What percentage of partisans want a secession?

[twa]

You mean that little thing called "states rights"? Didn't we already fight a war over that?

Yeah, but the states rights got lost somewhere along the way even before the war....bwth ,a broken system is still better than most.

[aREDSKIN]

I am a "liberal" and yes I would be happy if the wingnuts had their own country, and we had ours.

You do realize you are a "wingnut" right? Try Cuba. Given your perspective that might be a good fit for you.

[PokerPacker]

The problem with the red-blue stuff is: what about the libertarians? Those who want gov't out of the bedroom AND boardroom, who dislike Pat Robertson AND Al Sharpton.

we pool our money and buy a country of our own.

[Baculus]

Just also pointing out that there is a simple, Constitutional, peaceful, way to permit the nation to split into red and blue.

It's called United States.

Just imagine. If the Feds didn't insist on claiming jurisdiction over things like marriage licenses, school curricula, and medical marijuana, then we could live in a place where the red states had red laws, and the blue states had blue laws, and people had the right to "vote with their feet" and to pick the laws they wanted.

Yeah, I'm a Trekkie, too, so I live in a fantasy, utopian world.

Your post, in a way, and this discussion, makes me think of something I was reading earlier:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/uscivilflag.html

And part of the issue, which is related to what you mentioned, is that the incorporated government of the District of Columbia - the nation's Federal government - has now encroached its rule from beyond its borders in D.C., to every single state, in jurisdictions which are originally beyond its constitutionally authorized powers.

I wouldn't want a split of this Union, but I do believe we have to recognize the not-so-positive changes that have occurred in this nation and what needs to be done to fix it, in part by "taking it back."

From the same page of which I posted earlier in this post:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/constit1.html

[thedoc4454]

I think Larry has hit the nail on the head. The More the Federal goverment insists on growing thier power and deminishing the rights of states the divide in the country will grow. The South wants to be more conservative and the Northeast wants more socialism. Those states should have the right to pick thier own direction.

[Prosperity]

I want California to seceed so I can move there and smoke pot

I am only half joking... seriously there is no point to secession unless a large unified segment of the country becomes parasitic. I don't think that has happened quiet yet.

[headexplode]

I don't think many partisans want a secession, per se, but they certainly want to see the country go more in the direction of their party. Even most reasonable partisans (in as much as they can be reasonable), though, can recognize that monopolistic government is dangerous, and that in a country of 300 million, there is going to have to be some degree of compromise and unification. That even if we get it wrong, it's never too late to correct our mistakes. That this country is an ongoing experiment with its fair share of successes and failures, and that it's within the power of the people to right the ship when the waves send it crashing over.

[Midnight Judges]

In 2003 I might have said yes to succession, but now I'm pretty happy that the liberal point of view is going to dominate American politics for the next few years.

[JosephGibbs]

Sounds good, but how would the blue states fund their socialism when all of the working tax payers left for the "Red Nation"? I think they would find a way to tax people of the Red Nation...hmmm taxing people who are not citizens of your country, BRILLIANT!

[Midnight Judges]

Sounds good, but how would the blue states fund their socialism when all of the working tax payers left for the "Red Nation"? I think they would find a way to tax people of the Red Nation...hmmm taxing people who are not citizens of your country, BRILLIANT!

I love it when Republicans make this argument. As if all spending/taxes are due to liberals and the Iraq war is free. BTW, how much did your Republican congress cut spending from 2002-2006?

[Switchgear]

I suppose it's inevitable that this thread will occasionally be hijacked by partisan hacks. Good job, Midnight and Joseph.

[JosephGibbs]

I love it when Republicans make this argument. As if all spending/taxes are due to liberals and the Iraq war is free. BTW, how much did your Republican congress cut spending from 2002-2006?

My humorous point was that when it comes to most of the socially funded programs, Democrats seem to be the first to come to their defense and willing to support them. You can not deny that talking points of the Democratic party over especially the last 20 years includes more socially supported programs funded by the government through taxpayer money.

[JosephGibbs]

I do not know how much the Republican congress cut spending from 2002-2006.

I recognize and support the Clinton administration for passing a balanced budget and remaining fairly fiscally conservative throughout the administration.

Republican or Democrat, we should always be looking for a way to lower taxes on everyone and reduce Federal spending; if the Republicans did not do this (as I think your insinuating) then that is a fault.

[Burgold]

The Republicans not only did not cut spending, but they increased it enormously.

[jbooma]

The Republicans not only did not cut spending, but they increased it enormously.

Yes for the war, take away the war then they cut it back You forget they put in the tax cut because of all the money were paying in the 90's

Kind of hard to compare a congress during war and one that is not, that is like trying to compare the offenses of NE and Washington, it does not equate

[Burgold]

Not entirely true, Jbooma. Although, a lionshare of the increases were war related, some of the stuff they called war related was a bit... er... suspect. The Repubs of the early 2000's were not in the least averse to pork. It's part of why Abrahmhoff and Delay got in so much trouble.

There were some very real issues which did warrant unexpected spending including 9/11, Iraq, and Katrina, but there were also many, greedy hands that got very handsomely greased.

[jbooma]

Not entirely true, Jbooma. Although, a lionshare of the increases were war related, some of the stuff they called war related was a bit... er... suspect. The Repubs of the early 2000's were not in the least averse to pork. It's part of why Abrahmhoff and Delay got in so much trouble.

There were some very real issues which did warrant unexpected spending including 9/11, Iraq, and Katrina, but there were also many, greedy hands that got very handsomely greased.

Everyone on the hill (repub, dem, indep etc...) is involved in pork in some fashion or another even the great Ron Paul. Look that is how it works. They have to please those who vote them in and they get these little pork projects some or insane but some are justified.

That is never going to change. If you want to make a difference get into politics start at the local level and work your way up. Once you understand more of all that is going on you will see why this happens.

It is easy to sit here and scream on one specific thing, but if you do not know all the facts then aren't you becoming what you are fighting against?

[Burgold]

Boy are you in a defeatest mood today, booma. Everything sucks, there's no hope to change any of it, and that's just the way things are.

You argued that minus the (Iraq and Afghan) war spending Repubs cut spending. I simply pointed out that that was untrue.

[Midnight Judges]

I suppose it's inevitable that this thread will occasionally be hijacked by partisan hacks. Good job, Midnight and Joseph.

You really raised the level of discourse with this post. Seriously though, I can't think of a more appropriate place for partisanship than a thread about partisans.

BTW, I'm not a hack, but I'll proudly admit to leaning Democrat.

[Midnight Judges]

You argued that minus the (Iraq and Afghan) war spending Repubs cut spending. I simply pointed out that that was untrue.

would be interesting to see some hard numbers on that...

[jbooma]

Boy are you in a defeatest mood today, booma. Everything sucks, there's no hope to change any of it, and that's just the way things are.

You argued that minus the (Iraq and Afghan) war spending Repubs cut spending. I simply pointed out that that was untrue.

Where did I say it sucks, all I am saying is that is the way it is thats it. Did you take in any type of inflation in your calculations or just straight numbers?

[Sarge]

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. - The Declaration of Independence

We'll probably have to reset the government at some point. Too many greedy pigs, too much money and too much special interests influence

[Burgold]

Honestly, just going off memory.

As for the "defeatest" thing. Maybe I'm reading your tone wrong. But I'm hearing, yeah, we're in second place that's just reality. Nothing you can do about it. Yeah, Congress went pork crazy, that's just reality. Nothing you can do about it. Yeah, literacy rates are dropping, that's just reality. Nothing you can do about it.

Sounds like a pretty bleak outlook, but I may be reading between the lines too much. Hope I am. I do think there are a lot of things that can be done to move us in an upward directions, economically, industrially, and educationally. I don't think we are doomed to decline.

[jbooma]

I don't think we are doomed to decline.

Oh I don't either but when you do become second place you then try to learn what the others did to overtake you. Now the dollar is a different breed then many because of how much is out there. I still feel the reason why the Euro is so high is because it is stil relatively new in talking of currency. Let see 10 years from now where it stands.

Remember Europe is not working harder or smarter then the US