Why is Vinny C so despised?

[TheLongshot]

Vinny Cerrato's worst move that will haunt him forever:

Trung Canidate.

What an eye for talent?

I don't blame Vinny for that one. That is exactly the type of back that Spurrier wanted. Vinny did his job and got him. I actually give Vinny more blame for Rob Johnson. That signing made no sense at all.

Jason

[Fifty Gut]

I dunno... seems like drafting DLineman in the first round is more hit-and-miss than other positions (maybe even QB).

Look at teams like Houston... If you have a "sure-thing", you should take a DLineman. However, it's no real reason to "despise" someone. Neither is the look in their eyes.

This time next year I gurantee you'll be calling Houston's defensive line one of the league's best. They've spent a number of first rounders on defensive linemen and took the time to develop them. This season you could see it was starting to pay off.

The bottom line for Vinny is that when your (our) team can't rush the passer with four down linemen you are failing as a GM.

[turbodiesel#44]

He gets crapped on because of his close relationship with Snyder. I think this amounts to 99% of it.

It's hard to tell if he's done anything successful because we do not know who exactly is behind what move.

That's the real answer. The next year or two should clear things up. You can only blame Gibbs for what happened under Gibbs. That's the way it is when you take total control.

[The Full Monty]

And in the end, Beathard left. You can't have people going after each other all the time and expect it to last. That's what I've been talking about.

Right well aren't well happy that their contentious relationship produced 2 championship teams in 3 appearances, before Beathard left and enough of a foundation for another in Super Bowl 26?

If it means dominating for an entire decade like Gibbs I and Beathard did while fighting tooth and nail at times, I'll take it in second.

[Chump Bailey]

This time next year I gurantee you'll be calling Houston's defensive line one of the league's best. They've spent a number of first rounders on defensive linemen and took the time to develop them. This season you could see it was starting to pay off.

The bottom line for Vinny is that when your (our) team can't rush the passer with four down linemen you are failing as a GM.

:applause:

[The Consigliere]

While Cerrato is undistinguished as a scout, his main problem is lack of independence. This causes him to be an enabler for a variety of people who are significantly worse at scouting talent. Those people certainly include Dan Snyder and Joe Gibbs, and Spurrier previously. Even Gregg Williams contributed a bonehead move with Archuleta.

In talent evaluation, I mainly fault Cerrato for poor QB scouting. For example, I think he still doesn't understand Jason Campbell's fundamental limitations. This self-induced blindness by Cerrato and Snyder will have catastrophic consequences, as they scapegoat Al Saunders for failing to turn their ill-advised draft pick into an NFL star.

In reviewing the team's most stupendously stupid personnel moves, usuallly we see a pattern where someone in power got a huge hard-on for a player, and overpaid in terms of contract value, bonus money, contract length, draft picks or trade value. Usually these moves do not have Cerrato's signature. In some cases we discover that he actually opposed the move.

He has also failed to counterbalance one of the cardinal character faults of Dan Snyder, which is an incredible resistance to rewarding employees and building for the long term. This has been his hallmark as a CEO. Outside of a small braintrust, Snyder tends to disregard the value of core employees, and we see this repeatedly when players are not offered contract extensions until late in their final contract year, or at free agency. Snyder would much rather overpay for another team's player than commit in advance to the promise of an existing player still in mid-contract. It's disloyalty at the top, and Cerrato has done nothing (apparently) to counterbalance this tendency.

Cerrato's recent promotion in theory could be a good thing, because his instincts are probably better than Snyder's. However, the move seems calculated as a power play against any incoming new head coach, which if anything signals more (not less) Snyder meddling in the future ... thorugh Cerrato as appendage.

We're on the same page, particularly the last paragraph which is exactly my read. I imagine if Cowher had been signed, no raise and no new position for Cerrato and maybe no new job. Now that Snyder can't get the #1 guy on his list, he's going to get a lesser known guy, or a retread, and the Cerrato move suggests that Snyder+Cerrato will be heavily involved again ala '00-'03, minus the Schotty year.

Our one area of disagreement, sort of, is over the Gibbs years. While I agree on free agency and your reading of it, I tend to view what happened back then as a plaudit to Gibbs and Williams in terms of the draft. The only drafts during the Snyder era which weren't mostly or completely disastrous happened with Gibbs and Williams running the ship. I tend to thus give Cerrato very little credit considering the years w/o those two stunk, and suddenly we got nearly competant at drafting the second they arrived (Taylor and Cooley, Campbell+ Rogers, Rocky+Golston+Monty, Landry+ sucked admittedly). Preceeding their arrival we were getting damn near nothing (Samuels and Arrington, in '02 essentially nothing of staying power until Gibbs and Byner turned Betts and Cartwright into something 4 years after they started collecting dust, and in '03 it was a total disaster save for Dockery).

[The Consigliere]

I don't know if that is fair to Cerrato. While the coaching staff did have a lot of say, Cerrato is the guy who puts together the scouting reports and his ratings on all of those players. It isn't like he gave them the raw data and they made their own decisions.

The problem with using SF against him is that there were a lot of people with their finger in the pie. Bill Walsh, Carmen Policy, and Dwight Clark were all involved with decisionmaking, sometimes at cross-purposes. Druckenmiller is a good example of that, since it mostly seemed to be a power play between Policy and Walsh (who wanted Plummer).

As for the latter, that's more on Snyder than anything, since he's ultimately responsible with coaching turnover and having the plan ripped up and redrawn each time he did that. He's also the one that decided to give Lavar that ballbuster contract that ended up being unwieldy and restricted the team from doing a lot of things, like resign Champ.

Jason

Walsh wasn't involved in any of the Niner problems. That was all Policy, Clark, and Cerrato, w/Clark and Cerrato handling most of player acquisitions duties, Policy was always more involved w/the business angle. Walsh didn't get back in until Policy and Clark were ousted and left for Cleveland, and Cerrato was just canned. Indeed Walsh was primarily involved in the Niners brief revival under Jeff Garcia whom he handpicked out of the CFL to replace Steve Young.

[tone_dubbz]

Vinny Cerrato undermined the San Francisco 49ers as their player personnel director, he gets the blame for the salary cap problems for going after free agents and utilizing draftpicks as bargaining chips. Come on, Vinny drafted Jim Druckenmiller in the 1st round.

When we had Charley Casserly, he finagled a away for us to get the 2nd (Arrington) and 3rd (Samuels) overall pick in the '00 draft. Genious moves by a real GM. When has Vinny done anything even remotely close to that, beside running our salary cap out of the sky?

[The Consigliere]

That's the real answer. The next year or two should clear things up. You can only blame Gibbs for what happened under Gibbs. That's the way it is when you take total control.

Not for people who were familiar with Cerrato's work prior to his first arrival here. I grew up in the bay area and lived there until the summer of 2004 so I was more than familiar with his disasters in San Francisco, the day he was brought on a bunch of niner fan buddies called to get their laughs in. I knew what we were in for. There's a reason he's the only FO guy people talk about with the same undiminished lack of respect as Millen.

[Thoth]

Look at the drafts since he arrived, both the picks made, and the picks we didn't have because they were frittered in stupid trades. Look especially at trades/picks before Gibbs. Casserly, hands down one of the best GMs in football, obtained for us the #2 and #3 picks in draft overall, then Snyder canned him (true incompetence, I know, finagling those 2 picks), then Cerrato took over.

Cerrato quotes his success in SF, but he had Walsh, etc. (like Gibbs) exercising a firm hand, and was an integral part of running that franchise into the ground. SF grew terrible in large part because they had several years of drafts under his guidance that produced almost no talent.

I think when you look at the decisions Cerrato made from this time, right after Casserly, to when Gibbs took over, when he had more say than all the head coaches, is very telling. It is an abysmal record. Out of 4 years of picks, 2000 - 2003, 4 players still on roster, 4 QBs drafted none on roster including 1st rounder, 4 WRs drafted, none on roster, no DL selected with 1st day pick ever, 4 players still on roster are Samuels, Jansen, Cartwright, Betts. That's it out of 4 YEARS of drafts. When you contrast this with teams like Pats, Colts, Ravens, Eagles, Pats, etc., teams that have been good for a period of years, the difference is just appalling. If, over say a 10 year period, you hit just on your 1st round pick (the years we even have one), and kept every one signed, that's half your starters.

I think with Gibbs gone, we will see more of this type of incompetence, the type he showed before Gibbs.

Cerrato may be a decent talent evaluator, I disagree, but to concede the point, but as a GM (his essential role, whatever it is called), he is a joke, a punchline, a laughingstock. NFL insiders double over laughing.

What other team would promote an individual with such an abysmal/mediocre record?

Cerrato was a typical Snyder free agent acquisition--fire or can a top-notch individual, and replace him with someone less talented for twice the money. NO OTHER FRANCHISE WOULD HAND HIM A FRACTION OF THE POWER SNYDER HAS. Snyder, of course, groping for a SB, doesn't know enough about football to realize just how bad Cerrato is.

The result, in terms of Redskins performance, speaks for itself. Our record since Snyder bought team is one of the worst in NFL.

I will post our draft record next.

[MDRedskinsFan]

Dude...My point was, TO was a great pick. Phenomenal pick in the third round. If you're going to rip him for Druck, then praise him for T.O.

The value of having Vinny is simple. He spends half his time talking Snyder out of dumb ideas. Snyder, the year the Redskins drafted Arrington, wanted to trade that pick to the Jets for Keyshawn. Vinny talked him out of it. Just an example. I'm not saying the guy's batting a thousand, but, without him, Snyder would've wreaked more havoc than he already has.

Oh okay, I misread your post. I agree with you on that. No GM bats a thousand, but it's hard to please everybody. Part of the problem with criticizing Cerrato with some moves is that unless he comes out and admits anything, they don't let on who was responsible for what. So if Gibbs and Cerrato messed up on somebody, you can't place the blame on one person, unless one admits it was their decision. As bad as it sounds, I'd much rather have Vinny as a supposed GM rather than have a coach doing all the work. The coach should coach the team, and the GM should get talent that fits in the coach's system.

[Greek44]

I think for me, and it's been stated here by a few others, is the distance (or lack thereof) between he and Snyder. I think that Snyder has made more bad moves with this organization than good ones and is better off just writing the checks than actually making the decisions. I don't think that Vinny has the freedom to run the team as he sees fit.

Then again, all we as fans can really do is speculate on how the decisions are actually made out at Redskins Park. We only see the end results, which under Danny have been less than spectacular. Vinny is the patsy for those moves.

[Riggo-toni]

When we had Charley Casserly, he finagled a away for us to get the 2nd (Arrington) and 3rd (Samuels) overall pick in the '00 draft. Genious moves by a real GM. When has Vinny done anything even remotely close to that, beside running our salary cap out of the sky?

Uh, you're half right. One of those picks came from the Panthers via Sean Gilbert, but it was Vinny who traded our #1 and the Saints #1 we got from Ricky Williams (thank you Ditka), plus our 3rd rounder to get the other (I can't remember if we had the #2 and he traded for the #3, or the other way around). Cerrato hand-picked Samuels and Arrington. Quite frankly, I wish he'd stayed put and used all 3 first rounders. SF used our first rounder to draft Julian Peterson, who is clearly a better LB than Arrington ever would've been. We got at most the 3rd best LB in the draft with the second overall pick.... (Urlacher also came out that year). We'd have been in far better cap shape if we'd stayed put and hit gold on either of the two lower picks.

[tone_dubbz]

After this guy singed Trung, Bruce Smith, Jeff George, and Neon Deon.......is enough to despise him.

[Thoth]

I'm picking 2000 as start, beginning of century, football careers short, etc., not fair to say a guy drafted in 98 no longer on roster, many aren't, but let's take a roughly 7 year window.

There are other factors like Snyder's meddling, etc., but in the end Cerrato is a personnel guy, and should be judged on overall performance here. I'll bold face players still on roster.

2000

1. LaVar Arrington, LB, Penn St.

1. Chris Samuels, T, Alabama

3. Lloyd Harrison, CB, N.C. State

4. Michael Moore, G, Troy St.

5. Quincy Sanders, S, UNLV

6. Todd Husak, QB, Stanford

7. Del Cowsette, DT, Maryland

7. Ethan Howell, WR, Oklahoma St.

2001

1. Rod Gardner, WR, Clemson

2. Fred Smoot, CB, Mississippi St.

4. Sage Rosenfels, QB, Iowa St.

5. Darnerien McCants, WR, Delaware St.

6. Mario Monds, DT, Cincinnati

2002

1. Patrick Ramsey, QB, Tulane

2. Ladell Betts, RB, Iowa

3. Rashad Bauman, CB, Oregon

3. Cliff Russell, WR, Utah

5. Andre Lott, S, Tennessee

5. Robert Royal, TE, LSU

6. Reggie Coleman, T, Tennessee

7. Jeff Grau, LS, UCLA

7. Greg Scott, DE, Hampton

7. Rock Cartwright, FB, Kansas St.

2003

2. Taylor Jacobs, WR, Florida

3. Derrick Dockery, G, Texas

7. Gibran Hamdan, QB, Indiana

4 years of drafts, including #2 & #3 overall your first year

26 Picks Total, 4 Players still on roster, 15%

1 of 4 1st round picks still on roster, 25%

11 picks in 1st, 2nd, 3rd rounds (postions good teams regularly find starters) - 1 consistent starter, Samuels, 2 mediocre starters-solid backups, Smoot, Betts, 3 of 11, 27%

Gems - 4th - 7th rounds, 15 picks, one player on roster, 1 of 15, 6%

A few players like Royal and Lavar produced for a few years, but I'm talking quality long term players. Regardless, even cutting slack on these arguable points, this is abysmal.

Now Gibbs arrives. He is not a GM or master talent evaluator by any means, but his influence results in immediate improvement:

2004

1. Sean Taylor, S, Miami (Fla.) (Can't count murder against the scouts)

3. Chris Cooley, TE, Utah State

5. Mark Wilson, OL, California

6. Jim Molinaro, OL, Notre Dame

2005

1. Carlos Rogers, CB, Auburn

1. Jason Campbell, QB, Auburn

4. Manuel White, Jr., RB, UCLA

5. Robert McCune, LB, Louisville

6. Jared Newberry, LB, Stanford

7. Nehemiah Broughton, RB, The Citadel

2006

2. Rocky McIntosh, LB, Miami

5. Anthony Montgomery, DT, Minnesota

6. Reed Doughty, S, Northern Colorado

6. Kedric Golston, DT, Georgia

7. Kili Lefotu, OL, Arizona

7. Kevin Simon, LB, Tennessee

2007

1. Laron Landry, SS, Louisiana State

5. Dallas Sartz, LB, USC

6. HB Blades, LB, Pittsburgh

6. Jordan Palmer, QB, Texas-El Paso

7. Tyler Ecker, TE, Michigan

4 years of drafts, higher success rate expected all other things factored out because over time players age, injure, retire, less time has passed since Gibbs drafts then Cerrato's. Nonetheless. . .Gibbs numbers, Cerrato's in parethesis

21 Picks Total, 10 Players still on roster, 47% (15%)

4 of 4 1st round picks still on roster, 100% (25%)

6 picks in 1st, 2nd, 3rd rounds (postions good teams regularly find starters) - 4 consistent starters, deducted 1 for McIntosh/Rogers, who have been injured, didn't start right away, etc. Erring in Cerrato's favor here, some might call this 5 or 6. 4 of 6, 66% (27%)

Gems - 4th - 7th rounds, 15 picks, 4 players on roster, 4 of 15, 26% (6%)

This, even conceding Cerrato doesn't have total control, there are other factors, etc., is a tremendous difference.

3 more years of Gibbs drafting, we would have elite talent levels. The question is, will Cerrato draft like the Cerrato of old, or Gibbs?

It is not tough to see why we stunk before Gibbs, and why we will again soon if Cerrato returns to his statistical averages. These numbers are not much different during his tenure with 49ers after big name coaches left.

Final post, a team like Colts.

[turbodiesel#44]

Not for people who were familiar with Cerrato's work prior to his first arrival here. I grew up in the bay area and lived there until the summer of 2004 so I was more than familiar with his disasters in San Francisco, the day he was brought on a bunch of niner fan buddies called to get their laughs in. I knew what we were in for. There's a reason he's the only FO guy people talk about with the same undiminished lack of respect as Millen.

I know his track record in SF is mixed. I lived in Santa Cruz for a few years during that time. He did sign TO, and he does have a ring. My point is that you can't blame anything from the JG2 era on him because Joe's fingerprints and final say was all over everything.

Most of the badmouthing and poor reputation he has seen locally has been during JG2. I hope he has learned from his mistakes and I am willing to give him a shot. I am tickled pink that we now have a real GM with authority. That seems to be far and away the most popular business structure among winning teams. And if we continue to have personnel problems, we know exactly who to blame. Even though he is blamed now anyway, from here on out there is no passing the buck.

[Thoth]

The Pats are unfair example, they cheat, and get windfalls like Moss for a 4th, so let's pick 2nd best team of last several years, Colts. For them I'm going to start 1998, year Manning drafted, and just look at 1st round picks.

Now, let's suppose just one thing: that they had Cerrato's success rate with 1st round picks rather than Gibbs. Not going to take time with detailed calculations for other picks, but just as an example.

First, note we had 2 top 5 picks, no franchise QB, its been a carousel since.

11 picks, ALL panned out, ALL produced steadily for years, Glenn retired, James not resigned, Rob Morris on IR but still on roster. 9 of 11 still on roster. Had you done this 2 years ago, would have been 9 of 9.

Now suppose Vinny Cerrato had been running the Colts, with meddle-meister The Dan pissing in the soup. 7 of these 11 picks would have been busts, probably with Cerrato's flawed analysis (aka Duckemeiller) or The Dan wanting the glamour pick instead of the smart one. Since all our WRs are busts under Cerrato's 4 years without Gibbs (see previous post in this group), all our QBs were, and we never drafted a DL first day under Cerrato, let's nix Harrison, Manning, Wayne, Freeney, and Gonzalez. I'll let you pick the other 2 that were busts. So what would the colts look like without these 7? That's the difference between an elite team, and, oh, say, one like the Redskins.

To say nothing of high rates of starters and gems due to to similarly high success rates in late rounds over a course of years.

199619Marvin HarrisonWRSyracuse199719Tarik GlennOTCalifornia19981Peyton ManningQBTennessee19994Edgerrin JamesRBMiami (FL)200028Rob MorrisLBBrigham Young200130Reggie WayneWRMiami (FL)200211Dwight FreeneyDESyracuse200324Dallas ClarkTEIowa2004No first-round draft pick[18]200529Marlin JacksonCBMichigan200630Joseph AddaiRBLouisiana State200732Anthony GonzalezWROhio State

Surprise, surprise, they are an elite team.

This is why people who understand football, and want the Skins to prosper, detest Cerrato and Snyder.

[turbodiesel#44]

I'm picking 2000 as start

That post is meaningless. Of course there are not going to be as many guys on the roster from the 2000 draft as there is from 2006. If you want to bash VC, at least find some meaningful facts.

[Thoth]

That post is meaningless. Of course there are not going to be as many guys on the roster from the 2000 draft as there is from 2006. If you want to bash VC, at least find some meaningful facts.

Read the full post before commenting, idiot.

I mention this in the post.

If you don't want to read the whole thing, fine, but then don't comment on it.

You're probably one of those guys who pans movies and books you've never seen or read, basely solely on the trailer or word of mouth.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

His Weasel laugh maybe?

[turbodiesel#44]

Read the full post before commenting, idiot.

I mention this in the post.

If you don't want to read the whole thing, fine, but then don't comment on it.

You're probably one of those guys who pans movies and books you've never seen or read, basely solely on the trailer or word of mouth.

I read your post. You are comparing the number of players still on the team from 2000 and 2006. And you call ME an idiot? That's against the board rules by the way. Do you need me to quote them to you?

[TheLongshot]

Most of the badmouthing and poor reputation he has seen locally has been during JG2. I hope he has learned from his mistakes and I am willing to give him a shot. I am tickled pink that we now have a real GM with authority. That seems to be far and away the most popular business structure among winning teams. And if we continue to have personnel problems, we know exactly who to blame. Even though he is blamed now anyway, from here on out there is no passing the buck.

I wouldn't exactly call Vinny's role a true GM. He doesn't have the ability to hire and fire coaches, and we will see how far his authority goes once a coach gets installed.

I think what a lot of people here want is a true GM who makes all the football decisions and have Snyder not involved at all beyond signing the checks. That isn't going to happen.

Jason

[turbodiesel#44]

I wouldn't exactly call Vinny's role a true GM. He doesn't have the ability to hire and fire coaches, and we will see how far his authority goes once a coach gets installed.

I think what a lot of people here want is a true GM who makes all the football decisions and have Snyder not involved at all beyond signing the checks. That isn't going to happen.

Jason

I am in total agreement with you. The guy picking players has to pick the ones that fit the coaches philosophy. And a coach has to alter his philosophy to best utilize the talent of his available personnel. But our situation now is way better than it has been for many years. And, at least on paper, Danny has removed himself from the process.

[Riggo-toni]

2001

1. Rod Gardner, WR, Clemson

2. Fred Smoot, CB, Mississippi St.

4. Sage Rosenfels, QB, Iowa St.

5. Darnerien McCants, WR, Delaware St.

6. Mario Monds, DT, Cincinnati

This draft was done entirely by Schottenheimer. Cerrato had been fired before this draft took place. Ergo, you can't include 2001 into your estimation of Cerrato's success/failure rate.

[Doctor ToughLove]

Real problem is the GM-by-committee thing doesn't hold anyone responsible. I mean look at this thread...no one knows who got who (Gibbs wanted this one, Gregg wanted that one, Snyder was the other one..etc). So I'm fine with them keeping Vinny as long as you give it all to him so he can be held responsible, sucess or failure. My suspicions are Cerrato would not get the chance except he was over ruled on some decision which time bore him out as right on. And there was potential for a LOT of those. We will probably never find out what they were, but boy would I pay for that info.

I