new offense with a new QB that doesn't lead the league in QB rating? I'll be interested to see. Also, don't look for Coles to be a red zone threat - that's not his strength. His complete disappearing act in the playoffs - the most important games in his career - was somewhat disturbing.

In addition, Coles thrived on playing with a chip on his shoulder. First it was not getting selected in the 1st round, then, that he deserved the big $. Will Coles find himself a new motivation - perhaps proving he was worth the $ paid or making the Pro Bowl, or will he go soft on $13M in guaranteed SB installments? Judging from his quote today "Just pay me the money", I'd be concerned. We'll have to see.

Coles is a solid WR, there's no doubt about it. It's not even debatable. But when the big chunks of salary double and roster bonus start coming due in 2006, and his bonus locks him into your roster, and his backloaded future salary leaves no slack for a restructure, you'll really have a chance to ponder his value. As an aside, I hope Randy Thomas also pans out since he's being paid as much as Mawae and like most left tackles, but don't expect much in short yardage - that's his achilles heel. He's definitely excellent on sweeps/pulls and is a emotional locker room presence though.

I admire Snyder's effort to make the Skins better, but I think most will be surprised if you can pull off a playoff appearance in a strengthening division without a proven RB OR QB, and with a stubborn college coach who lacks patience. Time will tell. I'm getting my tix for the opener - see you there.

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Has it occured to you that Pennington had great stats in large part because of guys like Randy Thomas and Coles? You are only as good as your supporting cast, and the Skins have inarguably improved the supporting cast for Ramsey. I think Ramsey is a gamer just like Pennington is. You'd have to give Pennington the edge right now in terms of game experience and decision-making. But I like Ramsey's upside and arm strength and see him being the superior QB in the long haul. And now he's going to have protection and speed at WR, just like Pennington had a year ago. We'll have an emphatic answer to this debate of Sept 4th, won't we?

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If you're crediting guard Randy Thomas for Pennington's success, I can tell you haven't been watching the Jets very closely. If you're curious to see Coles' ability to singlehandedly make an impact with a different QB - look no further than his stats under Vinny: 6 catches for 46 yds 0 TDs in 3 games.

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You're right, I haven't been watching the Jets closely. Guess what? This is a Skins board, hence I watch the Skins. I'm not trying to take anything away from Pennington. I've already said he's a good QB. But I think the effort to say Coles only had success because of Pennington is absurd. Its about complementary offensive players. Are you honestly arguing that the supporting offensive cast doesn't impact a QB's performance? Coles is a young player. He's got skills and speed and will continue to grow. Ramsey is a talented young QB. We'll see just how good a receiver Coles is for the Skins when next season comes. Until then its all just opinion. Or sour grapes. Take your pick.

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Read my post and please show me where I said Coles only had success because of Pennington. I only presented the facts and you're free to draw whatever conclusion you'd like. I'm sorry if some of the facts aren't comforting - but I've watched every snap of Coles's career, so I've got a pretty good grasp on his capabilities.

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Pennington at QB after 1 great season is a sure thing.

Coles at WR after 1 decent season, 1 good season and 1 great season remains an enigma.

Jets fans have a field day with Tom "Mr. Fraud" Brady - he of the 1 superb season - but when the same circumstances could present themselves with their own QB... it's unfathomable.

Pennington flops this year. So do the Jets.

The Jets have downgraded at all the positions they've had to fill. After coming off a 9-7 season... there wasn't much room for error.

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Originally posted by Flowtrain

As a WR, Coles benefited from a chemistry with Chad that began day 1 in camp in 2000. Once Chad took over, Coles emerged. How will Coles fare in a new offense with a new QB that doesn't lead the league in QB rating? I'll be interested to see.

If thats not what you were implying here then disregard my comments, but it certainly sounded like it? I don't doubt you know a great deal more about Coles than any of us here, its only natural. And overall, I think your comments were intelligent. But I think you also have to defer to us in the evaluation of Ramsey and our RB's upside. Anyone who has watched Ramsey and doesn't see his potential promise isn't watching closely. Its no different than what people said about Pennington early on. Obviously you never KNOW if a player pans out until they prove it on the field. My only point was that I think Coles continues to be the Coles of last year with the Skins because of the talent level around him. By the way, you are welcome here, I feel for Jets fans to an extent, but we have suffered for a decade so don't expect too much sympathy :cheers:

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Flowtrain, I have a question for ya.

You started out on this thread noting, if I read you right, that Coles as a player is really pretty damned good and would be missed in the Jets offense ("Coles: His talent is undeniable and he's a definite upgrade for you.") ... and that your main concern were you a Skins fan would have more to do with the money we paid for him than his skills and chance of contributing here. Is that fair?

If so ... I'm wondering why the discussion has now turned to kind of indirectly questioning those skills ("I'm sorry if some of the facts aren't comforting - but I've watched every snap of Coles's career, so I've got a pretty good grasp on his capabilities."). Sound like you're backtracking just a bit.

But that's actually not what I wanted to ask you about. You raise the question of Coles' productivity in big games (read: last year's playoffs) and cite that as a reason to be concerned. Okay, fair enough.

Do I take this to mean that having a promising young player come up short in a big game early in his career is something that gives you pause? 'Cause if so, I'm thinking you must be awfully concerned about young Mr. Pennington after his performance in the last game of the Jets' season last year. The one where the limitations on his arm strength were, to put it kindly, exposed.

I happen to like the kid -- I think he's a breath of fresh air and personable as hell. I also think he's bright and knows how to manage an offense. What I'd be concerned with as a Jet fan, I think, is whether or not the blueprint the Raiders gave the league in defending him is something that's going to rather dramatically throttle back his ascension to elite NFL QB status.

Defenses are going to force the man to go downfield this year, much like they figured out very quickly last year that to beat the Danny Wuerffel-led Skins you did precisely that.

Then again, maybe the one-game disappearing act Mr. Pennington suffered against the Raiders was just an anomaly and to be expected of a promising young player hitting the big stage for the first time.

You know? :)

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Om - don't view my comments on Coles as backtracking. I stand by my comments that he's a very solid WR - but player analysis is complicated to say the least. WR is unique in that the position is so reliant upon the rest of team - that's why I brought up the fact that Coles was useless when Vinny was at the helm.

It's not a knock on him - it's just fundamental to the position. Those WRs who can singlehandedly change a game like Owens and Moss are true elite and even if Coles is a borderline Pro Bowl talent, he's not in that upper crust of game-breakers. That's why it's fair to question the wisdom of the signing bonus investment that locks you into Coles for big $ long-term. IMO, that's only worthwhile for WRs that are truly irreplaceable top few NFL talent. With RBs in a run-based offense, or QBs in a QB-driven offense, it's an entirely different story. You have to pick your spots to spend.

As for your playoff scenario - don't put too much stock in that Coles comment. It caught my attention, but if anything Coles' disappearance in Oakland was due to Penny's bad day. However, it still proves my point that few WRs can change games.

As for Penny, don't forget he put up 41 v. Indy, and played better as the year went on and pressure mounted. That "weak-arm exposure" theory is amusing, but the bottom line was Penny had his worst game of the year. He couldn't hit FBs coming out of the backfield. The best QBs in history have had their share of bad playoff games (Montana included). What happened to the NFL MVP in the Super Bowl?

Chad's arm-strength is adequate though not admittedly not his strength. The list of outstanding QBs who didn't have cannon arms is endless. Give me a cannon QB v. one that is the most accurate in the league, is a smart strong leader, and one who doesn't make mistakes - I'll take the latter everytime. I hope you're right and teams play tight on Chad - Moss is more than capable of going deep, and Conway, if he has a strength, has shown he excels at the 40+ gainers. Check Chad's work with Randy Moss at Marshall - the long gains were their staple. I've got my concerns for the 2003 season - but Chad's not one of them.

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Originally posted by Die Hard

Pennington at QB after 1 great season is a sure thing.

Coles at WR after 1 decent season, 1 good season and 1 great season remains an enigma.

Jets fans have a field day with Tom "Mr. Fraud" Brady - he of the 1 superb season - but when the same circumstances could present themselves with their own QB... it's unfathomable.

Pennington flops this year. So do the Jets.

The Jets have downgraded at all the positions they've had to fill. After coming off a 9-7 season... there wasn't much room for error.

I have read a lot of the stuff over on Ganggreen.com too about Tom Brady and how they rag on him so bad, but they always fail to mention that one key stat, that unlike Pennington, he does have a BIG FAT Super Bowl ring :laugh:

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Originally posted by rdsknbill

YEa, I was reading your posts over there. You carried yourself very well. no "nah nah nah nah, we got Coles" :laugh: It all seemed very factual and accurate,

They didn't seem to appreciate your opinion. Some showed that they were in posession of more than a double digit IQ, but not many! :no:

The funny thing is , I never broke one rule or terms of agreement , and now i cant view that website for some reason ...lol....

I must have struck a nerve ....lol]

HTTR!!!

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Originally posted by baralufficus

The funny thing is , I never broke one rule or terms of agreement , and now i cant view that website for some reason ...lol....

I must have struck a nerve ....lol]

HTTR!!!

They gave you the boot??? :rofl: That is just too damn funny!!!

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Originally posted by baralufficus

The funny thing is , I never broke one rule or terms of agreement , and now i cant view that website for some reason ...lol....

I must have struck a nerve ....lol]

HTTR!!!

I seriously doubt you got the boot - the site was down for a while.

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Art, I've killed Snyder in the past but I like the moves he's made this offseason, they make sense.

I feel the Redskins have improved their team greatly, despite what the critics are saying. My Jets have taken a hit, yesterday they signed Doug Brien as their 'replacement' for Hall.

It's now official, our kicking game will SUCK in 2003.

They signed Curtis Conway two days ago, a ho-hum signing imo. We still have Santana Moss though, he's the X-factor for us at wr in 2003, if he breaks out we won't miss Coles at all, if he doesn't.....

Maybe I misspoke when I said the Jets were a better team than the Redskins.

I'd get into the schedule argument with you but none of that has any bearing on what the teams will do in 2003.

Both teams have ??'s heading into 2003, both teams have strengths, only time will tell who has the better team in 2003.

Later.

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GG,

Absolutely nothing in this response is troublesome to me. I'm glad to see that through dialog we can make you see the limb you were on initially and bring you around to moderated, thoughtful positions that show intellect and understanding of the information presented. Thank you for being a very worthy person to chat with :).

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While we're love-festing here ...

Flowtrain, I liked your response above as well. I appreciate the road-map you provided as to which of your earlier comments I should actually have put stock in and which I shouldn't. This is a valuable service that I hope you'll see fit to continue as we move forward. :)

As to Pennington ... I won't pretend to know the degree to which "Penny" can be effective going downfield nearly as well as you, as I have not watched but a handful of his games – both at Marshall and in New York. You are comfortable that the arm-strength question will not be a factor. Me, I've come to believe that the league - specifically the aggressiveness and speed of defensive personnel and schemes – has changed quite a bit in the last decade or so, and that arm strength has become a much much greater factor than it was in, say, Joe Montana's time. I'm not sure even Saint Joe in his prime, on an average team, would flourish any more. I truly think you need a gun AND and a brain. Maybe Chad's got enough of the latter to make up for what I perceive as a bit of a weakness in the former ... but I do have my doubts.

He also won't be an unknown quantity this year ... teams have had an offseason and a nice little vault of game films to see where his comfort zones are and where his areas of difficulty are. They ARE going to force him to prove he can go downfield effectively. You think he can, and you may be right. I think he's going to struggle ... and it is possible I may be right.

And he doesn't HAVE Randy Moss in New York, either. The Marshall games (and highlights of course) I saw where he and Moss kept hooking up deep were, indeed, beautiful to watch. Moss running free ... Chad having time to step up and lay it out there. Sometimes Chad simply laying it up there ... and the Freak going up and taking it away from overmatched corner. What I don't know that I've ever seen, though, is Chad make the downfield throws under duress, where the timing and smarts he possesses become less important than his ability to rifle a 25-yarder between two defenders off his back foot as a slobbering DE closes on him.

Maybe he can ... but I based on what I've seen, I have my doubts. You know what he needs, of course, don't you? A great line protecting him ... and a speedy WR. ;)

I know I ain't gonna change your mind about anything here, btw, any more than you're gonna change mine. But dammit, it's just so much fun to try to inject just the tiniest bit of doubt, ain't it? :)

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Originally posted by Dirk Diggler

What is this, a circle jerk?

What happened to the bloodthirsty Great White Art? :laugh:

Dirk,

What do you want from me man :).

The guy started the thread saying he's not going out on a limb to say the Jets are still a better team. He was provided information that has altered his stance to, a reasonable, who knows :). I don't beat the horse after it's broken in man. Only while it's bucking.

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Om - Obviously no QB is a sure thing in this league - there are doubts surrounding all of them. But many of your arguments cut both ways. You say Chad will no longer surprise anyone in his second year starting, but fail to point out the obvious benefits he'll reap by having a year of starting experience under his belt. Why is that?

I understand fans want to look for flaws in a young QB that, except for his last game, was remarkably flawless. It's natural. But when you watch Chad from the stands in the Meadowlands, and see every pass he's thrown, it's easy to realize the value of his complete QB package.

You get to see him make those deep throws on a rope (Coles in the Miami game - I can name many). He's fully capable. No QB lacking NFL arm strength is projected to go in the top 10 in the draft - ask Dorsey. But more often he takes mustard off his passes and relies on accuracy, touch and timing. It's a strength and it works effectively.

I also disagree that a cannon is necessary for success. Plenty of QBs have proven this wrong, including Penny last year. However, a much stronger argument can be made that mistake-free football is a lot more important. When you look at Chad's 22TDs to 6INTs, you don't see that 2 of those INTs came on Hail Mary's, 1 INT bounced off Becht's hands, and 1 was a wrong route by Moss. Now you're looking at 22TDs to 2INTs. He's an emotional leader that, most importantly, has the full confidence of his team.

Again, nobody knows what his future holds for Chad - nobody's putting him in Canton yet as Parcells likes to say. Nobody can say for sure how he'll fare in 2003. There are question marks with any QB - but as a Jets fan, I like his chances.

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