The Consigliere Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Look at the drafts since he arrived, both the picks made, and the picks we didn't have because they were frittered in stupid trades. Look especially at trades/picks before Gibbs. Casserly, hands down one of the best GMs in football, obtained for us the #2 and #3 picks in draft overall, then Snyder canned him (true incompetence, I know, finagling those 2 picks), then Cerrato took over. . Lets not get crazy here. Cerrato has been worse than Casserly, but Casserly was disastrous here. Not a single quality draft in all the years after he took over. Not one. Until his last year, and even that draft was partially botched. After the heaven sent value of the Fat Gilbert Trade/Signing, he frittered away a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd on Brad Johnson, overpaying to the nth degree, especially considering the 1st was a top 11 pick, and the third was as well. That was INSANE overpayment for an average at best QB in a draft loaded for bore w/QB prospects, as well as superstars in waiting like Torry Holt, and Chris McAllister, and Edge, all of whom were virtual locks to be studs at the next level and whom we didnt even sniff at. His drafts post beathard were abysmal other than that Champ-Jansen draft, and even that draft, again, featured an overpayment for B.J., and then an overpayment to move back up to get Champ after we'd traded down with New Orleans. He got virtually nothing out of the Norv years on draft day, and out of the last Gibbs years as well. I will grant that if Casserly trumped Norv, we would have had Dilfer and Galloway, both still in this league, while Shulers been out for a decade, and Westbunk for more than half a decade. But the record speaks for itself and its BAD. He was a bit better in Houston, drafting much better on day one and landing his share of studs like Williams, Dunta Robinson, and their stud RB who then had a career ending injury, forgot his name, not to mention guys like Dmeco Ryans. Still, he stunk for us too, he was just marginally better than stinky Cerrato who outright sucks donkey you know what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgundyBooger Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Lets not get crazy here. Cerrato has been worse than Casserly, but Casserly was disastrous here. Not a single quality draft in all the years after he took over. Not one. Finding Stephen Davis in the 4th round is a quality pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retire 21 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Vinnie has been making bad decisions for years. He was fired for a brief period of time and when that announcement came I remember feeling a huge sense of relief. I then scoffed when I read in the paper a few months/year later that he had been rehired by Snyder. Vinnie is Snyder's "yes" man, simple as that. Snyder is a stuck up jackass and he needs to get a GM pronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekhmet187 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I also don't know why Vinny has done such a bad job when Williams and Gibbs are partially to blame for many of the personnel botches the last 4 seasons, and after reading the topic I still don't know why. All I can gather is that he is friends with Snyder and thus can not do a good job. Its impossible to gauge completely how he does I'm guessing, since when Gibbs was here, he was head of decisions in personnel so you don't know if finding a Stephon Heyer or Chris Wilson is on Gibbs or Vinny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Consigliere Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I know his track record in SF is mixed. I lived in Santa Cruz for a few years during that time. He did sign TO, and he does have a ring. My point is that you can't blame anything from the JG2 era on him because Joe's fingerprints and final say was all over everything. Most of the badmouthing and poor reputation he has seen locally has been during JG2. I hope he has learned from his mistakes and I am willing to give him a shot. I am tickled pink that we now have a real GM with authority. That seems to be far and away the most popular business structure among winning teams. And if we continue to have personnel problems, we know exactly who to blame. Even though he is blamed now anyway, from here on out there is no passing the buck. I don't, I view his performance as strictly a '00, '02-'03, and Niners in the 90's era question. Gibbs II is Gibbs II, I view it as far more strongly related to Gibbs and Williams acumen than that of Cerrato and it's not a coincidence that our draft and free agent signings were improved during this recent era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Consigliere Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 That post is meaningless. Of course there are not going to be as many guys on the roster from the 2000 draft as there is from 2006. If you want to bash VC, at least find some meaningful facts. The whole of that draft was off the team by and large by 2001 save for Samuels and Arrington. The '02 draft was a bust virtually immediately with only Ramsey, and Betts and Cartwright contributing anything long term. The '03 draft was equally disastrous with only Dockery contributing anything of note within a year. The post is meaningful if you look at the details. What makes the performance of Cerrato and Casserly so abysmal since Beathard left is not just the miserable drafts, but also the fact that these draftees couldn't even make the rosters of teams that were by and large filled with miserable, talentless players in the '93-'08 era. You can forgive the Patriots when they have an off draft at times because it's not exactly easy to crack the lineup of a team as loaded as say a New England, or a San Diego, or an Indy. Not so the Redskins circa '93-'08. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRAZYHORSE19682003 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 America and Redskins fans in general have the drive through mentality. They want whatever they want and they want it NOW! If they don't get it they throw a fit like a 2 year old. It doesn't matter that most of these idiots don't have a clue what they are talking about! Hey I watch football on TV and read the Internet I must know more than Snyder or Vinny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphil006 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 two words: Trung Canidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Consigliere Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 This draft was done entirely by Schottenheimer. Cerrato had been fired before this draft took place. Ergo, you can't include 2001 into your estimation of Cerrato's success/failure rate. Exactly, Snyder would never have taken a legit NFL'er like Smoot, or a long term solid backup QB like Rosenfels, or a borderline decent WR for a few years like Gardner. He would have preferred Mitchell or some other talentless scrub WR. The sad thing is, that most of the board back in '01 had a better idea, being on the Moss, and Reggie Wayne and Chad Johnson (after he singlehandedly destroyed Notre Dame in their bowl game) trains at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Consigliere Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Finding Stephen Davis in the 4th round is a quality pick. Let's talk about the rest of that draft. One quality pick does not a great draft make. A great or even good draft will yield quality starters plural and reserves who can contribute over time. 1-2 players that are still around a few years later is not a good draft. For the record, the rest of that draft yielded Andre Johnson, OT from Penn State and never played a down for us. Leomont Evans, hack DB, bust, Kelvin Kinney, talentless pass rusher, Jeremy "could get tackled by a feather" Asher, and DeAndre "Meet the Turk" Maxwell. Nothing out of the rest of that draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Exactly, Snyder would never have taken a legit NFL'er like Smoot, or a long term solid backup QB like Rosenfels, or a borderline decent WR for a few years like Gardner. He would have preferred Mitchell or some other talentless scrub WR. The sad thing is, that most of the board back in '01 had a better idea, being on the Moss, and Reggie Wayne and Chad Johnson (after he singlehandedly destroyed Notre Dame in their bowl game) trains at the time. Dude, Snyder WANTED SANTANA MOSS - He told Marty he should draft Moss, and Marty took Gardner instead. Rosenfels is on his 3rd team right now. He's done quite well in the games he's played with the Texans, but the bottom line is Marty's draft just plain sucked. Only Smoot turned out well. Gardner isn't even in the league anymore. In fact, Smoot and Sage are the only two picks still playing. Everyone else - BUSTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Consigliere Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Dude, Snyder WANTED SANTANA MOSS - He told Marty he should draft Moss, and Marty took Gardner instead. Rosenfels is on his 3rd team right now. He's done quite well in the games he's played with the Texans, but the bottom line is Marty's draft just plain sucked. Only Smoot turned out well. Gardner isn't even in the league anymore. In fact, Smoot and Sage are the only two picks still playing. Everyone else - BUSTS. Typo, should have read Cerrato. Yes, I remember that Snyder wanted Moss, he wants flash, not a big surprise. If he wanted Flash, he should have paid attention to Chad Johnson as his Pac-10 boys roasted Notre Dame for lunch that January 1st. Rosenfels is no stud, but a 4th rounder sticking for 7 years in the league is value. Gardner turned in mediocre value on his contract with us. He's not a bust, but he's not that good either. Btw, never considered '01 a quality draft, I shook my head at every pick save Smoot, including Rosenfels. I'm just underlining the fact that Cerrato has typically found zero, or nearly zero talent for the redskins outside of the top 5 picks in a draft year in a year out. Only exceptions are Dockery, Cartwright, and Betts. Schotty found Rosenfels and Smoot after round 1 in that draft, both solid players. And while Gardner may be a bust now he did contribute solid #'s for us during his 1st contract. While I wouldve liked more, he was an improvement on the Westbunk pick from six years earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papabear Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Have you heard him speak? ouch... Have you heard Jason Campbell speak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I'm just underlining the fact that Cerrato has typically found zero, or nearly zero talent for the redskins outside of the top 5 picks in a draft year in a year out. Only exceptions are Dockery, Cartwright, and Betts. No argument here!!!! Plus, Cartwright was actually handpicked by Hue Jackson. You'd also have to throw in Royal, though unfortunately injuries made it so he didn't produce until his last year here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbodiesel#44 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Why are the same people on here claiming that our drafts and roster is total ****e, but claiming that we must have continuity? Pick a lane, and use your signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor ToughLove Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 The sad thing is, that most of the board back in '01 had a better idea [than drafting Rod Gardner], being on the Moss, and Reggie Wayne and Chad Johnson (after he singlehandedly destroyed Notre Dame in their bowl game) trains at the time. Not really. Comparisons of Rod Gardner to Jerry Rice were being made by some pretty big wigs here who are dead quiet now days. Gang piling on the anti-Gardner faction with moderator support was more the norm. Moderator abuses where high in Gardner's defense, especially game after game of Gardner not living up to their Jerry Rice depictions. They kicked people out for not pulling the partyline here. (this was the renegade days before the buyout by redskins.com, which has immensely improved the site) My game watching crowd of generational Redskin fans would print it out and pass it around for laughs at game time. And everytime Gardner dropped a ball we'd say Gardner *extremed* it again. They can thank Gibbs for putting an end to that. The buyout by Redskins.com cleaned a lot of that up. But most of my generational Redskin fan friends won't touch this site directly due to the laughable nature of the Gardner period. Time bore them out indisputably, but it is vindicating to hear people now days acknowledge & agree with them as if anything else were preposterous. *wink, wink, guys* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Vinny Article from a couple years ago: "Cerrato has outlasted Norv Turner, Schottenheimer, Steve Spurrier, Deion Sanders and every other high-priced free agent Cerrato brought to Washington in 2000. Schottenheimer did not want any filters to Snyder, so he promptly got rid of Cerrato in January 2001. "He told me at first, 'We gotta live together. We gotta hang out together.' A week later, he said, 'I'm going to terminate you,' " Cerrato said." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/10/AR2005081002181.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flash22 Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Can someone list out the good moves he's made versus the bad. I see so much vitriol spewed his way and I don't know why. Someone please alleviate my ignorance with some well based facts. I see lots of "he doesn't know anything about football" type comments, yet he worked for San Fran for ~9 years. He must know something. Has he had any real control and decision making authority while here? I'm just not privy to the inner workings of the organization. Maybe someone who is can shed some light on his short commings supported by fact and not message board conjecture. This isn't possible because every good draft pick was picked by joe gibbs and every bad free agent was signed by VC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Why are the same people on here claiming that our drafts and roster is total ****e, but claiming that we must have continuity? Pick a lane, and use your signal. reasonable point that I must confess I am having troubles with. on one hand...sick of 16 years of losing football and nearly ten years of DS football...I want it fixed......on the other....e do have something of a foundation and I am tired of the incessant change.....especially since I have never really heard Snyderatto step out and say "this is our identity...this is what we are going to be"....... it's been one endless, friggin merry-go-round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seabee1973 Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 This time next year I gurantee you'll be calling Houston's defensive line one of the league's best. They've spent a number of first rounders on defensive linemen and took the time to develop them. This season you could see it was starting to pay off.The bottom line for Vinny is that when your (our) team can't rush the passer with four down linemen you are failing as a GM. i would blame Williams on that one he had all the power to choose a DL 3 times in the first round and didnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seabee1973 Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Vinny Cerrato undermined the San Francisco 49ers as their player personnel director, he gets the blame for the salary cap problems for going after free agents and utilizing draftpicks as bargaining chips. Come on, Vinny drafted Jim Druckenmiller in the 1st round.When we had Charley Casserly, he finagled a away for us to get the 2nd (Arrington) and 3rd (Samuels) overall pick in the '00 draft. Genious moves by a real GM. When has Vinny done anything even remotely close to that, beside running our salary cap out of the sky? Casserly Did draft Andre Johmson in the first round He also picked up stubblefield and fat daddy. Casserl;y made some bad moves. If Mike Ditka wasnt Dumb those draft picks in 2000 never happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helter_Skelter Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 He is despised because of the results he's produced. Sometimes the best answer is the simple answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtruslow Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 And........he's an asskisser. Pretty simple to me. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voicekiller Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I like Vinny...he has made some good moves... Sean Taylor was his guy Laron Landry was his choice as well It was Vinny who got all the replacement players last season after all the injuries, and now we have a good amount of depth This is coming from someone i know who has a little inside knowledge...and yes i know you are all going to say Gregg wanted Sean Taylor...yes he did, but my friend says it was Vinny who brought Sean to his attention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadKarma Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Regardless of speculation regarding who he picked over the past 7 years, Cerrato is too far up Snyder's ass to be an effective GM. This team will continue to flounder under this regime and would be miles ahead if our owner f'ed off and left the team in the hands of a qualified talent evaluator. I would think its a safe bet that the Dolphins win a Superbowl before we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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