Ken Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070801/pl_nm/usa_spying_dc An example of "Broader" that they admitted a few days ago: FBI Proposes Building Network of U.S. Informants http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/07/fbi-proposes-bu.html Another Exclusive: FBI Data Mining Program Raises Eyebrows in Congress http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/06/exclusive_fbi_d.html Another: FBI Would Skirt the Law With Proposed Phone Record Program, Experts Say http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/07/fbi-would-skirt.html and, yet another: FBI to Boost 'Black Bag' Search Ops http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/06/as_part_of_its_.html At least no one here can say they didn't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baculus Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I really do believe that the AG Gonzales issue and the firing of US attorneys is partially related to this issue, among other issues. It is just the skeletons in the closet of this and previous administrations that are lurking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Excellent. Hopefully some bad guys will be caught Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 A whole two replies. I guess no one cares about their freedom on this board... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Honestly, (I may get bashed for this) I think the Dems have way overplayed their game of "Get Bush at any cost", in that the cry wolf syndrome may be kicking in. I think there has been so darned much of it that we are getting immune to any form of passion that would otherwise be there when a controversy arises. Personally, I am not really worried about President Bush abusing executive power too much. I am worried about the stage set for abuse from the future office holders much, much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 Honestly, (I may get bashed for this) I think the Dems have way overplayed their game of "Get Bush at any cost", in that the cry wolf syndrome may be kicking in.I think there has been so darned much of it that we are getting immune to any form of passion that would otherwise be there when a controversy arises. Personally, I am not really worried about President Bush abusing executive power too much. I am worried about the stage set for abuse from the future office holders much, much more. I agree with you. This isn't about Bush. It is about the complicit nature of what ALL OF THEM are allowing to happen. No one is trying to stop this. That is truly scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 A whole two replies.I guess no one cares about their freedom on this board... You're so damn interested in freedom, yet no one has the freedom to not reply to your post without you feeling it necessary to condescendingly insult everyone. No one is free unless they agree with you. If they don't swallow every hook in your pond then you sit back and exclaim how blind everyone is, and how you're theo nly one who is smart enough, or cares enough. No one cares unless they bark at the moon with you. No one cares because you think they don't have anything to say. Maybe just no one cares to discuss it with you. Your holier than thou attitude is quite tiresome, Ken. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 It is incredible that Gonzales is still AG. Incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 There was a Thread about this a month ago, nobody seemed to care either. I posted some stuff about cell phones and computers, was told I was wrong, proved it and then the thread died. I was even told by one member and then PMed and told to drop it. It's not that nobody cares, it's just okay I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 You're so damn interested in freedom, yet no one has the freedom to not reply to your post without you feeling it necessary to condescendingly insult everyone.No one is free unless they agree with you. If they don't swallow every hook in your pond then you sit back and exclaim how blind everyone is, and how you're theo nly one who is smart enough, or cares enough. No one cares unless they bark at the moon with you. No one cares because you think they don't have anything to say. Maybe just no one cares to discuss it with you. Your holier than thou attitude is quite tiresome, Ken. ~Bang Bang, I apologize if you think I'm being condescending, I really don't mean to be. Maybe to people who really don't give a crap, yeah, I'm condescending. I just expect people to say something, one way or another. This is really amazingly brazen facist behavior. Really, no one cares? I really get frustrated that it seems people don't care about the erosion of all that made this country great. Sorry If I offended you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 There was a Thread about this a month ago, nobody seemed to care either. I posted some stuff about cell phones and computers, was told I was wrong, proved it and then the thread died. I was even told by one member and then PMed and told to drop it. It's not that nobody cares, it's just okay I guess. That is truly sad then. It is one thing not to know something is going on. It is entirely another to know it, then say that you don't care. I'm going to jump into the Word Association thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjcdaman Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 It is entirely another to know it, then say that you don't care. Put me in that boat. I have nothing to hide. If they want to listen to my calls talking about ****es, sports, and work . . . I hope they enjoy it. Hopefully, criminals will be caught, and hopefully terrorists who are already in this country are caught. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 What about those that know and support it ? The hysteria on the spying now vs the winking at abuses in domestic areas under the previous administration is comical to some of us. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissU28 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Put me in that boat. I have nothing to hide. If they want to listen to my calls talking about ****es, sports, and work . . . I hope they enjoy it. Hopefully, criminals will be caught, and hopefully terrorists who are already in this country are caught. :2cents: I agree. I really don't mind extra security in order to make our country safer. You can say that these measures violate our freedom, and yes, they do...but terrorists violate our freedom even more. I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of my privacy for the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I agree. I really don't mind extra security in order to make our country safer. You can say that these measures violate our freedom, and yes, they do...but terrorists violate our freedom even more. I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of my privacy for the cause. Then, according to Ben Franklin, you deserve neither liberty nor security Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjcdaman Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Then, according to Ben Franklin, you deserve neither liberty nor security Things change. I wonder what his views would be if he lived through a time when 3,000 of our citizens were killed by terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Things change. I wonder what his views would be if he lived through a time when 3,000 of our citizens were killed by terrorists. I think he would question our policies in the ME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Bang,I apologize if you think I'm being condescending, I really don't mean to be. Maybe to people who really don't give a crap, yeah, I'm condescending. I just expect people to say something, one way or another. This is really amazingly brazen facist behavior. Really, no one cares? I really get frustrated that it seems people don't care about the erosion of all that made this country great. Sorry If I offended you. No problem. I'm just being too touchy. Sorry about that. It's a damned frightening world, eh? ~J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Then, according to Ben Franklin, you deserve neither liberty nor security I would get a different take from studying Franklin's actions rather than "your" interpretation of essential liberties. Context is essential. added Try reading Spying for America for perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 A whole two replies.I guess no one cares about their freedom on this board... I do care about my freedom, but, my freedom does not extend to helping people who would kill Americans by talking to them on public phone lines. My freedom extends to my willingness to live without use of public airwaves or public regulated companies. If I chose to extend outside my hut, I understand my name and personal information is available, and, it's not a loss of freedom. I am no great fan of the government, by any stretch of the imagination, but, if you have a problem with the government being able to correlate the calls made by various phone companies with lines they have reason to watch for whatever reason, then back tracing who was talking there, you don't actually know what freedom is. Americans were promised liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These were promised right after LIFE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 I agree. I really don't mind extra security in order to make our country safer. You can say that these measures violate our freedom, and yes, they do...but terrorists violate our freedom even more. I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of my privacy for the cause. 1 terrorist incident in 100 + years on our soil, does not warrant a complete change in how this country was founded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 I do care about my freedom, but, my freedom does not extend to helping people who would kill Americans by talking to them on public phone lines. My freedom extends to my willingness to live without use of public airwaves or public regulated companies. If I chose to extend outside my hut, I understand my name and personal information is available, and, it's not a loss of freedom.I am no great fan of the government, by any stretch of the imagination, but, if you have a problem with the government being able to correlate the calls made by various phone companies with lines they have reason to watch for whatever reason, then back tracing who was talking there, you don't actually know what freedom is. Americans were promised liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These were promised right after LIFE. I agree that these things should be used against criminals. The problem is they are being used against Patriots. The more patriotic you are, or if you are an Activists, they violate your rights. There are numerous documented cases of this. I just fear that this type of structure will be used for the wrong reasons, kinda like they have been doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurrayH81 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I think that the real issue here is that the Government is trying to circumvent or violate existing laws to do what they want to do. I don't know what they want to do (other than what they say publicly, which you either believe or you don't). However, the manner that they are going about it, when there were actions that could have been taken, involving congress, and made legal by a Republican dominated Congress during the first 6 years of his Presidency. Why was this not done? It's not that I have anything to hide, it is that the government clearly does, and the only real reason for doing so is that the violations of law they are engaged in just would not stand up for any form of public review, and therefore may be completely unrelated to counter-terrorism activities. Checks and balances, respect and obedience to the Constitution and other Laws of the land, and the Truth. I think I would rather take my chances with those as the guiding principles than a secret government dominated society of evesdropping and continous review of the actions of all citizens. We can all figure out better ways to do what needs to be done, must we sit idle while the government screws everything up again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Checks and balances, respect and obedience to the Constitution and other Laws of the land, and the Truth. I think I would rather take my chances with those as the guiding principles than a secret government dominated society of evesdropping and continous review of the actions of all citizens. This is the biggest point to me. Checks and balances were one of the most important ideas our founders came up with. No one in their right mind would say we need to stop all investigations or that spying (including on Americans) can't yeild life saving results. The question is, why do they need to go outside existing law to do so? And if the need is so pressing, why can't they change the law to allow for what they feel needs doing? Each critical moment forces us to adjust that balance between freedom and security. Do I lose freedom by having me and my luggage searched at the airport. Yes. Do I mind, no? Do I lose freedom if you get to go through all my things, collect my records, record my personal calls and copy my emails. Yes. Could that be the right thing to do? It might be, but I think you ought to be able to prove some reasonable suspiscion. I may be too hung up on the warrantless wiretapping aspect, but what really bothers me about that is that they could have obtained the warrants after the fact. If the need was too pressing to hesitate and go through the court system which approved 97% of all requests anyway, then you were allowed to go and spy, but make your case afterwards. Why wouldn't that be reasonable? Why couldn't they follow that standard? Don't be too quick to discard your freedom. Others will be all too happy to take it from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Don't be too quick to discard your freedom. Others will be all too happy to take it from you. Great quote Burgold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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