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With Semple...is O Line complete?


skinsfanbu

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It seems that the line may be complete with the addition of SEmple. There's Brandt for right guard. He's shown at least enough to get a strong try-out. Fischer for back up. Sign an after June 1 veterean to a minimum contract and save draft space for D line.<br /><br />HTTR,

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The Skins will sign another free agent for starting at RG. Brandt is a good prospect, but he needs another year, and will provide depth in the meantime. Fischer is coming off a serious knee injury. He will probably sign somewhere, but only on a 1 year trial basis. He would be a good backup again, until we see where his knee is at. <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" />

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No the line is not finished. <br /><br />That'd give Samuels, Semple, the center from the colts, and janson as definate starters. Then your projecting Brandt as the other guard. But remember last year? Mookie was all but annointed the starter and couldn't hack it. Then Campbell was starting (coleman was injured) and couldn't hack it. They tried that 350 lb. fellow and he couldn't hack it.<br /><br />The line is most definately NOT finished. I'm not saying Brandt will go the way of Mookie, Shar Pourdanesh, Joe Patton, Brian Thure, et al. But it'd be nice to have "plan b" in case "plan A" fails. <br /><br />Depth is ALWAYS a good thing. Right now, the backups, with Brandt penciled in as starter are Alex Sulfsted and Ross Tucker. Feel comfortable with that? And Brandt was a center in college, maybe he makes a servicable guard. Maybe not.

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There's the rub, Orange. What direction do we go to fill the "final" starting spot? I like the direction we are heading at the moment. If we add Semple, who has experience at both guard and center, with the addition of Moore, we have the makings of a solid interior pass blocking line. Perhaps not a dominating run blocking line, but, with Spurrier's offense, I'd argue the true power running game where we line up, grind out yards and gash people won't really exist as it did with Marty.<br /><br />With Spurrier, the defense won't be able to bunch up so much. There'll be more room to run and the line doesn't have to bull people so much as it needs to get in the way of people. Certainly Szott and Raymer were superior run blockers. But, Semple and Moore are better fits for what Spurrier's offense requires in the running game and they are better pass blockers, though, Szott was pretty solid to be certain.<br /><br />I'd like to round out the line with another vet. One who can go inside and be a factor, but who also has the ability to play at tackle should one of our rocks get hurt. This is why I do like Oben so much because he'd fit that roll and the line would be nicely versatile. I don't see us using a first round pick on a guard under any circumstances. Hell, last year when we HAD to have a guard and Hutchinson was right there, we let him go. Whether the Guarode or Fonoti are there or not is irrelevant. Both would be GREAT picks for this team, but, to my way of thinking, guard is seemingly the easiest position to fill and we can fill it without burning a first round pick. Anything below a first rounder won't likely be able to start anyway, so, we need to round out the line with free agency.<br /><br />Again, John Henderson is the guy I pray falls because he's the best value at the most needy position that can ACTUALLY contribute to a winning team right away. Harrington can't do that. Henderson can. Whether either falls is the main question and I suspect we'll end up getting Kalimba Edwards and generally be somewhat deflated <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> .

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I sure hope we dont draft Kalimba Edwards, because I think he is a tweener. <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> He doesnt have the size to play the run as a DE, nor the instinct to play OLB. For all his great speed in the 40, he only had 2 sacks in 2001, and 7 in 2000! <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" />

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Dark Horse,<br />Its hard for us as fans to judge OL, as we dont have access to game film. Even if we did, very few of us would know what the heck we should be evaluating. We just have go by what the coach's say, when they acquire a player, and hope they know what they are talking about.<br /><br />With respect to Larry Moore, it seems to me with the success the Colt offense had -- with him in the lineup -- his blocking must have been good. Otherwise, if he was a weak link, the Colts would not have been able to move the ball, running or passing.<br /><br />Semple, is a little harder to judge, because the Lions were terrible last year. But the fact that he has survived as a starter for many years, probably indicates that he is a decent guard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" />

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Here are grades for the O-line players, provided by Coachscout.com. The evaluations is similar to that use for the draft. The Rank is the rank at that position.<br />Gone are <br />Pos Name Rank Score <br />LG..Szott,......2...... 647.33<br />C...Raymer......13..... 585.07<br />RG..Coleman.....18..... 551.17<br />In are <br />C...Moore.......33..... 489.13 <br />LG..Semple......23......516.27 <br />The talent coming in is not nearly as good as leaving. Many of the members of this board wanted Raymer gone, but he was in the top third of Centers. Szott wass second only to Alan Franca of Pittsburgh. Coleman is at the middle of the right guards.<br /><br />This is the biggest problem the Skins have now.<br /> <br /> <small>[ March 23, 2002, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: SB33 ]</small>

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In total, I don't believe either Moore or Semple is as good as Raymer or Szott. The "rankings" below are pretty worthless considering they rank Moore at center and he didn't play center the last two years, so, that he even made the list is either an impressive testement to a guard or a lack of awareness by the site.<br /><br />Still, Moore is a better in pass protection than Raymer was. He clearly understands that and seems to enjoy it more from his own statements. This will benefit our line. Semple is no where hear the player Szott was, though, one could argue in pass protection he's not far off if he's not better. Again, this is what the interior of our line must become. A pass blocking unit. It's not that we won't run, but, we'll run in totally different ways than we have in many years.<br /><br />We don't need maulers to run now. We do need guys who can pass protect. In what we have gotten in Moore, we've achieved that. If we get Semple, we will be a fine offensive line for pass protection if weaker in run blocking. These are fine moves given our projected type of offense. If we were going to have Marty still at coach, we'd have to be worried over these moves because neither guy has the "reputation" as a grinder. Of course, if we had Marty as coach, we'd still have Szott and Raymer <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> .

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There would be nothing deflating about Kalimba Edwards. We need pash rushers, pass rushers, and MORE pass rushers.<br /><br />John Henderson is a run stuffer. And they are a hell of a lot easier to find then pass rushers. IF any of you consider John Abraham a guy you would like to have, then Kalimba Edwards is your guy. Not quite as fast but taller and heavier with a frame to put on even more weight. <br /><br />I repeat there would be NOTHING deflating about drafting Mr. Edwards. In fact, I can't think of anyone I'd rather have (within reason) except Harrington.

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Kalimba Edwards<br /><br />Positives: Very good all-around athlete. Smooth and fluid for his size. Looks like he was built to rush the passer with excellent height and arms down to his knees. As a full-time end, should be able to carry 275-280 pounds when he is finished growing and filling in. Both quick off the ball and fast and has a second gear he can turn on when closing in on or chasing the quarterback or ballcarrier. Uses his hands well and can counter as a pass rusher and change directions when chasing the ball without much wasted motion. Edwards also looks like he can turn his hips OK when he drops off into coverage, but he will generally move up and play defensive end on passing downs.<br /><br />Negatives: Coming off a knee injury. Did not make many big plays or really stand out as a senior before he was hurt. Does not have a great frame for growing. Is a little narrow and has thin bones. Lacks functional playing strength when he plays down and has a hard time shedding blocks if he does not win with his first move and the offensive lineman gets his hands on him. Could be ’tweener, and is a player who a team must have a plan for if he is to realize his potential in the NFL.<br /><br />Summary: Could be a special player in the right scheme or an average one if he is just plugged into a conventional position, be it at end or outside linebacker in a conventional 4-3 defense

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Dirk,<br /><br />Everytime you look at Kalimba Edwards, you see John Abraham. Everytime I look at him, I see Mike Mamula. If, at No. 18, he was the player left to us, I would be happy with it. He's a quality guy, with good speed and the ability to provide us a pass rush if he works out. But, if I have Henderson sitting there and I have to pick between Henderson and Edwards, there's NO question which way I go.<br /><br />Besides, I'm willing to wager Alex Brown is in a free fall into the second round and if so, he won't likely fall past us. Now, if Henderson and Harrington are both gone, it is a legitimate thought that Edwards would be as sweet a pick up as there is available.

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Mike Mamula was a guy who was semi-productive in college and then had the workout of workouts and his stock shot through the roof. He was the epitome of a workout warrior.<br /><br />Edwards had a so-so workout but was very productive when he was on the field and healthy. He was a player that offensive coordinators had to game plan for and around. He was one of the few good defenders that South Carolina had and it could be argued that South Carolina's defense was just as good as Tennesee's last year. Henderson was not even the best defensive lineman on Tennessee, let alone the best defensive player.<br /><br />I know we're not arguing college productivity here but how one's skills will translate to the NFL. Well, apparently John Henderson is just as much of a tweener as Kalimba Edwards:<br /><br />Positives: Good character, coachable and has good attention to detail. Great size and size potential with a very large wingspan. Is hard to throw over. Can use his hands and lock out with his arms. Is just developing and growing into his body and developing pass-rush moves to take advantage of his size and wingspan. Is learning how to play lower than he did with a better pad level. Can be dominating when he keeps his pads way down and plays with good leverage, but that is tough to do at Henderson’s height. Henderson is rangy, can run and moves very well for a big man once he gets going. He can come off a block and even defeat the double-team when his pads are low and can be very disruptive inside. He also has the speed and motor to chase, and at times, he even can catch up to the wide play and the quarterback. <br /><br />Negatives: Has a hard time getting his pads down because he is so tall, has long legs and is a little stiff. Has also had back problems, which may compound the problem. Is not overly instinctive or natural and at times will not know where the ball is. Still needs to refine and improve his techniques and to learn how to use his great wingspan more to his advantage. He also is a much better player early in games and in games in which he shares time, which indicates he may not have the stamina to play every down without rotating. Is a little bit of a DLE-DT tweener who is more upright than scouts would like inside and not quick and sudden enough to be a top outside rusher.<br /><br />Summary: If his ankle and back check out, Henderson will be a first-round pick and could be an early one if he has great workouts. Is a little like former Alabama All-American and Colts first-round pick Jon Hand and has some similarities to former Vanderbilt star and Eagles DE Dennis Harrison.

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Dirk,<br /><br />I'm not a Mamula expert and I don't claim the Big East is as competitive as the SEC, but, Mamula was named to the all-decade Big East team and he did have 13 or 14 sacks with 70-something tackles in his final year at BC. He wasn't an unproductive player.<br /><br />Kalimba Edwards is, to me, a whole lot like Mamula. At 6-5 (or 6-6 depending where you read), 251 pounds, that's a ton like Mamula's 6-4, 252 pounds. Now, I think Edwards might be able to take on weight, but, he is certainly a tweener. Henderson doesn't have the speed to be a defensive end and it's unlikely he's a tweener.<br /><br />Henderson wasn't as productive as a senior as he was as a junior. But, if you could take either guy at the same time, I think most would prefer Henderson. You wouldn't and that's cool, but, Mamula was generally seen as a pretty productive college player who was a Top 10 prospect based in part -- perhaps large part -- due to his great workout. <br /><br />Edwards is a fine player and I won't cry if we get him. Unless of course we get him and pass over Henderson <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> .

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We'll sign another guard, and hopefully re-sign Fischer to back up Moore. Fischer is almost as good as Raymer, filling in perfectly when he went down two years ago. I'm hoping that we'll pick up a decent OG. And SB33, there's no stats for O-Lineman, and whoever triest to put numbers on them isn't a good judge of talent, so don't buy that crap.

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"Mamula was named to the all-decade Big East team and he did have 13 or 14 sacks with 70-something tackles in his final year at BC. He wasn't an unproductive player."<br /><br />Awards and all, Mamula was not a hot draft candidtate until he blew people away at the combine with his workout numbers. He was a lot like James Farrior.

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I'm participating as the Redskins GM in Rob Rang's mock readers draft over at Boomer's NFL Draft.<br /><br />Sure enough, when we picked at 18, all of the top four DT's were taken.<br /><br />As I saw it, my choice was between Kalimba Edwards and Tonui Fonoti. In the final analysis, I feared Kalimba being double-teamed off the field by 300 lb DT's and DG's so I chose Fonoti, the best guard in the draft. Still not sure that was the right choice. Kalimba is one hell of an athlete, leader, and solid citizen. It sort of flies in the face of conventional knowledge to pick an OG with a first but with our QB's I thought that picking Fonoti to give them a little more time in the passing game made sense. I also smiled a lot when I thought of Tonui (with his 145 pancakes this year) opening gaping holes for Stephen.<br /><br />I'm going to try for a DT or DE in the 2nd round and will post the entire draft once we finish tomorrow for any who may be interested.<br /><br />TONIU FONOTI MEASURABLES <br />Height: 6-3 Weight: 349 <br />40-yard dash: 5.50 10-yard dash: 1.90 <br />20-yard shuttle: 4.81 60-yard shuttle: <br />Broad jump: 7-10 225 lb. bench: 32 <br />3-cone drill: 8.12 Vertical jump: 28 <br />Wonderlic: 33 20-yard dash: 3.12 <br /> <br /><br /> <br />War Room analysis<br />Run blocking: Is by far the best run-blocking offensive lineman we have seen all year. Is massive with great overall body strength. Is not mobile, but gets great positioning. Feet are quicker than measurables indicate. Plays with leverage and good leg drive. He simply engulfed and overpowered most defensive tackles in college. Grade: 8.8<br /><br />Pass blocking: Doesn't have great experience in this area because of Nebraska's option offense and his size and lack of speed are obvious concerns, but he is more than adequate in short areas. He comes out of his stance quickly and plays with good knee bend. Has explosive upper-body strength to get separation. Grade: 8.0<br /><br />Initial quickness: His short-area quickness is what helps him make up for his lack of speed, as he gets out of his stance faster than you would think for a lineman of his size. His first step almost always gives him an angle. Grade: 8.2 <br /><br />Strength: He is an absolute mauler who stays low and uses his tremendous combination of size and strength to uproot defensive linemen and drive them off the ball. In the open field, he can be a devastating blocker when he reaches his blocks and had more pancake blocks than any other college player we have ever evaluated. Grade: 8.8<br /><br />Mobility: Compared to some of the more mobile linemen in this class, he doesn't move very well and has a difficult time changing directions. However, he did a better than average job of reaching linebackers and pulling to the outside in college and he is a ferocious downfield blocker when he reaches his blocks. Grade: 7.2<br /><br />Bottom line: Fonoti is a rare impact interior lineman. He is by far the most impressive interior lineman we saw on film this season. Fonoti still has work to do in terms of open-field blocking and picking up stunts and blitzes in pass protection, but he should be the first interior lineman drafted and it could be as high as the first round.<br /><br />Dan Pompei analysis<br />Is a dominating interior player who obliterates and smothers smaller defenders. Is powerful, tough and ornery. Finishes blocks. Is a physical specimen. Probably needs some refinement in pass blocking; didn't get much work on it at Nebraska. Is a little bit of a short stepper, but can trap and pull. <br />Pompei OG ranking: No. 1.<br /> <br /> <small>[ March 23, 2002, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: B&G ]</small>

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Here is the first round from Boomer's Draft:<br /><br />Texans - CARR<br />Panthers - PEPPERS<br />Lions - JAMMER<br />Bills - HARRINGTON<br />Chargers - LELIE<br />Cowboys - R.WILLIAMS<br />Vikings - HENDERSON<br />Chiefs - STALLWORTH<br />Jaguars - MCKINNIE<br />Bengals - BUCHANON<br />Colts - SIMS<br />Cardinals - W.BRYANT<br />Saints - HARRIS<br />Titans - HAYNESWORTH<br />Giants - M.WILLIAMS<br />Browns - DUCKETT<br />Falcons - J.WALKER<br />Redskins - FONOTI<br />Broncos - THOMAS<br />Seahawks - GRANT<br />Raiders - REED<br />Jets- FREEMAN<br />Raiders - GREEN<br />Ravens - SHEPPARD<br />Saints - JONES<br />Eagles - GAFFNEY<br />49ers - THOMPSON<br />Packers - EDWARDS<br />Bears - FREENEY<br />Steelers - GURODE<br />Rams - SHOCKEY<br />Patriots - D.JOHNSON

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Dirk, if run stoppers were so easy to find how come the Redskins have finished no better than #19 against the run in the past 6 years? <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /><br />the truth is finding a DT that is durable enough to play 16 games and do so at a high level is harder than you think.<br /><br />Teams with edge rushers like Michael McCrary and Peter Boulware are successful largely because they have the likes of Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa closing up the middle and forcing opponents into long conversion attempts on third down.<br /><br />Designated pass rushers are all but useless when teams are able to get 7-8-9 yards on the first and second down and have a short distance to go to keep drives alive.<br /><br />If we have the chance to draft a franchise DT in the first round like Henderson, the only way I would NOT make that pick is if the team saw a potential starting quarterback, left tackle or cover corner was available and we needed to fill that spot as well.<br /><br />As others have noted, you look around the NFL at speed rushers. Guys like McCrary, Keith McKenzie, Leonard Little, etc.......even back to our own Dexter Manley............these players were not high #1 picks............<br /><br />teams found them in the middle rounds and developed them over time.

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by the way, any word on Semple? I thought it was kind of strange that with no other visits lined up that his agent refused to stick around and complete a deal over the weekend.<br /><br />is there a chance he is shopping our deal to someone else?<br /><br />you would figure there aren't many teams in the NFL that have open spots at BOTH guard positions right now as the Redskins do.<br /><br />so his chances of becoming a starter here are quite good.<br /><br />we also know the Lions don't really want him back what with all their money tied up in their high draft picks.

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I wouldn't mind drafting a player like Fonoti, just as long as we go with a need position. From his evaluation, it seems his inexperience in pass blocking doesn't offset his natural physical abilities. All he really needs is to refine his techinque and he could be an awesome guard for us. I doubt he would do much pulling, though.

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Well here is the 2nd round of Rob Rang's Draft.<br />I tell you, it is brutal picking at 18 and 50 and depressing not having a 3rd round pick in a 3 round draft. Surely tomorrow we will have some good news about compensatory picks...I sure hope we pick up a 3 for Brad.<br /><br />I was happy to end up with Alex Brown at pick #50. Here was my prioritized list before the round began:<br /><br />1) Dwight Freeney<br />2) Alex Brown<br />3) Anthony Weaver<br />4) Saleem Rasheed<br />5) Jon McGraw<br />6) Robert Thomas<br />7) Andra Davis<br /><br />I would be very happy with Brown and Fonoti in the first two rounds if somehow we could work a deal with Sam Adams or another good run stopping DT.<br /><br />2nd Round<br /><br />33 Houston Texans: Andre Davis WR<br /><br />34 Carolina Panthers: DeShaun Foster RB<br /><br />35 Detroit Lions: Josh Reed WR<br /><br />36 Buffalo Bills: Anthony Weaver DL<br /><br />37 Kansas City Chiefs: Larry Tripplet DT<br /><br />38 Cincinnati Bengals: Mike Pearson OT<br /><br />39 Dallas Cowboys: Jeremy Stevens TE<br /><br />40 San Diego Chargers: Terrance Metcalf OG<br /><br />41 Jacksonville Jaguars: Reche Caldwell WR<br /><br />42 Minnesota Vikings Dwight Feeney DE<br /><br />43 Indianapolis Colts Saleem Rasheed LB<br /><br />44 Arizona Cardinals Michael Lewis SS<br /><br />45 New Orleans Saints Antonio Bryant WR<br /><br />46 Cleveland Browns Marc Columbo OT<br /><br />47 New York Giants LaVar Fisher OLB<br /><br />48 Tennessee Titans Seth McKinney C/OG<br /><br />49 San Diego Chargers#a Kendall Simmons OG<br /><br />50 Washington Redskins Alex Brown DE<br /><br />51 Houston Texans Daniel Graham TE<br /><br />52 Denver Broncos Kevin Curtis FS<br /><br />53 Seattle Seahawks Chris Baker TE<br /><br />54 Oakland Raiders *b Dorsett Davis DT<br /><br />55 New York Jets Keyou Craver CB<br /><br />56 Oakland Raiders Tim Carter WR<br /><br />57 Baltimore Ravens Reggie Coleman OT<br /><br />58 Philadelphia Eagles#c Clinton Portis RB<br /><br />59 Philadelphia Eagles Andra Davis MLB<br /><br />60 San Francisco 49ers Justin Bannan<br /><br />61 Green Bay Packers Marquis Walker WR<br /><br />62 Chicago Bears Patrick Ramsey QB<br /><br />63 Pittsburgh Steelers Derrick Ross CB<br /><br />64 St. Louis Rams Langston Walker OT<br /><br />65 New England Patriots Trev Faulk LB

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