Why is Vinny C so despised?

[The Full Monty]

When judging Vinny, first and foremost you can discard the Gibbs years. All Cerrato did was hand off film, stats, etc. to the staff, and Gibbs together with GW and the assistant coaches made all the decisions. Vinny's real power was in 2000, 2002, and especially 2003 after Mendes was squeezed out.

Pros: In '99 prior to the season, made several excellent value pickups: Marco Coleman, Andy Heck, Keith Sims, Larry Centers.

In '00, passed on Peter Warrick and drafted Chris Samuels instead.

In '02, found Robert Royal in the 5th round

In 03, he allegedly wanted to draft Mike Doss in the 2nd round, but got overruled when SS wanted Taylor Jacobs :doh: Drafted Dockery in the 3rd. Signed Randy Thomas

Cons:

Besides the FA spending spree, which was probably more Snyder's desire, his draft in '00 set us way back. He traded 2 #1s and a 3rd rounder to move up in the first which saddled us with huge cap figures for 2 top 3 picks, and everyone picked after Samuels was a bust.

His draft in '02 was mediocre. Ramsey was supposedly more Mendes' pick, and Betts has turned out to be a decent pick, though we could've picked Weaver and still found Betts in the 3rd. Every other pick was a bust except for Cartwright, who was handpicked by Hue Jackson, and Royal.

03- Cut Wilkinson just before camp with NO viable alternative at DT. Picked up a bunch of dreadful scrubs cut by other teams who couldn't play a lick. Other than Dockery, another lousy draft, though there weren't many picks anyways since most had been traded for RFAs. Gave a monster contract and had to surrender a 4th for Chad Morton. :laugh:

Cerrato's draft record stinks, going all the way back to SF, where all his picks not named Terrell Owens were busts (Druckenmiller, anyone?). The end result is a team with little or no depth. Furthermore, he's failed where the Pats and Eagles FOs have succeeded - locking up players BEFORE their contracts run out.

that should do it! :applause:

[Larry Gude]

Secretly, we all want his job and his paycheck.

No, it's not a secret. You and I just said it publicly!

:laugh:

[MDRedskinsFan]

Terrell Owens, too.

No, TO isn't even in the same class as Druckenmiller. Actually, looking at TO's career stats, you'd be happy to know he was a 3rd rounder. I wouldn't have guessed that he would pan out. I have a funny feeling that everybody is going to eat their words on Vinny. I think before he was just a sidekick, and now with Gibbs gone, they formalized their structure and gave Vinny the job he was in essence doing. For better or worse, we're going to see the real Vinny for the next couple years.

[Smoot Point Really]

hes a complete moron. look at the dudes face, look into his eyes. you can tell hes a few cards short of a full deck. he also doesnt believe in drafting dlineman in the first round. any moron knows the key to building a great defense/offense starts with your lines. he obviously was getting his lobotomy during that course.

I dunno... seems like drafting DLineman in the first round is more hit-and-miss than other positions (maybe even QB).

Look at teams like Houston... If you have a "sure-thing", you should take a DLineman. However, it's no real reason to "despise" someone. Neither is the look in their eyes.

[jimster]

Why is Vinny so despised? Because there are some 50,000 members at ES who think they could do a better job. My suggestion to those who despise him - submit your resume. And don't worry, you'll get the same treatment too. :laugh:

Madden on Xbox resumes don't count.

[drowland]

Matt Millen.

How come every time someone brings up the need for a real GM, the detractors bring up Millen?

Matt Millen was a player and broadcaster before he got the Detriot GM gig. He had no scouting or FO experience. Trying to say Vinny's better then him isn't saying a damn thing!

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

I agree, he catches way to much flak for signings and picks that in the end WE have no idea they were his. His record in SF is not super, but he's been part of the team that has put together a very competitive product over the last 3 years. I'm willing to give him some time to show us what he can do, with his arse on the line. :2cents:

And to use 2000-03 as a basis of examination is not totally fair, I'd be willing to bet the majority of those choices came from The Dan, (who wanted to play with his new toy).

[meek]

People love to hate Cerrato because he's viewed as the reason why we don't have a GM and people believe that a GM would be the end to all of our problems.

Heck, if they just put the letters GM in front of Vinny's title, people would probably love him.

[Reaganaut]

Vinnie plays an Ooompa Loompa to Snyder's Willy Wonka. That's the perception.

[TheLongshot]

When judging Vinny, first and foremost you can discard the Gibbs years. All Cerrato did was hand off film, stats, etc. to the staff, and Gibbs together with GW and the assistant coaches made all the decisions.

I don't know if that is fair to Cerrato. While the coaching staff did have a lot of say, Cerrato is the guy who puts together the scouting reports and his ratings on all of those players. It isn't like he gave them the raw data and they made their own decisions.

Cerrato's draft record stinks, going all the way back to SF, where all his picks not named Terrell Owens were busts (Druckenmiller, anyone?). The end result is a team with little or no depth. Furthermore, he's failed where the Pats and Eagles FOs have succeeded - locking up players BEFORE their contracts run out.

The problem with using SF against him is that there were a lot of people with their finger in the pie. Bill Walsh, Carmen Policy, and Dwight Clark were all involved with decisionmaking, sometimes at cross-purposes. Druckenmiller is a good example of that, since it mostly seemed to be a power play between Policy and Walsh (who wanted Plummer).

As for the latter, that's more on Snyder than anything, since he's ultimately responsible with coaching turnover and having the plan ripped up and redrawn each time he did that. He's also the one that decided to give Lavar that ballbuster contract that ended up being unwieldy and restricted the team from doing a lot of things, like resign Champ.

Jason

[wbar3383]

Face it, they really dont have a clue.

But everyone needs a fall guy, and everyone thinks they can run the redskins better.

Just people being the sheep they are.

[Timmy Smith]

Vinny reminds me of Ralphie on the Sopranos. Just sayin'.

[TheLongshot]

There is one more thing I do want to point out. When Gibbs took over, one of the first things that happened was that the scouting department was overhauled. Whether or not that was at Gibbs insistence or if Vinny was going to do that anyways, who knows. But, the staff of 2002-2003 isn't the staff we have now.

Jason

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

When judging Vinny, first and foremost you can discard the Gibbs years. All Cerrato did was hand off film, stats, etc. to the staff, and Gibbs together with GW and the assistant coaches made all the decisions. Vinny's real power was in 2000, 2002, and especially 2003 after Mendes was squeezed out.

Pros: In '99 prior to the season, made several excellent value pickups: Marco Coleman, Andy Heck, Keith Sims, Larry Centers.

In '00, passed on Peter Warrick and drafted Chris Samuels instead.

In '02, found Robert Royal in the 5th round

In 03, he allegedly wanted to draft Mike Doss in the 2nd round, but got overruled when SS wanted Taylor Jacobs :doh: Drafted Dockery in the 3rd. Signed Randy Thomas

Cons:

Besides the FA spending spree, which was probably more Snyder's desire, his draft in '00 set us way back. He traded 2 #1s and a 3rd rounder to move up in the first which saddled us with huge cap figures for 2 top 3 picks, and everyone picked after Samuels was a bust.

His draft in '02 was mediocre. Ramsey was supposedly more Mendes' pick, and Betts has turned out to be a decent pick, though we could've picked Weaver and still found Betts in the 3rd. Every other pick was a bust except for Cartwright, who was handpicked by Hue Jackson, and Royal.

03- Cut Wilkinson just before camp with NO viable alternative at DT. Picked up a bunch of dreadful scrubs cut by other teams who couldn't play a lick. Other than Dockery, another lousy draft, though there weren't many picks anyways since most had been traded for RFAs. Gave a monster contract and had to surrender a 4th for Chad Morton. :laugh:

Cerrato's draft record stinks, going all the way back to SF, where all his picks not named Terrell Owens were busts (Druckenmiller, anyone?). The end result is a team with little or no depth. Furthermore, he's failed where the Pats and Eagles FOs have succeeded - locking up players BEFORE their contracts run out.

While Cerrato is undistinguished as a scout, his main problem is lack of independence. This causes him to be an enabler for a variety of people who are significantly worse at scouting talent. Those people certainly include Dan Snyder and Joe Gibbs, and Spurrier previously. Even Gregg Williams contributed a bonehead move with Archuleta.

In talent evaluation, I mainly fault Cerrato for poor QB scouting. For example, I think he still doesn't understand Jason Campbell's fundamental limitations. This self-induced blindness by Cerrato and Snyder will have catastrophic consequences, as they scapegoat Al Saunders for failing to turn their ill-advised draft pick into an NFL star.

In reviewing the team's most stupendously stupid personnel moves, usuallly we see a pattern where someone in power got a huge hard-on for a player, and overpaid in terms of contract value, bonus money, contract length, draft picks or trade value. Usually these moves do not have Cerrato's signature. In some cases we discover that he actually opposed the move.

He has also failed to counterbalance one of the cardinal character faults of Dan Snyder, which is an incredible resistance to rewarding employees and building for the long term. This has been his hallmark as a CEO. Outside of a small braintrust, Snyder tends to disregard the value of core employees, and we see this repeatedly when players are not offered contract extensions until late in their final contract year, or at free agency. Snyder would much rather overpay for another team's player than commit in advance to the promise of an existing player still in mid-contract. It's disloyalty at the top, and Cerrato has done nothing (apparently) to counterbalance this tendency.

Cerrato's recent promotion in theory could be a good thing, because his instincts are probably better than Snyder's. However, the move seems calculated as a power play against any incoming new head coach, which if anything signals more (not less) Snyder meddling in the future ... thorugh Cerrato as appendage.

[Riggo-toni]

I don't know if that is fair to Cerrato. While the coaching staff did have a lot of say, Cerrato is the guy who puts together the scouting reports and his ratings on all of those players. It isn't like he gave them the raw data and they made their own decisions.

As it was explained in an interview he gave, the grades come from all the position coaches. Vinny compiled these and then handed them off to Gibbs and Williams. Gibbs made the decisions. Cerrato, for example, went on record during the Sean Taylor trial that he wanted KWII. Clearly the scouting dept does have some effect though, because when Scott Campbell was in charge of pro personnel, we brought in first rate players at good values - Griffin, Springs, Washington, Rabach, etc., while the lower draft picks were all busts. As ASF pointed out a while back, when Roddick and Campbell switched places, our pro FA signings sucked (Arch, Lloyd), but suddenly we were finding rough diamonds in the late rounds of the draft - Golston, Monty, Doughty. Cerrato was well-suited for his role during Gibbs' tenure, and would be a good asset in a supporting role, but I have little confidence in him running the show. Casserly was an excellent scout, for example, but a putrid GM. Cerrato is good for having his finger on the pulse of the NFL, anticipating who will be released or not re-signed, but like Casserly, he's more capable as an assistant rather than having free reign over personnel, ESPECIALLY the draft.

[Dictator]

How come every time someone brings up the need for a real GM, the detractors bring up Millen?

Matt Millen was a player and broadcaster before he got the Detriot GM gig. He had no scouting or FO experience. Trying to say Vinny's better then him isn't saying a damn thing!

The other poster wanted an example of someone worse than Vinny. That's just one of a few possible answers. Frankly, it was the easiest one to find without doing research on other GM's while I am at work.

[Riggo-toni]

He has also failed to counterbalance one of the cardinal character faults of Dan Snyder, which is an incredible resistance to rewarding employees and building for the long term. This has been his hallmark as a CEO. Outside of a small braintrust, Snyder tends to disregard the value of core employees, and we see this repeatedly when players are not offered contract extensions until late in their final contract year, or at free agency. Snyder would much rather overpay for another team's player than commit in advance to the promise of an existing player still in mid-contract. It's disloyalty at the top, and Cerrato has done nothing (apparently) to counterbalance this tendency.

I agree 100%. Gibbs and Beathard fought like cats and dogs, but this is what produced such great results. Gibbs always had a tendency to be willing to overpay for anyone (a first and another pick for Gerald Riggs was the final straw that drove Beathard away), while Beathard pushed for bargains. There's noone telling Dan it's a 16 game season and not many starters last that long; buy low and wide so we have depth.

[The Consigliere]

Secretly, we all want his job and his paycheck. Officially, it's because of the y2k spending spree.

Don't forget the miserable '00, '02-'03 drafts, or the miserable job he did in San Francisco. My main issue isn't that free agent haul, so much as the philosophy and the ghastly performances on draft day. Those drafts were pathetic, other than hitting on the semi-obvious picks-Samuels ended up being a keeper, and Arrington was solid (and compared to some guys around them, Warrick and Brown to name 2, they were good value), they missed on virtually every pick (Betts was a semi-hit but only four years later, not what they had planned for the guy, and Dockery was a semi-hit in '03, but someone else got the prime of his career). Essentially virtually the entire '02 and '03 drafts were disasters, as was the '00 draft outside of the 2nd and 3rd overall pick. His drafts working hand in hand with Clark in San Francisco were equally brutal. Walsh saved them when he came back and brought in some talent, but the drafts of the Clark-Cerrato-Policy era were what destroyed that franchise, just as the drafts of '84-'03 were what destroyed the redskins (the handful of all pro/pro bowl day one picks in '99 and '00 exempted).

Cerrato's resume absolutely sucks. There's a reason he couldn't get a look from anyone after Clark and Cerrato and the York's got rid of him, and why he couldn't get a look after Schotty bounced him.

[nneece]

Pure and simple- he is Danny's Yes Man. How has that worked out?

[The Consigliere]

hes a complete moron. look at the dudes face, look into his eyes. you can tell hes a few cards short of a full deck. he also doesnt believe in drafting dlineman in the first round. any moron knows the key to building a great defense/offense starts with your lines. he obviously was getting his lobotomy during that course.

That's truly baffling considering he and Clark put together back to back drafts where the Niners landed both Stubblefield and Bryant Young. How on earth he could have then decided this was a bad idea is beyond me. Those drafts played a key role in the Niners second wind in the mid-late nineties when the core second era niners started retiring or leaving. And yet he doesn't believe in the DL. THe only thing I can imagine is that he was perhaps not in favor of drafting either of those guys. who just happen to be probably the two best draft picks of his era w/the team (a horrible era, and truly two of the only positives).

[VinceGeorgeJoe]

No, TO isn't even in the same class as Druckenmiller. Actually, looking at TO's career stats, you'd be happy to know he was a 3rd rounder. I wouldn't have guessed that he would pan out. I have a funny feeling that everybody is going to eat their words on Vinny. I think before he was just a sidekick, and now with Gibbs gone, they formalized their structure and gave Vinny the job he was in essence doing. For better or worse, we're going to see the real Vinny for the next couple years.

Dude...My point was, TO was a great pick. Phenomenal pick in the third round. If you're going to rip him for Druck, then praise him for T.O.

The value of having Vinny is simple. He spends half his time talking Snyder out of dumb ideas. Snyder, the year the Redskins drafted Arrington, wanted to trade that pick to the Jets for Keyshawn. Vinny talked him out of it. Just an example. I'm not saying the guy's batting a thousand, but, without him, Snyder would've wreaked more havoc than he already has.

[cphil006]

Vinny Cerrato's worst move that will haunt him forever:

Trung Canidate.

What an eye for talent?

[fansince62]

Can someone list out the good moves he's made versus the bad. I see so much vitriol spewed his way and I don't know why. Someone please alleviate my ignorance with some well based facts. I see lots of "he doesn't know anything about football" type comments, yet he worked for San Fran for ~9 years. He must know something. Has he had any real control and decision making authority while here? I'm just not privy to the inner workings of the organization. Maybe someone who is can shed some light on his short commings supported by fact and not message board conjecture.

this one is easy....in a back at ya sort of way. we want trhe ebst for the Skins .We want a Ron Wolf or Ozzie Newsome or AJ Smith kinda guy making the decisions Vinny is now apparently empowered to make.

What, pray tell, in his background suggests to anyone that he is one of the elite types who can build a championship franchise? Where is the evidence? Where is the track record? Where is the professional acclamation? Where is the demand for his sevices that can serve as a proxy to validate his skills as a teambuilder and moulder of champions?

I sure as heck don't see it. He mmay very well be a great guy with some talent. but is he top flight - we should expect no less. I, for one, am tired of mediocrity.

[The Full Monty]

Vinny Cerrato's worst move that will haunt him forever:

Trung Canidate.

What an eye for talent?

I forgot that one.

[TheLongshot]

I agree 100%. Gibbs and Beathard fought like cats and dogs, but this is what produced such great results. Gibbs always had a tendency to be willing to overpay for anyone (a first and another pick for Gerald Riggs was the final straw that drove Beathard away), while Beathard pushed for bargains. There's noone telling Dan it's a 16 game season and not many starters last that long; buy low and wide so we have depth.

And in the end, Beathard left. You can't have people going after each other all the time and expect it to last. That's what I've been talking about.

Funny that you bring up RB, because between Riggins and Byner, there wasn't a whole lot. There was the broken down George Rogers, the never healthy Kelvin Bryant and the one shot wonder Timmy Smith.

While it was probably too late for Riggs, I could sense that he was the back Gibbs wanted all along, and certainly he seemed to be the classic Gibbs back. Course, we got Byner for a song, and he ended up being more productive.

Jason