Controversial Illegal Immigrant Law to Take Effect in Arizona

[Larry]

I'm wondering what kind of correlations I could find between how people feel about a the state of AZ deciding to start enforcing laws that the Feds don't feel like enforcing, vs how they feel about the state of CA enforcing laws that the Feds don't feel like enforcing.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I think you just became member #141.

Oh I've been a proud member for awhile now.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Oh I've been a proud member for awhile now.

I became a member once but he still replies to me every so often. So he might have you on the list like the mods do when people are banned...there's perma-banned or temporarily banned. MSF must purge his list every so often, unless you're perma-blocked.

[Kosher Ham]

Better border security = less illegals even in the position to try to obtain work.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I became a member once but he still replies to me every so often. So he might have you on the list like the mods do when people are banned...there's perma-banned or temporarily banned. MSF must purge his list every so often, unless you're perma-blocked.

Yeah I'm on his list a second time now. He granted the entire list amnesty after the "Ask MSF a Question" thread awhile back. I managed to make it back on though.

[GSF]

It will be very interesting to follow how this turns out in Arizona.

[GSF]

I think a lot of the illegals in Arizona could wind up in Las Vegas, NV. Vegas with all of its hotels, casinos, golf courses, and new home construction has become very reliant on immigrant labor.

I think we may wind up see some states taking in illegals as other like Arizona pass laws to get them to self-deport. It will be interesting to see how things play out in the different states.

Of course a good guest worker program solves all of these problems, but we're probably still a few years away from that, unfortunately.

[DjTj]

When did it become the job of employers, hell, even state governments, to secure our borders? If the federal government cannot do its job, the free market should not be punished for hiring the cheapest available labor.

Neither the states, nor private employers, should be held accountable for the federal government's abject failure in performing its duty of securing our borders.

I'm sorry, but this is the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard against (for?) illegal immigration.

If we shouldn't hold the states or private employers accountable, should we also not hold the illegal immigrants accountable? After all, they're only taking advantage of simply supply and demand by seeking the highest possible wage for their labor. It's not their fault that the federal government looks the other way when they cross the border.

Would you also stop punishing bar owners that serve to underage drinkers? The government should be properly educating kids on the dangers of alcohol and shutting down the fake ID market. While we're at it, why don't we lay off of organized crime? All they're doing is utilizing the free market supply of drugs, guns, and hookers, and the government should really be stopping that stuff at the border. And maybe we should just let Osama Bin Laden go. All he did was take advantage of the free market supply of Islamic Jihadists. He wouldn't have even been responsible for 9/11 if the government had been doing its job keeping terrorists out of the country.

Punishing employers is an essential part of the government's effort to curb illegal immigration. The entire problem is an issue of supply and demand, and you can't address the issue without pushing on both sides. As long as the demand is there, illegal immigrants will find a way to get here. If they can't walk across the desert, they will hide in the backs of trucks. They will stow away in shipping containers from China. They will take rafts across the Caribbean.

And many will simply do it the easiest way: More than 40% of illegals cross the border with a legal visa; they simply overstay their visas after an employer (illegally) gives them a job.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5485917

In my opinion, the most effective way to curb immigration is to enforce the laws strictly against employers. It's hard to deter the illegals because they have nothing to lose - if they are caught and sent home they'll just come back again. You need to go after the businesses that have an actual stake in this country and real incentives to follow our laws.

[Kosher Ham]

Construction is key to illegal job opportunities.

I remember as a kid my dad telling me that if I didn't take care of business in school, that I would end up digging ditches or working at Mickey D's. Those jobs already had a negative connotation by the time I was old enough to work.

So many Americans (IMO) would rather be unemployed than work at certain jobs. Whereas someone just trying to survive will happily make that 6 bucks an hour.

[GSF]

In my opinion, the most effective way to curb immigration is to enforce the laws strictly against employers.

The federal government could drastically reduce the number of illegals here very quickly by simply passing a law requiring employers to verify workers' SS#s. They know this, but they don't do it b/c they know that illegal immigrants have become a very important part of the economy in many parts of the country.

[Fergasun]

The federal government could drastically reduce the number of illegals here very quickly by simply passing a law requiring employers to verify workers' SS#s. They know this, but they don't do it b/c they know that illegal immigrants have become a very important part of the economy in many parts of the country.

That's not true. A bill has been introduced in the House to do exactly this. It was introduced by none other than Heath Shuler, and has a number of bi-partisan co-sponsers. Link here

Employers would be required to verify their workers are in the U.S. legally, under a bill Rep. Heath Shuler will introduce next week. Shuler, D-Waynesville, who said turning off the employment magnet will reduce illegal immigration, has added 75 House Democratic and Republican co-sponsors for the measure. The bill would require employers to verify workers’ status through a Department of Homeland Security database, which currently is voluntary.

...

Democracy Corps, a polling company run by Democrats Stan Greenberg and James Carville, released a memo this week warning Democrats that illegal immigration has caused current voter discontent. Many Americans wonder why the U.S. has lost control of its borders and doesn’t go after illegal employment, the memo said.

“Voters want control of the borders and workplace and (to re-create) an immigration system that works and oppose driver’s licenses for illegal immigrants — positions supported by about two-thirds of the country,” the memo said. “If political leaders do not start there, they are not likely to be heard on other steps.”

But stronger enforcement will do little to stem the tide of illegal immigration because the U.S. economy has a big need for workers, said Douglas Rivlin, a spokesman for the National Immigration Forum, which supports comprehensive immigration reform.

Gotta love the line by the "National Immigration Forum" spokesman... wonder what they are going to say if we ever enter a recession...

[GSF]

What part of what I said wasn't true? The law doesn't exist yet, and similar bills have been introduced before. We've known about this for years, yet we haven't done it. Why?

[81artmonk]

I'm wondering what kind of correlations I could find between how people feel about a the state of AZ deciding to start enforcing laws that the Feds don't feel like enforcing, vs how they feel about the state of CA enforcing laws that the Feds don't feel like enforcing.

I live in Cali and would love for my state to do the exact same thing AZ is doing!!!!

My family and I have to keep moving east in order to escape the mexican onslaught invading our neighborhoods. We moved into a majority white neighborhood and in 6 years we became the only white family living there and on top of that, every night a police helicopter was above the neighborhood trying to nab a criminal.

California is kinda like AZ in that it is a safe harbor state. there's work and money to be had and it's close to mexico. We are overrun here by illegals and every state official supports them in coming here. It's really sad.

[Larry]

I live in Cali and would love for my state to do the exact same thing AZ is doing!!!!

My family and I have to keep moving east in order to escape the mexican onslaught invading our neighborhoods. We moved into a majority white neighborhood and in 6 years we became the only white family living there and on top of that, every night a police helicopter was above the neighborhood trying to nab a criminal.

California is kinda like AZ in that it is a safe harbor state. there's work and money to be had and it's close to mexico. We are overrun here by illegals and every state official supports them in coming here. It's really sad.

What I was referring to was AZ writing their own immigration policy, vs CA writing it's own environmental policy.

[81artmonk]

What I was referring to was AZ writing their own immigration policy, vs CA writing it's own environmental policy.

I know, and I agree. Most of the people running california are rejects from the 60's who smoked too much pot and other drugs, who think saving a tree is better, than policy that helps their fellow man.

[GSF]

Hey Fergusun, I'm still waiting for you to tell me what part of my post wasn't true.

Also, the article you posted was from Nov. 2. What's the latest on this bill being passed? I can't find anything.

I did find these comments from an article NC newspaper that back up what I've been saying all along:

But employers like Mike Long, president of Taylor & Murphy Construction Co. in Asheville, say they doubt Shuler’s proposal will become law because the country can’t afford to lose such a large portion of its work force.

“I don’t think it’s going to be passed, because the economic impact would be tremendous. I think we’re going to have to have some sort of guest worker program,” said Long.

Campos said she’s been told by her Capitol Hill contacts that passage of Shuler’s bill is unlikely because it’s not a priority of the House leadership.

Mark Gibney, a professor in the political science department at UNC Asheville, agrees.

“I just don’t think Congress is in the mood for an immigration bill,” he said. “Liberals and conservatives haven’t been able to find common ground. Both sides are digging in their heels on this.”

This bill is not going to get passed Fergusun, just like all of the other similar anti-immigration bills that have come and gone. So tell me, what did I say that wasn't true?

[81artmonk]

This arguement that I have been hearing throughout this thread is disurbing and I think is indicitive of how our government works on this issue. The one where there are too many of them and we cannot lose them, the fiscal impact would be too great, or there are too many to deport, it's a logistical nightmare.

Why don't we have that attitude about illegal drugs?? Or criminals?? There are too many doing it and we can't rationally solve the problem. Or, we can't stop Illegal drugs, and the financial impact it would have on the poor communities would be too great!

We are basically saying, the feds aren't doing their job. People have chosen to break the law by hiring these people. (sorry, but you can't tell me that at least 90% of these employers aren't aware that they are illegal or suspect) As an aside I have a friend in the construction biz and he knows everyone of his hires is illegal.

anyway, so we are going to give these people a pass on breaking the law since it would harm them and those they hire?? What kind of attitude is that??

Sorry, but when your home is overrun by termites, you don't surrender the home to the insects, you call an expert in to free your home of them. This excuse I hear on this thread is surrendering the home to the illegals!!

[GSF]

This arguement that I have been hearing throughout this thread is disurbing and I think is indicitive of how our government works on this issue. The one where there are too many of them and we cannot lose them, the fiscal impact would be too great, or there are too many to deport, it's a logistical nightmare.

Why don't we have that attitude about illegal drugs?? Or criminals?? There are too many doing it and we can't rationally solve the problem. Or, we can't stop Illegal drugs, and the financial impact it would have on the poor communities would be too great!

Illegal drugs and criminals aren't a vital part of our economy. According to business leaders from all around our country, illegals are. There's a big difference there.

Last year, local lawmakers introduced a bill here in GA that would have made it illegal to rent to illegals, and for employers to hire illegals. The bill was the top story on the news for weeks. The billed got squashed at the last minute when local business leaders told lawmakers that the bill would be very harmful to local businesses and the economy. The bill just dissappeared, just like Shuler's bill is going to do.

Shuler's bill is only half of the solution. We need a guest worker program, coupled with stronger border security and the enforcement employment laws that require employers to verify status.

[Fergasun]

This bill is not going to get passed Fergusun, just like all of the other similar anti-immigration bills that have come and gone. So tell me, what did I say that wasn't true?

Yup, you're right. I just wanted to point out there is a push from "some" in Congress, a bi-partisan "some" to pass exactly what you are advocating. I shouldn't have been so loose with my words.

Anyway, if we enter a recession in 2008 what's going to be the attitude towards illegals?

[GSF]

Yup, you're right. I just wanted to point out there is a push from "some" in Congress, a bi-partisan "some" to pass exactly what you are advocating. I shouldn't have been so loose with my words.

Anyway, if we enter a recession in 2008 what's going to be the attitude towards illegals?

I can't answer your question, because I don't know very much about the economy or how recessions work. I believe that we need these folks here on some level or we wouldn't allow them to be here. I am an employer, and I know many other employers that rely on immigrant labor.

I also believe that if we foolishly allow the situation to go unregulated the problems with health-care, schools, identity fraud, ect. are going to get much worse. I think the problems we see in California will spread to the rest of the country.

The only solution IMO is a comprehensive guest worker program that includes increased border security and enforcement of employment laws.

[Fergasun]

GSF,

I always thought of you as an "open borders" type, so good on you if you recently changed your position.

I agree we need a guest worker program and enforcement of the laws. Unfortunately I'm afraid if that is done we won't get the harsh enforcement... they already can enforce the immigration laws harshly if they want to, but no administration is willing to. Even though there is the pilot verification program up and running.

Do you use the verification program for your business?

[GSF]

I have never been for open borders. You might be thinking of a different poster. I am in favor of a guest worker program. A guest worker program will allow our government to finally enforce employment laws without hurting businesses. We can't enforce employment/immigration laws now b/c it will hurt our economy. That's the whole point I'm trying to make here. Do you follow me?

To your other question, no I don't verify my employees status at my business. If I was forced to by law, I'd probably be out of business. I don't need to verify their status anyway. I know they're mostly illegal.

[GSF]

Question for you guys. Forget about what you've heard or read about immigration for a minute. Common sense question:

Do you believe that removing 10 million + workers from our country would be a good thing?