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Vinny Cerrato actually sounding quite sound...


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Lloyd has never been a Free Agent (hopefully he will be soon)

Lord I wish he had been.

Just putting your mis information to bed.

Sorry, I got that wrong. And actually I never stated we got him in free agency. Just that we overpayed him and that it drives up cost of players, which includes FA's. So, no need to put anything to bed.

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i think its just because of how truly bad those moves were. and we constantly have no draft picks because we trade them for garbage players. the team is managed in a dumb fashion and most of that falls down to vinny because hes the face of the front office.

i think since snyder took over we have drafted the least amount of players in football. and thats because we trade all the picks away for players that dont amount to much. couple that with giving away huge contracts to free agents that flop here, it all adds up in the long run.

well, you'll never catch me saying the ship is run perfectly. i do agree that we have made some stupid moves, but it also seems to me that often the bad overshadows the good. In terms of signings that have been positive for us, there's a lot more of them than failures.

It's just as you say, the failures are spectacular.

See: Archuletta, Adam

And while we do trade away our picks, I am of the thinking that people over-value draft picks. If you trade away an entire draft, obviously that's bad... but if you manage to use them to acquire good young vets as opposed to young unproven rookies, then it's not so bad.

But, as above, we occasionally use them on something spectacularly stupid. See: Llloyd, Brandon.. Morton, Chad.

Other times we use a pick on a guy and it turns out to be a terrific (if somewhat unheralded) move

See: Thomas, Randy (as I recall he was an RFA, right?)

I know some folks think I'm a homer who never faults the organization (see: McD5 :silly: ), the fact is I'm just looking for some balance in how our fans view our team. It's not great, but it's not so bad either.

i actually see people on here posting that they're embarrassed to wear the colors... as a fan who bleeds the B&G, that pains me. Folks act like we're the Raiders, and we're far from it.

~Bang

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i think its just because of how truly bad those moves were. and we constantly have no draft picks because we trade them for garbage players. the team is managed in a dumb fashion and most of that falls down to vinny because hes the face of the front office.

i think since snyder took over we have drafted the least amount of players in football. and thats because we trade all the picks away for players that dont amount to much. couple that with giving away huge contracts to free agents that flop here, it all adds up in the long run.

I have never understood why everyone blames Vinny. The last 4 years I put directly on Gibbs. He was the driving force behind acquiring many of our bust.

Brunell's deal was all him.

Williams loved Archdeluxe and Gibbs along with it.

Gibbs helped bring in Lloyd.

He traded away picks for Campbell.

I am not saying Vinny is great but he does not deserve all the blame. Gibbs played a big part in a lot of those trades and those signings. I think people give Gibbs a pass and Vinny is an easy target.

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Or maybe it's just a positive spin on the fact that we're broke as :pooh:.

I think when you peel the outer layer back, that's exactly what it is.

Sometimes i wonder what it would have been like had we not traded those draft picks for Llyod and Duckett ... and given BL and AA such huge signing bonuses before they ever even suited up.

Oh well, let's just get on with it shall we. Get back to work AJ! jk :D

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I think Vinny gets way way way too much crap from everyone on here. He wouldn't have been with Notre Dame in 89 or the 49ers for so long by being a complete moron.

Actions speak louder than words -- let us see if Zorn pans out.

See, picking Zorn would have meant that Vinny is smarter than Gibbs.

I don't think that is the case.

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If you really take a look at it, we've really only gone stupid with free agents twice. Every other year we don't do any more or less than anyone else.

It's the reputation after the 2000 shopping spree that feeds the perception.

~Bang

i think its just because of how truly bad those moves were. and we constantly have no draft picks because we trade them for garbage players. the team is managed in a dumb fashion and most of that falls down to vinny because hes the face of the front office.

i think since snyder took over we have drafted the least amount of players in football. and thats because we trade all the picks away for players that dont amount to much. couple that with giving away huge contracts to free agents that flop here, it all adds up in the long run.

yeah, I commented about this earlier. It's not that the contract for both AA and Llyod alone killed us, it's the fact that we gave up 2 draft picks for Llyod, 2 draft picks for Duckett and gave AA the highest salary for a safety. Even though it was really only 2 or 3 players that hurt us ... what we gave up for them equals out to 7 players worth (including the two 3rd's and 4th's we gave away).

Those signings and trades were SOOOOO over the top I am really dumbfounded when I look back and think, and realize that Gibbs let that happen. But it shouldn't have been on just him, he had no GM and salary cap experience. He was acting as all coaches would have. I guess that was the problem of having a HOF'er as your coach. Who's going to question his authority?

I'd like to know who really wanted these players.

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There comes a time in every man's life when he has to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation.

Who told Vinny and Coach Dan that the Skins aren't their personal fantasy footbal team? Gasp! If we're staying out of free agency, does that mean there's a chance we might draft an OL before the 5th round?

Nah, too much to hope for.

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Again how come Gibbs get a pass. He was the President of the Team running the show for the last 4 years.

Given how this team has performed over his tenure and where this team was headed, I don't think Gibbs II needs to be defended. It is pretty obvious we would have been a real contender in 2008, had we stayed the course.

You are kidding yourself if you think Zorn will do better.

Vinny will again prove his cluelessness.

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Given how this team has performed over his tenure and where this team was headed, I don't think Gibbs II needs to be defended. It is pretty obvious we would have been a real contender in 2008, had we stayed the course.

You are kidding yourself if you think Zorn will do better.

Vinny will again prove his cluelessness.

That is not the point at all. If you look at what people are complaining about when ever they ***** about Vinny and Snyder is that they made these poor moves. That they picked these guys and that prooves they don't know what they are doing.

My question still stands. Where was Gibbs. He hired Saunders and set the Offensive back, he traded picks for Campbell. He brought in Brunell who had one good year but signed him to a 7 year contract. He signed Duckett. HE Sign Archdelux. He signed Lloyd.

Where is his responsibility in all of these moves. Was he asleep in the office. I seriously doubt that. Instead it seems pretty clear he was on board with much of these decisions.

I love how all the Gibbs lovers give him all the credit for the wins but none of the responsiblity for the busts. Remember Gibbs was the man who wanted Desmond Howard. Bethard fought him tooth and nail on that pick and left the Skins soon after. Gibbs was never a shop for the groceries guy.

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If you really take a look at it, we've really only gone stupid with free agents twice. Every other year we don't do any more or less than anyone else.

It's the reputation after the 2000 shopping spree that feeds the perception.

~Bang

Bingo!!!!!!!!!
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I would bet big money that if we had cap space, we'd be chasing the stars this year. What is Vinny going to say? The situation is different than it was a few years ago.

Here's my theory of that from another thread entitled "We're not in cap hell. We're in cap Heck"

If you survey the landscape of the NFL today, obviously there are all of those that annually predict cap hell for the Skins. Those in the know have traditionally used the "cash over cap" theory that says as long as we are willing to re-do contracts and give the players more guaranteed cash, we'll alway be ok. Here are some reasons why I think that is not so much the case any more. In fact although we aren't in the kind of dire circumstance people always put us in - we are in CAP HECK.

I understand that the following list of teams' cap numbers are from the end of December but it is important for several reasons.

Obviously the Skins (And other teams) will make many moves to reduce their cap numbers. When all is said and done, though, we will still be among the very bottom with the least amount of cap space to use. And what is the effect of that?

Well, we're seeing that traditionally cheap teams are increasingly franchising players who aren't really superstars. Teams are also increasingly extending their best young players before they reach free agency. What this means is that the number of young stars on the rise to hit free agency is increasingly small. This is happening when virtually every team in the league has more money to throw at those players who are available and can now outbid us.

This isn't a new situation. Last year we couldn't even get inside the room to consider making a competetive bid on Derrick Dockery or any of the other 4-5 really good offensive linemen who were free agents. We just weren't in a position to offer $18-20 million bonuses to guards. Instead we gave up a middle round pick and got a 35 year old guard who was disgruntled with his contract, with bad knees from the jests. Now he played ok last year, but he wasn't Dockery - particularly in the pulling department. AND we still have no long term solution at the position. We also needed a cornerback last year. We didn't have to even bother calling Nate Clement's agent - didn't sf give him a $90 million contract with a $25+ somthing million bonus?

What free agents could we get? Smoot and London. Smoot who was in the bargain bin because of his meltdown on and off the field in Minnesota and London who is older and considered a (GW) system kind of player with size that most teams don't want in their mlb position. Now they both played well for us and I'm happy with them but we got them at a relatively discounted price and they were far from being covetted in the league.

And what position do we need to fill this year? Big possesion wr, pass rushing de and dt, shutdown corner, lb, oline. Do you think Snyderatto can outbid the rest of the league for Assante Samuel? Not any more (if we wanted him). To get a player who is in demand, we will really have to overpay because virtually every other team in the NFL could pay more than we could. With most teams having tons of cap space and a much more limited number of available free agents, what that means is that just "above average" players can now command ridiculous contracts. That just pushes us further down the list of people we can competetively bid for. And let's face it, the Redskins aren't the team that many players will take less to come play for. NE might get Randy Moss for a year at a discount, they might be able to sign Zach Thomas at a discount. But we can't do that. Our ace in the hole was always that we could pay more.

To make things worse we still are saddled with terrible contracts like Lloyd's who we can't even cut because of the cap hit. There has been talk that Jon Jansen is good value with his age and injury profile - tough. We can't cut him - too big of a cap hit.

So we have less flexibility than almost every other team in terms of cutting players and signing new ones. We can't reasonably outbid anybody for a top flight player. So the reality is that we're in CAP HECK.

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I have never understood why everyone blames Vinny. The last 4 years I put directly on Gibbs. He was the driving force behind acquiring many of our bust.

Brunell's deal was all him.

Williams loved Archdeluxe and Gibbs along with it.

Gibbs helped bring in Lloyd.

He traded away picks for Campbell.

I am not saying Vinny is great but he does not deserve all the blame. Gibbs played a big part in a lot of those trades and those signings. I think people give Gibbs a pass and Vinny is an easy target.

So you expect me to believe that Gibbs negotiated Brunell's contract? You want us to believe that Gibbs said, we should give up xth round picks for Mark!

Gibbs may have wanted him, but he didn't and never has negotiated ONE single contract with a player.

Nor does he decide what draft picks to give away for the likes of J. Campbell

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So you expect me to believe that Gibbs negotiated Brunell's contract? You want us to believe that Gibbs said, we should give up xth round picks for Mark!

Gibbs may have wanted him, but he didn't and never has negotiated ONE single contract with a player.

Nor does he decide what draft picks to give away for the likes of J. Campbell

That maybe the case but I think if you look at it with an objective eye Gibbs bears a lot of responsibility. He was the President of the team. If he did not want to be involved he should have hired a real GM. Instead he wanted to shop for the groceries and coach the team.

Don't get me wrong. I love Gibbs but I just don't think he is should get a pass.

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You know, if we had included a competent kicker in that 2000 spree, we might have finished 13-3, we were better than the Giants or Ravens talent-wise, we just couldn't get the ball through the uprights. I think our rep as big spenders is overblown and I think the media hypes up every off-season move the 'Skins make, you see the Pats and other teams getting praises for what we do and yet Snyder gets criticized. Then the fans here buy into the idiots in the Media and start bashing our team.

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So you expect me to believe that Gibbs negotiated Brunell's contract? You want us to believe that Gibbs said, we should give up xth round picks for Mark!

Gibbs may have wanted him, but he didn't and never has negotiated ONE single contract with a player.

Nor does he decide what draft picks to give away for the likes of J. Campbell

Give me a freakin' break! Gibbs hands are all over BOTH of those players. He wanted them and Snyder did what it took to sign both. And you can bet your annual paycheck that Gibbs agreed to the draft pick trade for Campbell. Neither Vinny nor Snyder were going to tell Gibbs to go away.

Gibbs made all the final decisions on players over the past four years including Lloyd and Archuletta....anyone who thinks those were Vinny's decisions are blind.

Even before that, most player selections have rested with Marty and Spurrier. Cerrato and Snyder have gotten the blame but virtually all the players going back to Marty's time have been players the coaches wanted. Blame them for not putting their foot down but don't blame them for selecting, drafting and signing players. These were players the COACHES coveted and wanted.

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Actions speak louder than words -- let us see if Zorn pans out.

See, picking Zorn would have meant that Vinny is smarter than Gibbs.

I don't think that is the case.

Cause we all know how good of a front office whiz kid Gibbs is!

3rd and 4th for Lloyd

3rd for Duckett

3rd for Brunell

etc

etc

etc

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Thank god the market is changing and forcing the Skins to use the draft more.

Lord knows if there was no salary cap the Skins would just sign everyone under the sun:laugh:.

Thinker is on the right track, though. Teams are getting smarter with their own players and extending guys that 4-5 years ago could have been snatched up by Snyder's big bucks. Now that they're maxed out the Skins are taking a more frugal approach which should be a blessing in disguise.

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Porter, are you serious. I pray we dont sign him. Hes getting too old and has never had a 1000 yard season. I dont care who he has played for. 8years in the league and no 1000 yard season. No thanks.

They need to look to add a big receiver...and then draft. Id like Bryant Johnson, DJ Hackett, or Jerry Porter...in that order. Everything else can be addressed in the draft.
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