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Israeli minister: 'US ignoring Iran threat like it did Auschwitz'...


JMS

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It really bugs me when Israeli's try to lay the hollocost on America's doorstep like we were responsible. Or worse try to motivate us with their warped perception of reality.

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3480595,00.html

Shas minister: Americans' attitude to report reminiscent of Auschwitz

Yitzhak Cohen says during cabinet meeting 'US intelligence report was ordered by someone who wants dialogue with Tehran. Minister Eli Yishai: 'We must not play dumb in the face of the report's findings'

Roni Sofer

The manner in which the Americans relate to the intelligence report on Iran is similar to the way in which they viewed those reports they received during the Holocaust on railways transporting hundreds of thousands of Jews to their death at Auschwitz," Minister Yitzhak Cohen of Shas said during a security cabinet meeting Sunday morning on the Iranian nuclear issue.

"It can not be that (US President George W.) Bush is committed to peace as was declared at Annapolis, and then the Americans propagate such an intelligence report which contradicts the information we have proving Iran intends to obtain nuclear weapons," Cohen said. "How can we rely on the Americans if they publish this report that emasculates what the world explicitly knows regarding Iran, and renders impotent the entire struggle against the Iranians?"

Minister Cohen asserted that the report must have been "ordered by someone who wants dialogue with Tehran" and formulated an historical analogy to express just how serious the situation is: "In the middle of the previous century the Americans received intelligence reports from Auschwitz on the packed trains going to the extermination camps. They claimed then that the railways were industrial. Their attitude today to the information coming out of Iran on the Iranians' intention to produce a nuclear bomb reminds one of their attitude during the holocaust."

Cabinet Member Cohen had this to say to his fellow ministers not present in the meeting: "Whoever thinks that the president of Iran is a lover of Zion, with Kosher certification from the Americans, misleads and is mislead. He is not a lover of Zion, but instead an aspiring strangler of Zion. Someone in America fell asleep on his watch, but we must remain awake and aware."

'Pressure on Iran must continue'

Neither Cohen nor the Shas party would confirm nor deny the remarks the minister made in the meeting.

Earlier a senior security source told Ynet that "Iran will do all in its power to proceed on the path (to a nuclear weapon), while trying to confuse the western world." In the meeting, policy makers attempted to formulate the Israeli response to the American National Intelligence Estimate, published last week, which asserted that Iran suspended its activities for acquiring nuclear weapons in 2003.

British ResponseReport: UK spy chiefs believe Iran 'deceived' CIA over nuclear program Sunday Telegraph report says British intelligence has serious doubts that Tehran has shelved nuclear weapons program. 'Iranian nuclear staff, knowing their phones were tapped, deliberately gave misinformation; they will say anything to throw us off,' UK official quoted as saying

לכתבה המלאה

Cabinet ministers were be briefed on the issue after the meeting but are not yet expected to make any decisions regarding the Israeli response to the report, which will likely prevent the imposition of a third round of economic sanctions on Iran by the UN Security Council.

The uniform stance of most cabinet members is that Israel must neutralize the effects of the American intelligence report.

According to senior ministers, Israel has information proving that Iran did not cease in its efforts to obtain a nuclear bomb, and is only acting in secret. Nevertheless, none of the three top ministers, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak, or Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni seeks to create a confrontation with the American administration.

A senior security official who has seen the materials Israel possesses claims that there is enough incriminating information regarding Iran's intentions.

"Even if the world lacks clear evidence, the (Iranian) agenda is clear. We have no doubt that it is (President Mahmoud) Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollahs who are directing the program. Israel has gathered enough information to obligate the international community to continue with its intensive activity against creating a bomb," he said.

Yishai: Delaying the inevitable

Deputy Prime Minister Eli Yishai, also of Shas, said before the cabinet meeting: "International pressure on Iran must continue. We know the truth, as does the rest of the world. We must not play dumb in the face of the report's supposed findings. This report is mistaken and is only trying to delay the inevitable. It has only intensified the danger. Don't say this is more of the usual, because we are thus likely to fall asleep and wake up with a nuclear Iran."

Minister Yishai warned that "these attempts at postponement endanger us and the world at large."

According to the minister, this is not the right time to address the possibility of an Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear facilities, but that "we must act on all levels to eliminate the Iranian danger."

Over the weekend NATO foreign ministers met and decided to continue applying pressure on Iran after European Union leaders expressed the identical opinion in a meeting last week with American Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

Foreign Minister Livni, who met with Rice in Brussels during the NATO convention, welcomed the unified front, but instructed Israeli ambassadors and representatives throughout the world to expand the diplomatic struggle to impose additional sanctions on Iran.

The Foreign Ministry, it seems, fears Moscow and Beijing will use the NIE's findings as an excuse to veto any such sanctions on Iran in the Security Council, which is set to begin conducting on the issue Monday.

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Americans are not supporting the war in Iran, like they did in Iraq, so let Isreal do it, like they did in Syria a month or so ago. We'll just get thier back, when they are unjustly attacked.

I don't think Israel can do much to Iran. Iran is a country of almost 70 million people. Israel is a country of less than 10% of that size. They IDF doesn't have enough ground forces to invade even if they could somehow get to the boarders, which they can't.

Israel can bomb them, maybe. They bombed Iraq back in 1981, one sortee each of three or four fighters. Very professional job from a very professional airforce; but the US has estimated it would take us several weeks flying thousands of sortees from hundreds of strategic bombers and fighters to do a decent job on where we thought their nuclear program was. Israel doesn't have that type of airforce.

The ISraeli Airforce as all of the Israeli forces are defensive in nature. They are not equipt or built to project power removed from their boarders; something a conflict with Iran would requir.

So Israel's options are limited. They've got good comando type special forces for a raid. But that wouldn't do much. Nope, If Israel can't talk us into take care of the issue; short of nukes, Israel doesn't have much of a play.

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Irsrael has over 200 nukes; they can wipe Iran off the map.

Everyone knows one of the reasons we went to war with Iraq was for Israel. Saddam was paying their Palestinian suicide bombers families. Israel wanted Saddam taken out. that's not the main reason but one of the reason Why Bush went to war with Iraq.

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Not that I want to get into a political argument, but for as much money, weapons and support as we've given Israel over the years, you'd think they'd give us a break. I know it's not that simple, but it's damned irritating to read something like that. If we stopped supporting them and said "hey, you're on your own", how long would they last?

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I think I'm going to side against the Minister on this one not because I think that the US did the right thing in delaying its entrance into WWII or turning away boatloads of Jews that wound up being slaughtered (even if they didn't really know that would happen) but because I think the Holocaust is too casually evoked these days.

I feel irritation when people call Bush, Hitler or Cheney, Hitler or even to a greater degree Snyder Hitler. This association of everything we dislike to Hitler minimizes just how horrific and monstrous Hitler and the Nazis were.

Iran's nuclear program is frightening and the Iran's words are even more so, but words are not Auschwitz. There are ways to bring forward the reality of this fear or this threat without trivializing history. I think this evocation is trivializing History. Now, if he had said that Europe is ignoring this like they did the German Arms build-up or the first incursions up to the magic line in the sand that was Poland, then I would say you could at least make a comparison.

What was done at Auschwitz was one of the most horrific acts in modern history. Israel has the right to conjure that ghost, but this does not warrant that evocation... and hopefully never will.

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Because of the coalition nature of Israel's government, the Shas party gets to have a few ministers in that government. Shas is the party of ultra-orthodox Judiasm, and has 12 seats out of 120 in the Knesset.

This guy's comments at a closed door cabinet meeting are not the same as an open statement by the actual leader of Israel.

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I think I'm going to side against the Minister on this one not because I think that the US did the right thing in delaying its entrance into WWII or turning away boatloads of Jews that wound up being slaughtered (even if they didn't really know that would happen) but because I think the Holocaust is too casually evoked these days.

We turn away all sorts of folks from our boarders every day. If you ask me whether America was an anti semetic country by today's standards prior to WWII, I say likely yes. So was Britain, so were most countries including most of the countries who eventually defeated Germany. Anti semitism was much more wide spread back them, I believe. We didn't have the genocidal maniacs that Germany did. Anti semitism was something learned people just didn't take notice of, until Hitler openned everybody's eyes to it. I mean hell we were still a segragated racist country too.

What buggs me about this ministers speach isn't that he deluted the name of Hitler. What buggs me about this ministers words were trying to make Auschwitz America's responsibility. America's fault. Even saying America could have or should have prevented it. All of which I find insulting, and historically wrong headed.

America wasn't a super power at the beginning of WWII. America had a military approximately the size of Belguim in 1938. The US military survived being dispanded in 1941 a few months before Perl Harbor by a single congressional vote. America was an isolationist country in the 1930's, that's the course George Washington set out for us in his farewell address and except for a few noteable exceptions that's the coarse we held. Hell, We didn't even have a working torpedo in the entire navy until 1942.

Suggesting we were in position or somehow failed to confront Hitler before he came to power, is farsical. Saying we didn't act fast enough after he came to power is even more silly. The greatest military in the world in the late 1930's was France, and Germany took care of them in what less than a week?

The only reason America supported WWII was because the Japanese attacked us first, and even then the President decided to fight the European war first.

Did we turn back Jewish refugees who attempted to enter the US without papers. Absolutely. Was it a mistake in hindsight, absolutely. Did many of those folks die in the camps, yes. But that isn't our fault. We turn back Vietnamese, Hatian, Cuban, and Chinese boat people every day. Are their faite's somehow our responsibility? Is Israel doing anything to accept more of these people? Was Israel responsible for any of the attrocities since the holicost because they failed to lift a finger to stop them. Cambodia? The Balkins?

We have laws about immigration and those laws are among the most liberal in the world as they were in the 1930's. Significanly more liberal than Israel's I might tell this minister. I wish they were more liberal in the 1930's but that's a far cry from accepting any responsibility for the holicost.

Anyway I don't think you and I disagree on this issue. We might disagree on why the article is most objectionable though.

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I will also add, that, at least from accounts I have read, many people found it hard to believe what was happening to the Jews at that time. Some of the stories that made it over here were so outrageous, so heinous, so beyond any manner of comprehension (I think we still can't properly comphrehend it) that there was a deep level of skepticism on the part of Americans and their leaders.

That, and JMS's point that we were hardly the power at that time we are now. The reason it took us so long to get involved, and then, to invade Europe was because, simply, we didn't have the ability to do so.

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Irsrael has over 200 nukes; they can wipe Iran off the map.

That being said, you have to remember their culture. They will NOT take the first swing. However geographically, they can't afford to receive one either. Just like Taiwan, we have their back. But it's gonna spin out of control and lead to WW3 if we aren't careful. After the Olympics, if China sees our forces spread out enough across the middle east, she will most likely make a move on Taiwan. This is undoubtedly bad since India, Russia, Iran & China are friends.

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That being said, you have to remember their culture. They will NOT take the first swing. However geographically, they can't afford to receive one either. Just like Taiwan, we have their back. But it's gonna spin out of control and lead to WW3 if we aren't careful. After the Olympics, if China sees our forces spread out enough across the middle east, she will most likely make a move on Taiwan. This is undoubtedly bad since India, Russia, Iran & China are friends.

Uh, Israel takes "first swings" all the time...everybody does. Also, aren't you pretty much in pro-WW3, Mr. endtimes?

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That being said, you have to remember their culture. They will NOT take the first swing. However geographically, they can't afford to receive one either. Just like Taiwan, we have their back. But it's gonna spin out of control and lead to WW3 if we aren't careful. After the Olympics, if China sees our forces spread out enough across the middle east, she will most likely make a move on Taiwan. This is undoubtedly bad since India, Russia, Iran & China are friends.

As much as I like the people of Taiwan, I am not ready to start a nuclear war over her, and I suspect the leaders of our government tend to agree.

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Uh, Israel takes "first swings" all the time...everybody does. Also, aren't you pretty much in pro-WW3, Mr. endtimes?

Not one of this consequence they won't.......They are nervous tat the US isn't gonna back'm as much as we say.

As for being PRO-WAR, no, no I'm not......While Biblical events are speeding up, my push for everyone to know these things is based off another prophecy.

Not ALL people ( tribes in the OT ) will be effected by the upcoming events.....it looks like we will be however I feel there's a chance we could be the 4th people that goes unharmed by the RFID in the Bible. The other 3 are obvious because their names are given.

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As much as I like the people of Taiwan, I am not ready to start a nuclear war over her, and I suspect the leaders of our government tend to agree.

Than we shouldn't of signed that defense pact with her.

China has the population size, # of soldiers AND the need to fulfill a major Biblical prophecy. I don't think China wants war, I think they NEED it.

No post-Roman empire has come to be a world superpower without a major war perching them atop.

China has already threatened the US that they would exchange millions of people and cities to attain Taiwan. On a worse note, a high government official said either to C. Rice or another ( similar looking Black woman ) that the US wouldn't be willing to trade L.A. for Taiwan.......

Those Subs that China showed off to Taiwan and the US that are undetecable was NOT an accident.......

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Than we shouldn't of signed that defense pact with her.

What defense pact? We haven't had a defense pact with Taiwan for 25 years.

China has the population size, # of soldiers AND the need to fulfill a major Biblical prophecy. I don't think China wants war, I think they NEED it.

No post-Roman empire has come to be a world superpower without a major war perching them atop.

That means nothing. War used to be the only way to get to the top, but you can do it now with economics. The European Union is rapidly becoming a superpower that way, as is China.

China has already threatened the US that they would exchange millions of people and cities to attain Taiwan. On a worse note, a high government official said either to C. Rice or another ( similar looking Black woman ) that the US wouldn't be willing to trade L.A. for Taiwan.......

I'd like to see a link for that, but frankly, it's not that astounding a statement. Would we be willing to do that? I doubt it.

Those Subs that China showed off to Taiwan and the US that are undetecable was NOT an accident.......

Diesel subs that can go electric for a while are nothing new. They have a very limited range and are very very slow when they do it. That said, there is no doubt that the Chinese subs are getting better. So what.

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I'm going to walk a fine line here. I think America should be ashamed of some of its actions and inactions before and around our entry into WWII. Whether it be about Japanese internment, turning away immigrants into a war zone, or other things. However, I think America shares no part of the blame for the Hollocaust or those who suffered in it.

In this same way, I feel some shame that we are not doing more to help the Sudanese in Darfur or the Rwandans. I think it is a stain. I do not think we are guilty of allowing slaughter or causing slaughter. (Mind you, I think all civilized people of the world share this stain)

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What defense pact? We haven't had a defense pact with Taiwan for 25 years.

You are right. There is no defense treaty. You can't have a US Taiwan defense treaty because it's official American policy that Taiwan is part of China. Nixon signed us up for a one China policy back in the early 1970's.

What we have is less formal. A defense Pact for lack of a better word is a good way of stating it.. All it say is If China invades Taiwan, The US will consider it a serious move and the President has to call together the chairman of certain congressional comittees and discuss it with them. We are not committed to taking any action, but nor have we stated we wouldn't take actionl. It's supposed to disuade both sides from seeking a violent solution to their differences.

That means nothing. War used to be the only way to get to the top, but you can do it now with economics. The European Union is rapidly becoming a superpower that way, as is China.

Besides that, Taiwan is about a hundred miles off of China's shores. Since 1948 when the Chineese Republicans relocated to Taiwan; China has lacked the miltiary might to project power that far off shores. Taiwan flies top of the line American fighters and so most military experts do not believe China has the capablity to sucessfully invade Taiwan in the sort of numbers required to be sucessful. That's without US or Japanese assistance; which likely would be comming quickly.

As for China's nuking LA. China has already said they would not be the first to use Nuclear weapons. Why, cause when you have a billion and a half people; Nukes aren't to your advantage.

I'd like to see a link for that, but frankly, it's not that astounding a statement. Would we be willing to do that? I doubt it.

China is currently more important to America economically than Taiwan. Problem for China is that Taiwan is very very important economically to China. It's the #1 investor in China. China takes the long view. Eventually Taiwan will want to join the ranks, cause economically it will eventually just be better for them. China would only jump the gun perhaps if Taiwan tried to declair independence.

Diesel subs that can go electric for a while are nothing new. They have a very limited range and are very very slow when they do it. That said, there is no doubt that the Chinese subs are getting better. So what.

China has a formatable blue water nuclear navy (subs) to join those diesel subs. Not up to the US standards but still a significant navy growing all the time..

They're building quite a few new ships. American and Japanese investment has modernized their ship building capability in order to build new merchant ships. It's very troubleing, but their designs are Russian and we were pretty sucessful in scoping out the Russions.

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