The Official Barry Bonds Home Run Record Poll

[jrockster21]

What I said previously - why is it when Cal hits 30+ at SS he's 'revolutionizing' the position, but when A-Rod hits 50 it's because he's roiding? Why isn't he just viewed as further revolutionizing the position? The guy hits home runs, it's what he does.

I guess because 30 home runs was not an outrageous total. 50 home runs is getting into elite territory, know what I mean? That and ARod has been named specifically as a steroid user (albeit by a douchebag), and was hitting large in the "peak" of steroid use, is definitely enough to cast some suspicion his way. 30 home runs, while being a lot for a short stop, was not an outrageous number. I mean, 34 is pretty mundane.

[rincewind]

I guess because 30 home runs was not an outrageous total. 50 home runs is getting into elite territory, know what I mean? That and ARod has been named specifically as a steroid user (albeit by a douchebag), and was hitting large in the "peak" of steroid use, is definitely enough to cast some suspicion his way. 30 home runs, while being a lot for a short stop, was not an outrageous number. I mean, 34 is pretty mundane.

Of course he's hitting them in elite territory, he's an elite player - maybe the best ever, and he was thought to be one of the best prospects ever so it's not like he snuck up on anyone. Say he as connections, fine. But the 'no SS can hit 50' argument is bull****.

As for Cal - 34 isn't a lot for a power hitting 1st basemen, but was unheard of for a shortstop.

[jrockster21]

As for Cal - 34 isn't a lot for a power hitting 1st basemen, but was unheard of for a shortstop.

The point is that 34 isn't and wasn't an outrageous number of home runs to hit. For a short stop, yes, but that's why he revolutionized the position. He started putting up numbers that normally a power-hitting 1B would put up, know what I mean?

[rincewind]

The point is that 34 isn't and wasn't an outrageous number of home runs to hit. For a short stop, yes, but that's why he revolutionized the position. He started putting up numbers that normally a power-hitting 1B would put up, know what I mean?

Yes, and that's exactly my point. Why shouldn't A-Rod be seen as further revolutionizing the position. Obviously after 34, the next step would be 40+, and then 50+.

eers seems to be dismissing out of hand the chance of a shortstop ever hitting 50... which doesn't make sense because nobody had ever seen a shortstop the likes of A-Rod before.

[jrockster21]

Yes, and that's exactly my point. Why shouldn't A-Rod be seen as further revolutionizing the position. Obviously after 34, the next step would be 40+, and then 50+.

He did revolutionize the position...he just did it using steroids.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Oh come on, that's being a little disingenuous, isn't it? Clemens may have put on some fat, but he also put on a lot of muscle. He generally got thicker, not fatter.

Hahaha, I dunno man, I think he got fatter.

And c'mon, its not like Clemens is still throwing as hard as he was when he was 25. He's topping out at like 91, 92...

I don't like Clemens but I don't think he 'roided up. I think A-Rod might have but I doubt it...like I said before, he put on his muscle in his 20's when its easier to do so in a natural way.

[megared]

Just suggesting the overwhelming evidence of Barry's guilt.

Overwhelming evidence would've meant an indictment years ago...If they had anything, they wouldn't be trying to break Anderson in prison.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Overwhelming evidence would've meant an indictment years ago...If they had anything, they wouldn't be trying to break Anderson in prison.

Wait, you think Andersons the only thing they have? Are you that naive?

[megared]

Wait, you think Andersons the only thing they have? Are you that naive?

How many times have they extended the grand jury sessions? The FEDs had spent $13 million by '05...why's there still no indictment?

If they don't need Anderson to testify, then why is he sitting in jail until he does?

[rincewind]

Ya know, Al Capone was never indicted on anything but tax evasion. EVERYBODY knows (and knew back then) he was into a lot more **** than that. Are you going to say he wasn't a gangster?

[megared]

Ya know, Al Capone was never indicted on anything but tax evasion. EVERYBODY knows (and knew back then) he was into a lot more **** than that. Are you going to say he wasn't a gangster?

Is there a more extreme comparison you could draw? I see what you're saying, but then again...you're comparing someone that was the head of a crime organization to a baseball player.

[rincewind]

Is there a more extreme comparison you could draw? I see what you're saying, but then again...you're comparing someone that was the head of a crime organization to a baseball player.

Alleged head of a crime organization...

[81artmonk]

I have sort of a new take on this issuse that I think many can relate to.

First, I think it's cheating. So what if everyone is doing it, it's cheating. I don't think he should get into the HOF, I think the record should have an * by it.

I have heard alot say, look at how many football players who we didn't know took Roids and are in the HOF. Well, to that I say, we didn't know. Ignorance is bliss.

This is how I explain the problem. Did Bonds or is bonds going to break the record. yup. Roids or not he will do it. It's like playing a video game. you start doing pretty well than hit a rough spot where you just get stuck and frustrated. So you go online and get a cheat code(Roids) and than you are able to beat the game. Did you accually beat the game yourself, sure, but you have to cheat in order to do it. That's how I see Bonds breaking the record. Yeah he hit the home runs himself, but he had to cheat to do it, and one never knows wether he would have done it without them.

[megared]

Alleged head of a crime organization...

also allegedly

-bootlegged liquor, and ran numerous speakeasies

-killed people

-hired people to kill enemies

-ran prostitution rings

-practiced legal intrusion

-masterminded the Valentine's Day Massacre

compared to allegedly taking steroids.

Really is there a comparison?

[rincewind]

also allegedly

-bootlegged liquor, and ran numerous speakeasies

-killed people

-hired people to kill enemies

-ran prostitution rings

-practiced legal intrusion

-masterminded the Valentine's Day Massacre

compared to allegedly taking steroids.

Really is there a comparison?

The comparison is in that you are saying that since there is no indictment of Bonds on a minor offense, he is obviously innocent. I'm pointing out a guy who was believed to commit major felonies and yet was never indicted. Lack of indictment does not equal guilty.

Remember, I've been defending Bonds this whole thread - but to say he didn't take steriods (especially when you're main reasoning is a lack of indictment) isn't a very strong argument.

ps - he wasn't also alleged of the things you listed. Those things are what make you a crime boss.

[StillUnknown]

I have sort of a new take on this issuse that I think many can relate to.

First, I think it's cheating. So what if everyone is doing it, it's cheating. I don't think he should get into the HOF, I think the record should have an * by it.

I have heard alot say, look at how many football players who we didn't know took Roids and are in the HOF. Well, to that I say, we didn't know. Ignorance is bliss.

This is how I explain the problem. Did Bonds or is bonds going to break the record. yup. Roids or not he will do it. It's like playing a video game. you start doing pretty well than hit a rough spot where you just get stuck and frustrated. So you go online and get a cheat code(Roids) and than you are able to beat the game. Did you accually beat the game yourself, sure, but you have to cheat in order to do it. That's how I see Bonds breaking the record. Yeah he hit the home runs himself, but he had to cheat to do it, and one never knows wether he would have done it without them.

as i've said before, the HOF is littered with people who cheated.

[jrockster21]

Ya know, Al Capone was never indicted on anything but tax evasion. EVERYBODY knows (and knew back then) he was into a lot more **** than that. Are you going to say he wasn't a gangster?

He wasn't a gangster based on the evidence the Feds could come up with.

[rincewind]

He wasn't a gangster based on the evidence the Feds could come up with.

Kind of my point. Thanks.

[Bang]

I have sort of a new take on this issuse that I think many can relate to.

First, I think it's cheating. So what if everyone is doing it, it's cheating.

Totally agree. I can't figure out how somehow two wrongs make a right these days.

I don't think he should get into the HOF, I think the record should have an * by it.

Lost me here. Even before he started his growth spurt and coincidentally home run spurt he was still a hall of fame ballplayer. To me that's the worst part of his (alleged) cheating, he really didn't need to. I know lots do, and a guy trying to keep his job might do it to keep up with the other guy, but Barry wasn't one of those guys, and never has been. He never had to enhance anything to be an annual all-star and an eventual hall of famer.

As far as the * goes, nah... if you do that then the Barry Bonds supporters have a legitmate beef to go back and make them inspect every single record there ever was for any discrepancies at all. What a joke that would be.

They used to laugh and tell me that two of the Redskins Super Bowls would have an * beside them, and here we are 25 and 20 yrs beyond them, and there's no asterisk in the official record books.

I'm resigned.

Go A-Rod.

~Bang

[SkinsFanAnt]

Totally agree. I can't figure out how somehow two wrongs make a right these days.

Lost me here. Even before he started his growth spurt and coincidentally home run spurt he was still a hall of fame ballplayer. To me that's the worst part of his (alleged) cheating, he really didn't need to. I know lots do, and a guy trying to keep his job might do it to keep up with the other guy, but Barry wasn't one of those guys, and never has been. He never had to enhance anything to be an annual all-star and an eventual hall of famer.

~Bang

Im with Bang on this...except for the "(alleged)" part. Barry Bonds cheated, he admitted it, and all the 'growth spurt' signs point to it (especially the shoe size...gaining muscle is one thing, gaining bone mass in your feet at the age of 30+ means you're taking some horse steriods ****...simple logic really).

However, if taking all that crap was officially allowed in baseball, which its not, then everyone would be cheering Bonds on and we wouldn't have this thread.

Also, Barry WAS one of those guys...he apparently was jealous of fellow cheater Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa's dings and therefore, decided to get the Clean and Clear and the other **** so he could pump up and hit billions of home runs too. Sorry, but its not coincidence that Maris's record was broken, what, a total of 3 or 4 times in the span of 3 years? That's bull**** and so is Bond's record.

I say, why not just seperate the records? You have the "whitey" era (for Babe Ruth fans), the "legitmate American Baseball" (for Maris and Aaron's records) and the horse 'roids era (for Sosa, Bonds, McGuire). See!...that way EVERYONE IS HAPPY! :applause:

Anyways, screw baseball....the real "American pastime" season is about to start.

[megared]

The comparison is in that you are saying that since there is no indictment of Bonds on a minor offense, he is obviously innocent. I'm pointing out a guy who was believed to commit major felonies and yet was never indicted. Lack of indictment does not equal guilty.

Remember, I've been defending Bonds this whole thread - but to say he didn't take steriods (especially when you're main reasoning is a lack of indictment) isn't a very strong argument.

ps - he wasn't also alleged of the things you listed. Those things are what make you a crime boss.

No, to be guilty from a legal standpoint...there has to be evidence linking you to what you're accused of. Are you really comparing the level of surveillance BB has on him to what Al Capone had? Capone was able to manipulate (w/ law enforcement's blessing) the justice system for years to benefit himself. That would've never flown in today's world. More than likely during his time he had eyewitnesses, victims caught in the crossfire, as well as affected community members. That would've been a walk in the park for the FEDs of today.

I didn't say 'I believe' he didn't take steroids based upon the lack of evidence. What I did say is that however you contrive it in your mind that he did shouldn't be the end all of the conversation...b/c even the FEDs, with millions at their disposal can't figure out a link. What happens if he wasn't lying on the stand?

[rincewind]

No, to be guilty from a legal standpoint...there has to be evidence linking you to what you're accused of. Are you really comparing the level of surveillance BB has on him to what Al Capone had? Capone was able to manipulate (w/ law enforcement's blessing) the justice system for years to benefit himself. That would've never flown in today's world. More than likely during his time he had eyewitnesses, victims caught in the crossfire, as well as affected community members. That would've been a walk in the park for the FEDs of today.

I didn't say 'I believe' he didn't take steroids based upon the lack of evidence. What I did say is that however you contrive it in your mind that he did shouldn't be the end all of the conversation...b/c even the FEDs, with millions at their disposal can't figure out a link. What happens if he wasn't lying on the stand?

:gus:

Fine, he's innocent. Since he's never been charged he obviously didn't do it.

[jbooma]

only on extreme can you go from Barry Bonds to Capone :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[rincewind]

only on extreme can you go from Barry Bonds to Capone :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

If I had realized that we were going into the ins and outs of the crime commit and not understand that I was simply saying 'lack of indictment does not equate to innocence' I would have never opened my mouth. I thought it was a pretty simple comparison... now I know better.

[The Evil Genius]

But a lack of indictment, after 2-3 years of investigations does lend a legitimacy to the notion that its not a black and white issue. It means that there must be a lot of unsubstantiated information.

I really doubt there are few people who think Bonds didn't use "something". What cannot be accurately shown, it appears, is if Bonds knowingly used illegal substances.