jbonbright Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Since we have 85-90% of the coaching staff coming back next year, the Redskins have continuity going into 2008, says Snyder. That's so Snyder. He fails to mention that the one new guy just happens to be the offensive coordinator, who will bring an entirely new offense, nay offensive *philosophy*, to the Skins next year. Here we go again. By my count this is the second time that Snyder is rolling the dice on an unproven offensive leader, Spurrier (NFL coaching experience: 0 days) being the first and now Zorn, never more than a QB coach, the second. That decision was made even after Todd Collins proved (again) that Al Saunders' offense works beautifully when run by someone who knows it. The stench of Snyder's decision to fire Saunders was reinforced by other NFL teams lining up to interview Saunders to run their offenses. But he wasn't good enough for the Skins, apparently. IMHO, it's much easier to absorb a change in defensive schemes. For the offense, it's completely different. The thought of our QB throwing to the wrong spot on third downs and/or WRs running the wrong routes is just depressing. We'll likely have to endure another vanilla offense that's predictable (and therefore stoppable) but must be employed because the players haven't fully grasped the offense. That will go on for a couple of years, like it did under Saunders; just when it starts working, Snyder will have already made up his mind to fire Zorn and we'll start all over again yet again. For Jason Campbell, this will be the third completely new offense in four years. Poor guy. (Yeah, I know he's a paid professional, but very few guys, no matter how talented, succeed in an environment of constant change.) Hopefully Zorn won't send everyone out in pass patterns and subject Jason to the regular pummeling that Ramsey endured under Spurrier. Antonio Pierce, who admittedly may still be a tad bitter over his departure, summed it up best when he said that the Redskins front office just doesn't know what they're doing and has no plan in place. Ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durant35 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I think the bottom line and the point that everyone is missing is that the continuity lies within the locker room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Well, the only teams that get offseason headlines are the ones that make it deep into the playoffs and the ones that make a lot of changes. Dan sure knows how to keep his team in the headlines in one of those two ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I think the bottom line and the point that everyone is missing is that the continuity lies within the locker room. So when Dan stated that he wants continuity he was referring to the players? One would think that new coaches might want a say in who is on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morneblade Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 You'd also think that a HC would like to bring in his own staff. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
33 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 2007 Pittsburgh Steelers. New offense, new head coach, old d-coordinator. Continuity on the roster. Better record. I'm not saying that will be us, but let's step back and notice that new offenses don't always translate into horrible transition periods. Even GW has supposedly said he would have made Saunders pair back his offense. That says more to me than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbonbright Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 I think the bottom line and the point that everyone is missing is that the continuity lies within the locker room. Really? They had essentially the same staff in 2006 that they did in 2005. (Actually, they had better receivers in 2006!) 2005 resulted in 11-7 with a playoff win. 2006 resulted in 5-11. Biggest difference: entirely new offense. Sure, the secondary in 2006 was decimated and our defense dropped way down as a result, but do you remember how horrible the offense was too? If I had to pick player continuity vs. coaching continuity, I'd pick coaching continuity every time. Players come and go in this free agent era and successful teams adapt by elevating existing players to fill the vacant roles OR by bringing in guys who can learn your systems quickly. The one exception to this? The QB position. The real bottom line is the Skins had a playoff offense in place and they dismantled it again. Schottenheimer had a playoff offense in the making (winning 8 of the last 11) and was gone (I realize there were extenuating circumstances.) Turner, who I couldn't stand, nevertheless was fired with a winning record, the first time that had happened in forty years or so. Until Snyder develops some patience and vision, we will go through this for as long as he owns the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbonbright Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 2007 Pittsburgh Steelers. New offense, new head coach, old d-coordinator. Continuity on the roster. Better record. I'm not saying that will be us, but let's step back and notice that new offenses don't always translate into horrible transition periods. Even GW has supposedly said he would have made Saunders pair back his offense. That says more to me than anything. There are some examples, Tampa Bay winning it all in Gruden's first year probably being the most prominent example, but by and large it's a rarity. And, it seems like the Redskins never fall into that rarity group. Gibb's first year, first and second stint: 8-8, 6-10 Schottenheimer: 8-8 (started out 0-5) Spurrier (6-10, 5-11; OK, I don't blame the players for that one) Saunder's new offense in 2006: 5-11 I would LOVE to be wrong about Zorn, the new West Coast offense they say he's bringing, and our players picking it up so quickly they are running the entire scheme in the first game of 2008. History tells me otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 A couple of thoughts. The if it ain't broke don't fix it-- statement (Snyder's quote about consistency) was made in response to be asked if he planned to hire a GM. You can generalize if it you want, but Snyder didn't say, we plan to keep all aspects of the team consistent. In fact, he never even remotely implied that he was planning to forgo the draft, keep the roster 100% intact, and demand that we go 9-7 again. He didn't annoint this team a juggernaut wherein every piece, every coach had to remain the same. In fact, he said the opposite, he said they are beginning the process of reviewing candidates, but that he believed the team was beginning to move in the correct direction. 2) You can't build a team around a 36 year old Todd Collins. You just can't. 3) This team just hasn't been a world beater on offense or even on defense in the last few years. Even with Todd, we moved up to effective, but were hardly great. 4) Were you really content with this team as it was constituted throughout the year? Were you happy at the beginning of the year? Were you happy in the middle during the long losing streak? Or were you only happy at the end? 5) Fans are mercurial, aren't we? They were chanting "Joe must go!" and that was the most common refrain even in ES up until Joe's death. I never agreed with it and I kept faith, and I tried to shout some down off the fire Joe bandwagon, but clearly there was something wrong in Denmark then. 6) For Godsakes, draft a good passrushing defensive end and a guard who can move a body on 3rd and one (I know it's unrelated, but it still needs to be said) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Until Snyder develops some patience and vision, we will go through this for as long as he owns the team. Great post! :applause: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Since we have 85-90% of the coaching staff coming back next year, the Redskins have continuity going into 2008, says Snyder.That's so Snyder. He fails to mention that the one new guy just happens to be the offensive coordinator, who will bring an entirely new offense, nay offensive *philosophy*, to the Skins next year...... Your post gripes about the changes on offense as though there isn't a reasonable basis for it. Here, briefly are a few of the points to be made in countering your position: --- We didn't have much of a future if we had to depend on 36 year-old Todd Collins to run the offense. --- The wide gap between the performances of Collins and Campbell might be explained by a bad fit between Campbell and Al's offense, setting up a choice between Al or Jason which Al loses. --- The WCO schemes have the QB making quick, short passes which are more O line friendly than the vertical passing game of the Coryell with more seven-step drops. Our O line is declining in its ability to protect the QB. --- Jason's development depends a lot on improvement in his mechanics and Zorn's reputation was built upon his skill in remaking QB mechanics. --- In his successful senior year at Auburn, Jason ran a variation of the WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 5) Fans are mercurial, aren't we? They were chanting "Joe must go!" and that was the most common refrain even in ES up until Joe's death. I'm guessing you meant 'Seans' death? Regardless, I don't think I was ever so embarrassed to be a Skins fan when hearing that echo through the stadium... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 sorry about that. Yes. I actually went to that game too. Really infuriated me. Joe deserved so much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
33 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 There are some examples, Tampa Bay winning it all in Gruden's first year probably being the most prominent example, but by and large it's a rarity. And, it seems like the Redskins never fall into that rarity group. I could point to the 2006 Saints as well, and there are others. Gibb's first year, first and second stint: 8-8, 6-10Schottenheimer: 8-8 (started out 0-5) Spurrier (6-10, 5-11; OK, I don't blame the players for that one) Saunder's new offense in 2006: 5-11 The important thing to point out as it pertains to the Skins and what you listed, is that all of those were major regime changes. Not just offensive scheme changes, but entirely different personnel was needed to fit each scheme. Norv liked a pass catching TE, Schott liked a blocking TE, Spurrier didn't know how to spell TE, and Gibbs wanted an H-Back. There are examples with RB's as well. I would agree that all of those wholesale changes have led to us squandering the fact that we had two stud tackles. To me, that's the biggest shame. I would LOVE to be wrong about Zorn, the new West Coast offense they say he's bringing, and our players picking it up so quickly they are running the entire scheme in the first game of 2008. History tells me otherwise. I would love for you to be wrong as well. The thing is, as of now we don't know that we'll be running a WCO. We know that's the system Zorn was coaching in for the last 7 years, but we also know that he isn't originally a WCO guy. We also don't know what sort of personnel we will need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voicekiller Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 oh my god, when will you Dan haters just stop, it is getting so childish...get over it GG is gone, and Dan Snyder is the owner whether you like it or not...but all this hate and always criticizing the owner is getting old and plain old stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFanAnt Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 **** SNYDER! I'm so sick of this little prick running what has the potential to be a great team into the ground. Sorry, but I detest this guy more so than Jerry Jones now. It's one thing to fire coaches...but don't go on telling us we have continuity after you've done it. This ******* really loves milking the homers. FU Snyder!!! You're just as bad as Jerruh "Skeletor" Jones. Prick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbonbright Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 A couple of thoughts. The if it ain't broke don't fix it-- statement (Snyder's quote about consistency) was made in response to be asked if he planned to hire a GM. You can generalize if it you want, but Snyder didn't say, we plan to keep all aspects of the team consistent. In fact, he never even remotely implied that he was planning to forgo the draft, keep the roster 100% intact, and demand that we go 9-7 again. He didn't annoint this team a juggernaut wherein every piece, every coach had to remain the same. In fact, he said the opposite, he said they are beginning the process of reviewing candidates, but that he believed the team was beginning to move in the correct direction. 2) You can't build a team around a 36 year old Todd Collins. You just can't. 3) This team just hasn't been a world beater on offense or even on defense in the last few years. Even with Todd, we moved up to effective, but were hardly great. 4) Were you really content with this team as it was constituted throughout the year? Were you happy at the beginning of the year? Were you happy in the middle during the long losing streak? Or were you only happy at the end? 5) Fans are mercurial, aren't we? They were chanting "Joe must go!" and that was the most common refrain even in ES up until Joe's death. I never agreed with it and I kept faith, and I tried to shout some down off the fire Joe bandwagon, but clearly there was something wrong in Denmark then. 6) For Godsakes, draft a good passrushing defensive end and a guard who can move a body on 3rd and one (I know it's unrelated, but it still needs to be said) #1 - Continuity to me as a fan means the offense and defense will continue to run the same systems. #2 - I wasn't suggesting that Collins was my choice to run the offense in '08. He's not. My point was to simply say that Saunders' offense worked fantastically when run by someone who knew it. I was confident that Campbell would run it very effectively next year. #3 and #4 - We looked like a completely different team after Collins took over, beating two playoff teams (Cowboys, #1 seed, and Giants, Super Bowl winners) and a playoff-runner up, the Vikes, in must-win situations. I was absolutely psyched about going into 2008 with the offense and defense in place and Campbell running the offense that Collins proved could work, despite the patchwork offensive line. I figured we'd pick up some pieces in the draft and in FA, get healthy on the O-line, and we could actually add to our late-season success in 2007. #5 - "We" surely doesn't include me. I wasn't among those saying Gibbs had to go. I also thought we were a wide receiver away from going deep into the playoffs in 2005 under Joe's offense. But, they decided to scrap that and bring in Saunders, which I was incredulous about. But then we endure the 700-page-offense-learning-curve in 2006 (and 5-11 season) and it's finally clicking at the end of 2007, but then Snyder dismantles that offense too. #6 - Agree. Unfortunately, we'll also need to find someone to replace Sean Taylor (RIP), though I'm not sure that's even possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Hammer Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I'm guessing you meant 'Seans' death? Regardless, I don't think I was ever so embarrassed to be a Skins fan when hearing that echo through the stadium... Ditto! :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 sorry about that. Yes.I actually went to that game too. Really infuriated me. Joe deserved so much better. I think that day played as much a role in his eventual retirement as anything else that happened. I mean, who would want to put in 100+ hours a week only to hear stuff like that on Sundays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
33 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 For the record, I don't think many people at Redskins Part were very fond of Al or his system. I can't recall JJG really paying any compliments to him along the way. The word before the playoff run, was that Joe himself was intent to let Al go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor 36 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Until Snyder develops some patience and vision, we will go through this for as long as he owns the team. Interesting that you should say that. He has had the patience to wait and interview every viable candidate, yet people are out for blood due to his patience. Now, you say HE needs to develop patience and vision? I would say it is more of the fans that need to develop these virtues at these points, not Danny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voicekiller Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Interesting that you should say that. He has had the patience to wait and interview every viable candidate, yet people are out for blood due to his patience. Now, you say HE needs to develop patience and vision? I would say it is more of the fans that need to develop these virtues at these points, not Danny.nice point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLusby Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Who's to say that Zorn doesn't learn the "700 page play book" along with re-signing Collins (who could help) reconstruct the play book using Zorn's creativity. I mean in "700 plays", I am sure 90% of what Zorn might want to do is already there. He might modify it with a two-back system (which we ran anyway w/Sellers as the FB or HB at times), but keep the same terminology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbonbright Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 Your post gripes about the changes on offense as though there isn't a reasonable basis for it. Here, briefly are a few of the points to be made in countering your position:--- We didn't have much of a future if we had to depend on 36 year-old Todd Collins to run the offense. You're missing my point entirely. I'm not implying that Collins is the future at QB for the Skins. Campbell is. My point is that Saunders offense was proven to work by a guy familiar with the system. That guy happened to be Collins, who knew the offense and it showed - 4-1 after he took over. Campbell didn't have a complete grasp of the very same offense (but would have) and it showed (5-7). --- The wide gap between the performances of Collins and Campbell might be explained by a bad fit between Campbell and Al's offense, setting up a choice between Al or Jason which Al loses. Or it's better explained by lack of familiarity with the offense on Campbell's part and his overall inexperience as an NFL QB, though I think we all saw strides towards improvement there. If what you're saying is true, why was Campbell lobbying so hard for continuity in the coaching staff, which, presumably also included its offensive's leader? --- The WCO schemes have the QB making quick, short passes which are more O line friendly than the vertical passing game of the Coryell with more seven-step drops. Our O line is declining in its ability to protect the QB. Did you watch the last four games of the year? Didn't the same O-line you malign do an absolutely credible job of pass protection for Collins? With Jansen and Thomas back healthy, Campbell could have sat back there all day if he wanted to next year. --- Jason's development depends a lot on improvement in his mechanics and Zorn's reputation was built upon his skill in remaking QB mechanics. I hope you're right about that, because as equalling damaging to a team's chances of success as a change in schemes is, a change in QB is often worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I think the bottom line and the point that everyone is missing is that the continuity lies within the locker room. Thats only because its not March. Wait till they have 20Mil to spend and see if they choose to hold on to any of it so they can resign players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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