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Jesus vs. Horus


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This is what I've found on the birth of Horus

Isis (Horus' mom) had Osiris' body (dad) returned to Egypt after his death; Set had retrieved the body of Osiris and dismembered it into 14 pieces which he scattered all over Egypt. Thus Isis went out to search for each piece which she then buried. This is why there are many tombs to Osiris. The only part she did not find in her search was the genitals of Osiris which were thrown into a river by Set. She fashioned a substitute penis after seeing the condition it was in once she had found it and proceeded to have intercourse with the dead Osiris which resulted in the conception of Horus the child.

I don't see any valid comparison to Jesus' birth narrative. Anyone else found a different account of his conception that would be comparable to Jesus? I find the bullet point method thin and easily manipulative, similar to the silly Kennedy/Lincoln comparisons.

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This is what I've found on the birth of Horus

Isis (Horus' mom) had Osiris' body (dad) returned to Egypt after his death; Set had retrieved the body of Osiris and dismembered it into 14 pieces which he scattered all over Egypt. Thus Isis went out to search for each piece which she then buried. This is why there are many tombs to Osiris. The only part she did not find in her search was the genitals of Osiris which were thrown into a river by Set. She fashioned a substitute penis after seeing the condition it was in once she had found it and proceeded to have intercourse with the dead Osiris which resulted in the conception of Horus the child.

I don't see any valid comparison to Jesus' birth narrative. Anyone else found a different account of his conception that would be comparable to Jesus? I find the bullet point method thin and easily manipulative, similar to the silly Kennedy/Lincoln comparisons.

So basically you went straight to wikipedia and copy-pasted the section under Horus labeled 'conception'...

Brilliant!

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One thing I would like to point out is that certain aspects identified with Christianity aren't actually scriptural, but are interpretations/interpolations based on a few phrases. For example, there is nothing in the gospels about Jesus being born in a cave or stable. According to Jesus: A Life, the phrase in the original Greek text is better translated as "there was no place for him in the room" rather than no place at the inn. The implication is that there was no crib for a baby, so his parents improvised and converted a feeding box (manger) into a baby bed. Ergo, the supposed similarity between Jesus' and Horus' birth doesn't exist - any "borrowing" took place by later readers who saw what they wanted to see, and passed down traditions that most churchgoers accepted as biblical what was not. It's sad but most of us probably base our knowledge of the nativity on what we remember from Charlie Brown. The same goes for Dec 25 being Jesus' brithday, or the widely held belief that the Devil has horns and a pitchfork. Likewise, Jesus' father Joseph's occupation was artisan, which would be the Greek translation of an aramaic phrase used for both builders AND scholars. Yet, Christians almost universally believe/accept that the New Testament states his father was a carpenter

Exactly. Most of the comparisons don't make any sense. They set up a straw man Jesus. I wonder if they're doing the same thing with Horus.

I'm largely ignorant of Egyptian mythology, but I need to learn more. And more importantly, I need to learn more about babylonian mythology. Story telling in the Hebrew scriptures took on a dramatically different feel after their captivity. This stuff is great, but the hack job stuff set up these bullet point comparisons really turn me off.

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Rather than "critiquing" Mardi Gras' research methods, could you try and answer his question as to what the similarities in the tales of their birth are.

For example, in the legend of Sargon, it states his mother placed him in the river and let him float away in a boat/crib made of pitch and straw, where he was later found and drawn out of the river by members of the royal family and raised as one of their own. That's quite an obvious parallel to the story of Moses. By contrast, the refernced pages on Horus' birth and Jesus don't strike me as particularly convincing. I'm open-minded, so if you have any concrete references you'd like to share, I'd like to hear them.

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http://www.earth-history.com/Egypt/Legends/gods-10summary5.htm

This is what I found when researching the subject:

The news of the death of Osiris was brought to Isis, and she at once set out to find his body. All legends agree in saying that she took the form of a bird, and that she flew about unceasingly, going hither and thither, and uttering wailing cries of grief. At length she found the body, and with a piercing cry she alighted on the ground.

The Pyramid Texts say that Nephthys was with her that "Isis came, Nephthys came, the one on the right side, the other on the left side, one in the form of a Hat bird, the other in the form of a Tchert bird, and they found Osiris thrown on the ground in Netat by his brother Set." The late form of the legend goes on to say that Isis fanned the body with her feathers, and produced air, and that at length she caused the inert members of Osiris to move, and drew from him his essence, wherefrom she produced her child Horus.

So, one way or the other, she some how conceived a baby by either absorbing the seed of a dead corpse or playing with a fake penis? I can see the comparison to virgin birth. Neither had sex but both conceived. Also of interest:

This bare statement of the dogma of the conception of Horus does not represent all that is known about it, and it may well be supplemented by a passage from the Pyramid Texts, 4 which reads, "Adoration to thee, O Osiris. 5 Rise thou up on thy left side, place thyself on thy right side. This water which I give unto thee is the water of youth (or rejuvenation). Adoration to thee, O Osiris! Rise thou up on thy left side, place thyself on thy right side.

This bread which I have made for thee is warmth. Adoration to thee, O Osiris! The doors of heaven are opened to thee, the doors of the streams are thrown wide open to thee. The gods in the city of Pe come [to thee], Osiris, at the sound (or voice) of the supplication of Isis and Nephthys. . . . . . . Thy elder sister took thy body in her arms, she chafed thy hands, she clasped thee to her breast [when] she found thee [lying] on thy side on the plain of Netat."

Sounds like taking communion to me.

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So basically you went straight to wikipedia and copy-pasted the section under Horus labeled 'conception'...

Brilliant!

No. First I went to

http://www.touregypt.net/B&FHorus.htm

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen046.html

and

http://www.earth-history.com/Egypt/Legends/gods-10summary5.htm

The Wiki article was 4th on the list. It just happened to be the most succinct. And the question still stands, EA, feel free to offer something beneficial.

Is the Wiki article inaccurate? Is there a different account that makes the similarities more noticeable?

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Sounds like taking communion to me.

That's interesting. Thanks.

As for non-sexual/virgin births, that's a common element in dozens of ancient Near East religions. For example, Mithras was the son of the god Ahura Mazda, born out of a rock in the earth to redeem the world from sin.

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Yes we were. I'll quote the dialog below in case you're missing it.

The Lord's Day (first day of the week) :)

Their are so many Lord's days to choose from...

1. Jews Sabbath day, (Saturday) is the day of rest and worship. On this day God rested after creating the world.

2. Christians have made Sunday their day of rest and worship, because Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday.

3. Muslims use Friday as their day of rest and worship. The Qur'an calls Friday a holy day, the "king of days."

Sunday:

Sunday is the first day of the week. From prehistoric times to the close of the fifth century of the Christian era, the worship of the sun was dominant.

Sunday celebrates the sun god, Ra, Helios, Apollo, Ogmios, Mithrias, the sun goddess, Phoebe. The metal gold, as dedicated in the symbols of alchemy, is associated with the sun god and Sunday.

In the year 321, Constantine the Great ruled that the first day of the week, 'the venerable day of the sun', should be a day of rest. The sun's old association with the first day is responsible for the fact that the Lord's Day of Christianity bears the pagan name of Sunday.

I'm sorry I believe you were just tellin us how the Lord's day was a uniquely Christian thingy.....:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:. You do realize that the ancient Egyptians had already attributed Sunday to RA before Christianity was even conceptualized.

So do you have anything at all from Christianity that did not evolve from another source?

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Rather than "critiquing" Mardi Gras' research methods, could you try and answer his question as to what the similarities in the tales of their birth are.

I'm not making a point for the Jesus-Horus comparison and I agree that there are other comparisons to be made that are much more apt. I'm also standing a bit to the side on this one, just to see where this all goes.

Regardless, you should try to do a little more research than simply going to wikipedia before making up your mind about something.

Edit: If he did go to other sources, as it now appears, he should probably have linked them sooner for others to review.

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As for non-sexual/virgin births, that's a common element in dozens of ancient Near East religions. For example, Mithras was the son of the god Ahura Mazda, born out of a rock in the earth to redeem the world from sin.

Yeah, non-sexual birth is probably one of those things that will be vastly different from culture to culture. The Egyptians were all about their animal transformations, hence Isis becoming a bird, but I don't think the Christians would have been all about Mary turning into a hawk and flying up to god to get pregnant. Not saying that one story is inspired by the other, but if it is they have to play to their audience, for lack of a more respectful metaphor.

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So, one way or the other, she some how conceived a baby by either absorbing the seed of a dead corpse or playing with a fake penis? I can see the comparison to virgin birth. Neither had sex but both conceived.

You see similarity there with a monotheistic God conceiving a child in Mary's womb via His Spirit?
Also of interest:

Sounds like taking communion to me.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic by any means, but are you kidding?

Communion is an outward symbol of union with Christ and a memorial to the Last Supper that Jesus had with his disciples. It was a Passover Feast.

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So, one way or the other, she some how conceived a baby by either absorbing the seed of a dead corpse or playing with a fake penis? I can see the comparison to virgin birth. Neither had sex but both conceived.

Really? Didn't Isis have sex with a reconstructed penis (dildo?) of a dead god? The stories seem graphically and emotionally unrelated to me.

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Really? Didn't Isis have sex with a reconstructed penis (dildo?) of a dead god? The stories seem graphically and emotionally unrelated to me.

Yeah, it seems to have more in common with Greek myths like the birth of Venus than Christianity (was it Titus who was castrated by Zeus and his semen created the next generation of gods? Been a long time since my mythology class...)

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Edit: If he did go to other sources, as it now appears, he should probably have linked them sooner for others to review.

Sorry for the confusion. I am not and would never claim to be an expert in Egyptian mythology. My point in throwing the paragraph up was to present a basic account of Horus' conception so that it could be critiqued by those trying to draw comparisons between Jesus and Horus. Please feel free to tear it apart. I'm prepared to learn.

But if that story stands, the comparisons between the origins of the two seem to be based on an effort to discredit the origins of Jesus.

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You see similarity there with a monotheistic God conceiving a child in Mary's womb via His Spirit?

Yes, I see the similarity. Read the post I wrote after the one you quoted.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic by any means, but are you kidding?

Communion is an outward symbol of union with Christ and a memorial to the Last Supper that Jesus had with his disciples. It was a Passover Feast.

The meaning may be different, but the similarity of Christ's communion and of the event of Osiris taking "water of youth" and "bread of warmth" are undeniable.

Really? Didn't Isis have sex with a reconstructed penis (dildo?) of a dead god? The stories seem graphically and emotionally unrelated to me.

Last I checked, having sex with dildo does not typically lead to conception. And the dead god version didn't include sex. She fanned her wings and absorbed his essence. Again, read the post I wrote after the one you quoted. And as for seeming to be graphically and emotionally unrelated, of course they are. You're talking about two different cultures with very different ideas about deity and mythology. If they were similar, they wouldn't be different religions. Like I said before, if one group is going to borrow from another, they're going to edit the story to play to their audience.

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Their are so many Lord's days to choose from...

1. Jews Sabbath day, (Saturday) is the day of rest and worship. On this day God rested after creating the world.

"Jews" - not Christian

2. Christians have made Sunday their day of rest and worship, because Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday.
Exactly.

3. Muslims use Friday as their day of rest and worship. The Qur'an calls Friday a holy day, the "king of days."
"Muslim" - not Christian

If you think they are the same, you got bigger issues than what we're discussing here.

Sunday:

Sunday is the first day of the week. From prehistoric times to the close of the fifth century of the Christian era, the worship of the sun was dominant.

Sunday celebrates the sun god, Ra, Helios, Apollo, Ogmios, Mithrias, the sun goddess, Phoebe. The metal gold, as dedicated in the symbols of alchemy, is associated with the sun god and Sunday.

I don't even know how this is relevant? Does anybody else?

In the year 321, Constantine the Great ruled that the first day of the week, 'the venerable day of the sun', should be a day of rest. The sun's old association with the first day is responsible for the fact that the Lord's Day of Christianity bears the pagan name of Sunday.

And in 150 AD Justin Martyr makes reference to the Lord's Day being a day of baptisms, prayer, Scripture reading, and preaching.

I'm sorry I believe you were just tellin us how the Lord's day was a uniquely Christian thingy.....:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:. You do realize that the ancient Egyptians had already attributed Sunday to RA before Christianity was even conceptualized.
Again, I don't think its relevant since Ra wasn't resurrected on the First Day of the week. If Jesus had said I will rise in 4 days and it was Monday, I'm sure you'd find something else irrelevant to equate it with. Maybe if you can prove that RA and Osiris are the same? :)

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So do you have anything at all from Christianity that did not evolve from another source?

Anecdotal if not factual :)

During a British conference on comparative religions, experts from around the world debated what, if any, belief was unique to the Christian faith. They began eliminating possibilities. Incarnation? Other religions had different versions of gods appearing in human form. Resurrection? Again, other religions had accounts of return from death. The debate went on for some time until C. S. Lewis wandered into the room. "What's the rumpus about?" he asked, and heard in reply that his colleagues were discussing Christianity's unique contribution among world religions. Lewis responded, "Oh, that's easy. It's grace." Only Christianity dares to make God's love unconditional.

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And as for seeming to be graphically and emotionally unrelated, of course they are. You're talking about two different cultures with very different ideas about deity and mythology. If they were similar, they wouldn't be different religions. Like I said before, if one group is going to borrow from another, they're going to edit the story to play to their audience.

Ok. It seems like a weak comparison to me, but you and I see things differently. No biggie. Its good to hear other opinions.

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Ok, after looking around a little bit, I found answers to a similar list comparing the two here.

http://atheistempire.wordpress.com/2007/01/22/the-cult-of-horus/

Is the response credible? So far, these responses are as credible as the original list comparing Jesus and Horus. More so, as there are at least a few comparisons on the original list I know to be bogus based on a basic understanding of Christianity.

1. Horus born of a virgin. Jesus born of a virgin.”

-Not true. It was a miraculous birth but not nessecarily a virgin birth. Isis was impregnated by Osiris even though his penis was still missing after Seb killed him and scattered his remains…. hmmm sounds NOTHING like Jesus lol

2. The foster father of Horus was Seb or Seph. Jesus was fostered by Joseph.

-This is misleading. In all of the stories PREDATING Jesus, Seb was Horus’ Uncle but since he murdered His father he was Horus’ arch-nemesis. It was up to Horus to avenge his father… in no version ANYWHERE was Seb his “foster father”. Also Joseph was a mortal man while Seb was the god of the under world…

3. Horus was of royal descent. Jesus was of royal descent.

Jesus mortal descendant was of the bloodline of David- Horus had no mortal bloodline, technically, as he was never mortal- although all pharoahs traditionally saw themselves as horus incarnate. This is not really similar to Jesus.

4. Horus birth accompanied by three solar deities [star gazers] who followed by the morning star of Sirius bearing gifts. Jesus birth accompanied by three wise men [Zoroastrian star gazers] who followed by a star “in the east” bearing gifts.

First off- at least get your biblical facts right. The Bible says nothing of the number of wisemen nor anything of any “Zoroastrian star gazers”. Second of all, Horus was never visited by any soloar deities NOR was his birth ever heralded by any stars.

5. The birth of Horus announced by angels. The birth of Jesus announced by angels.

No it wasn’t. Only Jesus’ was. And even then it was only to a few select people (Mary, Joseph, and the Shepherds)

6. Herut tried to murder the infant Horus. Herod slaughtered every first born in an attempt to kill Jesus the forthcoming messiah.

There was no Herut- it was his Evil Uncle Seb who wanted Him dead lest he avenge his father, Osiris.

7. Horus is baptized at age 30 by Anup the Baptiser at a river. Jesus is baptized at age 30 by John the Baptist at a river.

There never was any Anup the Baptiser nor was Horus ever baptised… this one was COMPLETELY fabricated

8. Horus resists temptation by the evil Sut [sut was to be the precursor for the Hebrew Satan] on a high mountain. Jesus resists temptation by Satan on a high mountain.

Horus was never tempted by any Sut. And Sut was just another name for Seb in another version in the story. There is ALWAYS an evil guy or a nemisis or something along those lines. Seb is no more Satan than Lex Luthor is…

9. Horus had 12 followers. Jesus had 12 disciples.

Horus had followers but in the stories it either says 10 or many. Never 12.

10. Horus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water. Jesus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water.

-Horus did no such thing, although even if he did- this would be assumed from a deity would it not? Deities must have SOME universal qualities.

11. Horus raised someone from the grave [his father Osiris] Jesus raised Lazarus [notice the name similarity] from the grave. Lazarus is short for Elasarus - the “us” on the end is romanized. Elasarus was derived from “El-Asar” which was the name given to Osiris.

There are no stories where Horus raises ANYONE from the dead. Osiris was pieced back together by Isis (Horus’ Mommy). However, in versions that post-date Christianity, the story of Horus sort of “evolves” him into his fathers place. He becomes the Sun god rather than the god of the sky like in the versions that predate Christianity, but this is worthless information to this cause…

12. Horus was buried and resurrected in the city of Anu. The place Bethany mentioned in John was a derivative of the words “Bet” and “Anu” which translates “the house of Anu”. The ‘y’ on the end of bethany is interchangeable with the letter ‘u’.

Horus never died let alone resurrected- only His father Osiris died. In one story that comes after Christianity, however, Seb wins the battle over Horus, but the Gods let him live.

13. Horus was killed by crucifixtion. Jesus was crucified.

Horus was never crucified in ANY version of the story.

14. Horus was accompanied by two thieves at the crucifixtion. Jesus was crucified with two thieves.

Horus was never crucified…

15. Horus was buried in a tomb at Anu. Jesus was buried in a tomb located in Bethany [bet-Anu].

Horus never died….

16. Horus was resurrected after 3 days. Jesus was “said” to resurrected after over a period of three days.

Horus never died…..

17. The resurrection of Horus was announced by three women. The resurrection of Jesus was announced by three women.

Horus never died….

18. Horus was given the titel KRST which means “anointed one” Jesus was given the title Christ [Christos] meaning “anointed one”

No such title was given to Horus. Horus was the God of the Sky anad later (after Christ) was given the title God of the Sun

19. Horus was considered the Good Shepherd amongst other names identified as a falcon to watch over shepherds, flocks and other grazing cattle. Jesus was called the Good Shepherd amongst other names the same for Horus.

Nope Horus was never given that title- he was identified as a falcon but because he was the God of the Sky

20. Horus is associated with fish and is linked with the star sign Pisces. Jesus is also associated with fish [and fishermen] and has Pisces as his star sign.

Horus was never associated with a fish… only a hawk and the sun (after Christ)

If you’ve seen versions of these stories that i haven’t read, please let me know where to find them. I’ve read every story I could find in the library and I’ve read all stories from as many combinations of everything that has to do with Horus on the internet as I could find. The funny thing is that the only real parallels that I’ve seen are between the people who believe this crap. NONE OF THEM HAVE EVER READ A STORY WITH A GOOD PARALLEL IN IT. I have done research on other claims too- they are just as empty as Horus! Please….

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Ok, after looking around a little bit, I found answers to a similar list comparing the two here.

http://atheistempire.wordpress.com/2007/01/22/the-cult-of-horus/

Is the response credible? So far, these responses are as credible as the original list comparing Jesus and Horus. More so, as there are at least a few comparisons on the original list I know to be bogus based on a basic understanding of Christianity.

Well, that didn't stand up to much scrutiny, did it? I believe this may have been the original source of that list, and perhaps more worthy of attention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris-Dionysus

"With the growth of Christianity, some pagan polemicists (notably Celsus) charged that the Gospels' narrative of Jesus's death and resurrection was in fact a ****ized reworking of the sufferings of Dionysus and other similar gods. Christian apologists like Justin Martyr charged in turn that the pagan mystery-cults were degenerate adaptations of vague Biblical prophecies about the Jewish Messiah - although neither Osiris nor Dionysus show many similarities to the actual prophecies. The Pagan and Christian practices are strikingly similar: bread and wine as the body and blood, resurrection on the third day, virgin birth to a father who is a god, etc. Christian apologists charged the devil of copying Jesus' life into the past. Jews like Philo of Alexandria also observed similarities and postulated that the pagan religions had borrowed from Jewish scriptures."

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