Question about Thanksgiving

[headexplode]

zoony,

I wasn't trying to imply that american indians were pure beings ruined by the brutality of the evil white man. (I'd like to think that you know I'm smarter and more educated than that). The tribes were, for sure, so different from one another there is no way to classify them in one lump sum. Some were extremely warlike, other tribes were less so, but certainly violence was a way of life, then. (Whether they would have invaded Europe had they had the technology is pure conjecture).

My intention was to honor and respect our ties to the past, much in the way I think of our forefathers and the sacrifices of revolutionary soldiers (including many blacks and american indians) on the 4th of July, on the sacrifices of the labor movement on labor day, or the sacrifices and suffering of blacks on MLK, jr. day. Also, to the point of Burgold's post, I was trying to indicate how thanksgiving can mean different things to different people.

I acknowledge that all humans are flawed. But I think it's important, and reverent, to remember the rise and fall of civilizations and cultures that came before us, and to understand that it's very likely that we too, some day, will probably go the way of the american indian.

(I have read some Ambrose, always very well-written and interesting. I'll have to check out Philbrook some time).

[rincewind]

And make absolutely no mistake whatsoever, the reason for this existed not because of will/want, but because of means. Again, had Native Americans had the means to wipe out European settlers, they would have done so without hesitation.

........

Not according to Montezuma.

[Burgold]

And make absolutely no mistake whatsoever, the reason for this existed not because of will/want, but because of means. Again, had Native Americans had the means to wipe out European settlers, they would have done so without hesitation.

........

While what you are saying is probably true. No way to really prove it. The holocaust of the Native American is a terrible scar on American History.

We definately have a mixed history, but I think we are constantly striving to improve. I think it is a good thing that many of us are revolted by some of the decisions and actions of our forebears.

[headexplode]

I thought it was common knowledge the pilgrims came from Holland? That's the story I learned in elementary school.

[rincewind]

I thought it was common knowledge the pilgrims came from Holland? That's the story I learned in elementary school.

Yeah, nobody liked those pompus bible thumpers, with their shoe buckles on their hats.

[headexplode]

Yeah, nobody liked those pompus bible thumpers, with their shoe buckles on their hats.

The greatest irony is that those that were seeking religious tolerance became one of the most religiously intolerant groups in history.

(And the wheel spins round and round).

[Burgold]

Well, I for one didn't know or remember that or at least didn't know that Holland was a haven of religious tolerance.

[stoshuaj]

"Again, had Native Americans had the means to wipe out European settlers, they would have done so without hesitation."

sure, b/c they would have done so in the attempt to protect their home.

[PleaseBlitz]

Ive never viewed Thanksgiving as a religious holiday. Giving thanks for what you have does not have to have religious undertones, though im sure many devout religious people dont seperate the 2. Im mostly happy to have 2 days off, a big fat meal, see some extended fam, and watch some midweek football.

I have one aunt that insists on saying grace before dinner. And her "grace" is literally 5-10 minutes long. While eveyone has a plate full of food in front of them. She goes into praying for politicians and the weather and everything you can imagine, its so irritating.

[headexplode]

Rub a dub dub--thanks for the grub.

That's the best blessing there is.

[zoony]

Not according to Montezuma.

Do you mean Atahuallpa, the Incan King?

The King who had amassed an army 100,000 strong in an effort to kill the 168 Spanish Conquistadors who had landed?

Of course, we all know the story now and how it unfolded from there.

Also, it should be noted, that European disease killed 95% of the South American native population.

I think we would be much better served to have a practical view of World History, rather than a biased/guilty one. Another great book that I've recommended at least 5 times before on this site. And look who made the cover... the Incan King

[zoony]

Well, I for one didn't know or remember that or at least didn't know that Holland was a haven of religious tolerance.

Holland has been a land of tolerance throughout much of European history. From Anne Frank to all of the (cough) alternative lifestyle (cough) artists whou have sought out Holland as a refuge over the years, while most of the rest of Europe was burning people at the stake.

[rincewind]

Do you mean Atahuallpa, the Incan King?

The King who had amassed an army 100,000 strong in an effort to kill the 168 Spanish Conquistadors who had landed?

Of course, we all know the story now and how it unfolded from there.

Also, it should be noted, that European disease killed 95% of the South American native population.

I think we would be much better served to have a practical view of World History, rather than a biased/guilty one. Another great book that I've recommended at least 5 times before on this site. And look who made the cover... the Incan King

Sorry, spelled it wrong. Its Moctezuma. He looked at Cortes as a God. Cortes than wiped him out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moctezuma_II

[PleaseBlitz]

I read Guns Germs and Steel. And everything else Jared Diamond has written.

[zoony]

I thought it was common knowledge the pilgrims came from Holland? That's the story I learned in elementary school.

I didn't pay attention much in elementary school. It was news to me at least :laugh:

[Dan T.]

I'm reading Guns, Germs, and Steel right now.

Also, I highly recommend both of the other books Zoony mentioned - "Mayflower" for the unvarnished story of Thanksgiving and the early interaction between the Pilgrims and Native Americans, and Ambrose's "Undaunted Courage" which will give you a real appreciation of the extraordinary feat that was the Lewis and Clark Expedition. Ambrose equates the Expedition to the Moon Landing in terms of its audacity, danger, and difficulty.

[zoony]

Ambrose's "Undaunted Courage" which will give you a real appreciation of the extraordinary feat that was the Lewis and Clark Expedition. Ambrose equates the Expedition to the Moon Landing in terms of its audacity, danger, and difficulty.

Can you imagine the kind of physical shape those guys were in? They rowed upstream all day long 12 hours / day and ate a diet that consisted almost entirely of lean meat like venison.

Seriously, those guys probably looked like WWE 'roid freaks.

And Dan... Guns Germs & Steel will change your outlook on just about everything. My favorite book of all time.

[Zguy28]

The greatest irony is that those that were seeking religious tolerance became one of the most religiously intolerant groups in history.

(And the wheel spins round and round).

Actually, the "original" pilgrims were not Puritans in the traditional sense, since they were fleeing the Church of England, not trying to reform it. Puritans wanted to reform the Church of England and arrived shortly thereafter and started taking land and converting the Indians.

The original Mayflower colonists, from what I have heard, had a very good relationship with the Wampanoag Nation.

[headexplode]

Actually, the "original" pilgrims were not Puritans in the traditional sense, since they were fleeing the Church of England, not trying to reform it. Puritans wanted to reform the Church of England and arrived shortly thereafter and started taking land and converting the Indians.

The original Mayflower colonists, from what I have heard, had a very good relationship with the Wampanoag Nation.

I was speaking more about the Puritans of Salem fame. I just assumed those who first landed were of the "Puritan" tradition, as well. Thanks for clarifying (two times in one day, too;) .)