Gibbs II..Edited, Player Pro and added Why it will succeed.

[Stuckinphilly1]

This offseason is going to tough around here, undoubtedly...the season hasn't even come to a complete end and there's another thread that seems to be calling my name already.

So, let's really take a good hard look at Gibbs II. I'll explain what my opinion is, some "what if's," and ask for some valuable POSITIVE feedback. If you want to trash the man, please go somewhere else, PLEASE!!!!

Okay, let's start by taking a look at the team that he took over and what he was getting himself into.....

PATRICK RAMSEY. I firmly believe that Gibbs was sold on the idea that he had a franchise QB in making when he got here, it's obvious that he didn't. IF, PR was the talent that we all believe Jason to be, does anyone really think Brunell would even still be here, or had played the role he did last season???? I don't. If Ramsey had the talent and ability that Campbell has I think this team is on a whole different level right now. It's obvious that Ramsey is not a starter in this league, Joe found that out once he got here and AFTER he bought a "savy vet" to he his BACK-UP. I really do believe that was Joe's intention from day one, sure I could be wrong but doubt that I am.

Year One

He trades a player that doesn't want to be here, CB for one of the Premier Running Backs in the League, Clinton Portis-who in his 2nd year with the team breaks the franchise record for rushing yards in a season, as well as James Thrash. In Free Agency he picks up: Joe Salave'a, Mike Sellers (previous Skin, now regarded as "Redskin Football"), Shawn Springs, Marcus Washington, and Phillip Daniels.

He drafts Sean Taylor who will likely be one of the best players at his position of all time in the first round. Chris Cooley who has emerged as one of the top ten Tight Ends in the league in only his third year, if not top 5-7.

Year Two

He trades for Santana Moss who in his first year with the team, almost single handedly delivered one of my generations "Most Memorable Victories" against Dallas and, while having a RB who breaks the same record at his position, goes on to break the franchise record for most receiving yards in a season. In Free agency he picks up: Pierson Prioleau, David Patten, and Casey Rabach.

He drafts Carlos Rogers in the first round, jury is still out but likely a CB who will be able to be left alone on an island with the Premier WR's in the league. He also drafts, all of our hopes and prayers, our next franchise QB in Jason Campbell. His next pick isn't until the 4th round and not even worth talking about.

Year Three

In Free Agency he picks up A. Randel El, Brandon Lloyd, Andre Carter, Adam Archuletta, Jeff Posey, Kenny Wright, and Troy Vincent mid-season. With little draft picks to use, he improved the team via Free Agency as best he could, IMO. He drafts Rocky McIntosh, and Reed Doughty. Makes a trade for T.J. Duckett- likely a costly kneejerk reaction to his #1 RB getting hurt in the Pre-season. And he signs an extension to keep Ladell Betts on the team after an impressive display in CP's absense.

He decides that after a disgraceful offensive outing against Tampa Bay in a Playoff Victory the previous year that the team would be best suited by having one of the best offensive co-ordinators in the league, Al Saunders. This turns out to be a much bigger change than he, the team, the coaches and mainly the fans thought it would be, results in a losing season, absense from the playoffs and HUGE fan dissatisfaction.

Year Four....

God be with you Joe, please prove the haters wrong, the critics morons but more importantly, those of us that love you, cherish and trust you correct!!!

Some players are not retained by the team; Arrington, Peirce, Trotter, Robert Royal and Kenny Wright.

Now.... I'm sure I missed some signings, some trades, and people let go. But take a good hard look at the above and tell me why Joe is such a horrible GM...is there better sure but I see plenty of names in the above info that have been the reason for this teams success last year and will be in the future.

I'm also looking for an article in the WP that talks directly about the hiring of Al Saunders and will edit when I find.

The Time is Yours......

[Stuckinphilly1]

Edit to this post, if you already read it and were offended I apologize.

Here's the WP article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/01/AR2007010101001.html

[Res_Novae]

Nice post, read it all, agree with almost all of it.

HTTR HOMIE!

[riggoraider]

Lets let Gibbs II play out and I think that we will all be impressed with the outcome. We did not have a good season and Gibbs was the first to admit that he made some bad decisions last off season rather than trying to make excuses or point the blame at someone else. He had a lot of key injuries this season but did not try to use THAT as an excuse either.This is a guy who knows how to man up and I am sure that he is going to correct anything that needs correcting.

[Seabee1973]

If Gibbs thought he had a franchise QB he would not have gone out and spent money on brunell there is no way Ramsey was doomed the minute Gibbs got here

[stp240]

read it all...i would like to see Joe and Al work together non stop this offseason and talk while deciding on a play in game...That way Joe will be able to put in his input on the type of play he wants...run...pass...whatever and Al can determine what the defense is giving up in the passing game.

There is no excuse for our defense this year...

Al's ideas with Joe's winning ways of consuming the clock, wearing down the D is deadly, players just need to buy into it.

[Monkart]

Well I guess I made the post too long for you guys, sux that I actually put a bit of work in finding out where a lot of the guys on the team came from. I'm surprised by who's come to the team since Gibbs II started.

Anyway, here's an article from the Post. Great read but maybe a little too long for you guys I guess???

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/01/AR2007010101001.html

Wow!! First of all I support JG, and the post was not that long at all. Maybe the few people that are on at 1:30 am just felt that you post wasn't worth responding to. I for one lost any respect for your opinion with this paragragh...

"PATRICK RAMSEY. I firmly believe that Gibbs was sold on the idea that he had a franchise QB in making when he got here, it's obvious that he didn't. IF, PR was the talent that we all believe Jason to be, does anyone really think Brunell would even still be here, or had played the role he did last season???? I don't. If Ramsey had the talent and ability that Campbell has I think this team is on a whole different level right now. It's obvious that Ramsey is not a starter in this league, Joe found that out once he got here and AFTER he bought a "savy vet" to he his BACK-UP. I really do believe that was Joe's intention from day one, sure I could be wrong but doubt that I am"

Gibbs was SOLD on the idea that Ramsey was a franchise QB :doh: , but gave Brunell a 7 year (pretty sure 7) $40 million contract (8 million up front) to be his BACK-UP?????? :doh: :doh: Sure you could be wrong and YES YOU ARE!!!!

If Ramsey had the talent and ability that Campbell has I think this team is on a whole different level right now. :obvious:

The rest of your post is redundant facts, inaccuracy's and opinions we've heard over and over again, so please don't try to insult us by insinuating we can't read a long post or article because your post isn't too long to read, it's too boring to read. I only went back to read it after you posted this, just to give you the benifit of doubt that maybe it got better, It did NOT!!! sure I could be wrong...............NOOOO!!! I'm NOT!!! :2cents:

[scruffylookin]

You're wrong on the whole Ramsey/Brunell thing.

Brunell was brought in to start. Gibbs paid lip service to an "open competition" in training camp, but it was Brunell's job to lose. Both QBs were very average in the preseason, if Gibbs were inclined to go with Ramsey like you suggest, Ramsey would have been the starter on opening day against Tampa in 04. Brunell didn't win the job.

I agree with you on the Bailey/Portis trade. To me (maybe I'm in the vast minority on this) a frachise runner is more valuable and has more of an impact on a game than a corner. But I sure wish we didn't have to throw in that 2nd rounder.

As a GM, he's brought in some talent. But the bottom line is that he has yet to build a consistent winner. 6-10 10-6 5-11 tells me that he's done a poor job so far. Both as GM and as coach and that manifests itself in one TJ Duckett. Gibbs the GM panics after CP gets hurt and goes out and trades two picks to get TJ Duckett despite his position coach telling him that we have somebody on the roster capable of doing the job. Then Gibbs the coach doesn't use TJ after he gave up so much for a one year rental.

Now after 3 years, we have a defense that has fallen apart. We have an aging (though not yet old) offensive line. We're "starting over" with a young QB who will still have growing pains in 07 and we're still looking for a legit 2nd receiver.

I don't know, I don't think the resume for Gibbs 2 looks to good right now.

[kwitt]

First of all, posting this in the dead of night and then coming back an hour later complaining that no one has responded is hilarious.

The post itself was pretty shallow IMO, did not provide much insight at all. I felt like I was reading a Redskins encyclopedia.

If you are trying to defend Joe Gibbs, the GM, then you have lost what little credibility you had. Sure, he has brought in some good players but that is not what has killed this team. It is the overpaying of free agents and the draft pick give-a-ways.

Did you see Ed Reed last night? Our safety, Adam Archuletta makes more money than him or any other safety in history. :doh:

[50yrSKINSfan]

I love JG as much as anyone but the whole PR thing drives me crazy. I believe JG never had confidence in PR from the beginning that is why he brought in MB which as it turns out was valid as PR had a fair chance to win a job in N.Y. and failed. There is a rummor JG was offered 2 ultra high draft choices for PR and turned them down and then finally let him go for nothing.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Somehow half of my post was deleated so I will add that failure to trade PR for 2 high draft choices is what drives me crazy. As far as Saunders goes well JG had to do something as his offence was poor and most people felt he had good personel.

[BIGGS_DADDY]

Decent read on the off-season happenings over the last couple of years, but I did not see where you stated "why it will suceed."

[50yrSKINSfan]

Living in the N.Y. area the view of all the sports talk hosts is when it comes to the draft "the Redskins are on a planet all by themselves." and when it comes to picking winners and loosers most say the Redskins "stink."

[PCS]

Well I guess I made the post too long for you guys, sux that I actually put a bit of work in finding out where a lot of the guys on the team came from. I'm surprised by who's come to the team since Gibbs II started.

Anyway, here's an article from the Post. Great read but maybe a little too long for you guys I guess???

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/01/AR2007010101001.html

Just to touch on something already mentioned. You can't really expect a bunch of posts at the time that you started this. Actually, you can't really expect alot of posts period. Hope? Sure. No problem. Expect? Don't do it. You're going to have to grow some thicker skin around here where things like this are concerned. Alot of us have had what we thought were great ideas for threads and found out the hard way that a majority of the members disagreed. It doesn't necessarily mean it was a bad idea or a bad topic of discussion, just one that alot of members didn't want to talk about. That may not be the case here mind you. Now I admit, attention spans can be a little short around here at times, but that isn't necessarily the reason many threads don't take off like we want them to. So I'd be real careful about condeming people for that reason when looking for reasons why things didn't take off. Besides, it's the offseason and it'll probably linger a bit longer on the front page and someone will find it. Patience.

Oh. And I would add in the misses just as a good comparison in the initial post. Just my 2cents.

[HapHaszard]

Somehow half of my post was deleated so I will add that failure to trade PR for 2 high draft choices is what drives me crazy

I thought I was up on the rumor mill, but thats the first time I have heard this rumor. Who was the team that offered 2 hight draft choices? At this point in time I can't for the life of me think of a team that would make that offer, but my memeory is dim.

[Skinsinparadise]

Like yourself I am a Gibbs fan but he has clearly made some mistakes.

Good points: he has made some good draft picks in the upper rounds -- the lower round picks have been so so at best. He took us to the playoffs in the 2nd season in what was a very enjoyable season restoring some pride at the time to the franchise. His game philosophy works which came into the fore at the tail end of the season of running the football, eating the clock, and playing physical. He's superb at keeping the team together and avoiding locker room implosions as opposed to lets say Coughlin and the Giants.

In terms of coaching you can put the blame on the season more on Gregg Williams than Joe -- its the defensive failures that did us in though I think Williams didn't have enough to work with and that brings some obvious criticisms: Gibbs and Williams for that matter have never been GM's even though they are playing ones right now. They have made some grave mistakes in evaluating talent and handcuffing the team's future by overpaying players that haven't panned out while giving out draft picks like free candy to the rest of the league. I like most of what he has done as a coach my 2 biggest gripes are stubbornly sticking with Mark Brunell for too long. Terrible use of the game clock at the end of the halfs and squandering time outs.

I am a huge Gibbs fan and I believe he cares big time about the team and works his butt off for the team. My biggest hope is that Gibbs like most successful people will learn from his mistakes and as a coach I believe he will take it up a peg next year. My one fear is as team president and part of the GM by committee squad -- he gets some of the mistakes IMO he's made but some are still lost on him. Keep in mind, Gibbs' magic in the 80s wasn't being a personnel guy, that wasn't his job (if you recall he said Desmond Howard is a can't miss star before trading up to draft him) Gibbs' magic was being an excellent coach.

What I think Gibbs gets now based on recent statements are:

Keep core Redskins players -- Cerrato and others have admitted that they blew it by letting Pierce go. They anxiously resigned Ladell Betts.

Pre-Season -- take it seriously, the Skins looked unprepared when the season started and Gibbs admitted that it was a mistake.

I put this under "maybe" -- overpaying players with huge contracts. I haven't seen him defend the Archuletta contract for example -- I think he likely sees the mistakes in this department.

Consistent identity -- The Redskins offense was all over the place at the start of the season and Gibbs took care of that.

What I don't think he gets yet IMO

Hire professional personnel people -- Good GM's study players full time, they look after the big picture and the future, provide checks and balances, etc. Gibbs doesn't want a GM. He seems to think on the aggregate they are making good personnel decisions -- he gets very defensive when he gets put on the spot in this department. The funny thing is he's cool when he gets ripped about his coaching but not the personnel stuff. He more or less says that the personnel moves have been fine, its the coaching that's the probnlem and that's on him. I feel its the oppsoite -- good coach, bad GM.

Trading away draft picks -- he's defended that tactic at the end of the season, often calling the draft a crap shoot.

[Tastes Like Chicken]

The Redskins have given away approximately a dozen or so draft picks in the last 3 years. We simply do not value what those picks represent- inexpensive, young, hungry players. Some will be busts, some superstars, but much of what you gets in the draft results in depth. We go out and buy free agents as starters but, behind them, we are paper thin in some key areas.

We are paying the mortgage with a credit card, and spending our cash on a BMW with no insurance.

[Mania]

early in the 2005 season I had heard that the Jets or Miami had offered a high draft pick for Ramsey.

[chaser]

Yeah i remember the Dolphins offering a first round pick for Ramsey, and Ramsey and his agent talking to Gibbs about the trade. Gibbs then took care of that by saying "Ramsey has a bright future with the Redskins".

[TMK9973]

Dolphins offered a top pick for Ramsey, and Joe Veto'd it. Yes. But the reason being because he had no back up. As much as he loved Burnell, even Gibbs new that he could go down at any point, and he wanted to make sure the season would not be lost if he did (Last season Giants game? Giant's comming back, pull within 3, Burnell down, Ramsey comes in and throws a TD pass to Moss).

During the offseason he knows that he is not being fair to ramsey, that if Burnell strugles he could loose the team by not playing Ramsey so he lets ramsey goes and signs Todd Collings.

Look - Year 1, and year 2 went just as Gibbs planned. He panicked after the offense performance in the playoffs, brought in Al,bought into the hype of Greg W, and had a bad year.

Next year - They will be back to playoffs, maybe we get lucky, catch a few breaks, and have a year that takes us all the way, probably not and we go into the playoffs and get knocked out somewhere there.

Then, final year of Gibbs 2 SB.

Oh - And don't be surprised when end of next year they announce that Gibbs has signed a one year extension. It won't mean anything other then a way to keep all the asst on the staff with out looking for a new job.

[skinpride1]

NICE POST.....only thing I don't like in gibbsII is how we let some guys walk away on our defense.If we don't get another DE,CB,safety I will cry!!!

[kwitt]

We are paying the mortgage with a credit card, and spending our cash on a BMW with no insurance.

:laugh: :doh:

[TD Riggo]

First of all, posting this in the dead of night and then coming back an hour later complaining that no one has responded is hilarious.

The post itself was pretty shallow IMO, did not provide much insight at all. I felt like I was reading a Redskins encyclopedia.

If you are trying to defend Joe Gibbs, the GM, then you have lost what little credibility you had. Sure, he has brought in some good players but that is not what has killed this team. It is the overpaying of free agents and the draft pick give-a-ways.

Did you see Ed Reed last night? Our safety, Adam Archuletta makes more money than him or any other safety in history. :doh:

You DO realize that Dan Snyder and his best racquetball buddy are making a lot of the personnel decisions, don't you? You can't just lay it all at the feet of Gibbs. He has the TITLE of team President, but when you have an owner and his facilitator who play fantasy football with a real football team, you aren't always the one in charge!

The difference between Gibbs I and Gibbs II is Bobby Beathard. I think Joe has often made good decisions in this second go around, but it is also apparent that having a "Beathard" would help. Unfortunately, there's no one in football today who has the personnel mind of Bobby Beathard.

Still, with Gibbs, you get one of the greatest coaching minds in the history of the NFL! I think we'll be fine. Now, as much as I dislike Gregg Williams (mainly for his arrogant personality and the way he has handled some of his present and former players), I think he will be able to get this defense back to what is was in year one and two. Had we had that defensive performance this year, we would have definitely been in the playoffs. The ONLY thing I disagreed with this year was that Joe waited TOO long to start Jason, and we SHOULD have used TJ more often, especially with what we gave up to get him!

[Guest HowAboutThemSkins]

this thread does a far better job of detailing the moves...

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174315&highlight=jump+band

[Stuckinphilly1]

If Gibbs thought he had a franchise QB he would not have gone out and spent money on brunell there is no way Ramsey was doomed the minute Gibbs got here

I guess that I should've worded this a little better, he think he wat told PR was GOING TO BE a the franchise QB but wan't ready and bought it Bruell for the beginning and teaching PR....my real point is that IF JC was chosen instead of Ramsey years ago then Gibb II would look a lot different right now.