Grave Injustice - Mangini Robbed of COY Honors

[Flowtrain]

In awarding Payton COY, it appears that the voters were hell bent on going with the feel good story out of New Orleans than conducting a fair assessment of what actually took place on the field. Did Payton deserve this award over Mangini? Let's take a closer look.

Very little was expected of either the Jets or the Saints coming off of terrible 2005 seasons. But the real deciding factor for this award should lie in what was accomplished with the existing talent that was inherited by these coaches AND the new talent that was infused prior to 2006.

In the Jets case, they lost 4-time Pro Bowler Ty Law, 6-time Pro Bowler Mawae, 3-time Pro Bowler Abraham, 5-time Pro Bowler and future HOFer Curtis Martin, and Fabini, just to name a few. Rookies littered the starting 2006 lineup at key positions such LT, C, RB, and CB.

With changes like that, what can really be expected of a rookie HC taking over a 4-12 team? 2-14?

Meanwhile, the Saints upgraded the most important position on the field with a Pro Bowl QB and MVP candidate in Brees, the consensus #1 overall pick in Reggie Bush, Hollis Thomas, Simoneau, etc. Importantly, the roster also rolled over talented Pro Bowlers Deuce McAllister, Joe Horn (part time), Jammal Brown, Will Smith. To be clear, the knock against the Saints has NEVER been talent.

The Jets and Saints both finished at 10-6. Strength of schedule? Under the Sagarin System which adjusts the quality of your opponents wins, the Jets ranked #11 vs. #29 for the Saints. Wow. I'll give Payton the fact that his team was the more dominant one on Sunday with the NFL's best O, could've been 11-5 because it rested its starters, and did win the NFL's second worst division. But again, it all boils down to what you did given the tools on your roster.

The simple fact is that the moderate disparity in the Saints' 10-win season vs. the Jets is far outweighed by the differential in talent that Mangini had to work with relative to Payton. Of course, that's not a warm and fuzzy national story that sells papers. But it's an accurate reflection of what took place.

Payton Wins COY:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2722296

[Teller]

Grave injustice? Come on.

[Kurd Cudins]

Well, at least we know you're not biased. I don't know why they don't wait to vote on this stuff until after the entire season. IMO, which ever one goes farther in the playoffs should win the honor. With the bye, for now Payton would have the advantage maybe that's why he won. Plus, the Saints are better than the Jets.

[Flowtrain]

Grave injustice? Come on.

The 44-3 landslide vote tally was grave. The delivery of the award to a less deserving coach was the injustice.

[OWUeagleMD]

I thought beforehand that either guy was deserving. You make a good case for Mangini though.

[Flowtrain]

Plus, the Saints are better than the Jets.

Huh? Given this logic, doesn't the award go to Schottenheimer in a run away?

[Teller]

The 44-3 landslide vote tally was grave. The delivery of the award to a less deserving coach was the injustice.

Maybe, but the logic in your argument is flawed.

First of all, you insinuate that the Jets losing a handful of key players should have led to the demise of an already sub-par team. Take a look at what Bill Cowher did in Pittsburgh damn near every year. Nobody in NFL history lost as many key players year after year as Cowher, yet he still kept the Steelers in the hunt every season.

Then you point out that the Saints upgraded at key positions. And while that's true, if it were that simple to win, the Redskins would have been unstoppable this year. Afterall, Randle El and Lloyd are better than Thrash, Carter is better than Wynn, etc, etc.

It takes far more than talent on paper to win in this league, as we as Redskin fans know all too well. It takes cohesiveness and the ability to use each player's strengths while "hiding" his weaknesses. Payton did just that.

I think either man, Mangini or Payton, could have deservedly won the award. But calling this a "grave injustice" is a grave injustice in and of itself.

[Bostic Hog]

The 44-3 landslide vote tally was grave. The delivery of the award to a less deserving coach was the injustice.

Less deserving? My opinion is that either would be equally deserving. To say that the tally was "grave" is a bit overboard. If Bill Cowher had won it this year, that would have been a "grave" mistake.

HTTR

[Flowtrain]

Maybe, but the logic in your argument is flawed.

First of all, you insinuate that the Jets losing a handful of key players should have led to the demise of an already sub-par team. Take a look at what Bill Cowher did in Pittsburgh damn near every year. Nobody in NFL history lost as many key players year after year as Cowher, yet he still kept the Steelers in the hunt every season.

Then you point out that the Saints upgraded at key positions. And while that's true, if it were that simple to win, the Redskins would have been unstoppable this year. Afterall, Randle El and Lloyd are better than Thrash, Carter is better than Wynn, etc, etc.

You're having trouble making sense.

It appears that your trying to argue that losing talent is no big deal because Cowher succeeded when he lost talent. And gaining talent is also no big deal because it didn't help the Redskins. That's just silly. Cowher is an excellent coach, and right now, Gibbs is not.

Everyone knows that your roster composition guarantees nothing. But all else being equal, you'd obviously prefer to have talent. And in that department, the Saints were much better off than the Jets.

However, even if you throw out the Saints final game, they're still 10-5 with a #29 ranked schedule vs. the Jets 10-6 with a #11 ranked schedule. Mangini nearly matched Payton despite facing a much stiffer task.

[kevin11]

Alright, People feel sorry for the New orleans people and look at what they can look forward too...That is probably why he won with that landslide. Also, The saints were 2-14 or 3-13 mainly because of no talent at positions, but the jets had a lot of injuries and their star QB got hurt in the beginning.

[bubba9497]

What the Saints went through last season to have the season they had this year..... there isn't a doubt who should have won.

[bubba9497]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/9912076

Sean Payton named AP Coach of the Year

NFL.com wire reports

(Jan. 7, 2007) -- Sean Payton might have had the toughest coaching job in football this season, making his selection as The Associated Press NFL Coach of the Year that much more impressive.

Payton, in his first year as a head coach, didn't just lead the New Orleans Saints to a 10-6 record, the NFC South championship and a first-round playoff bye. He helped revitalize a battered city's spirit.

With New Orleans ravaged by Hurricane Katrina in late August 2005, the Saints became nomads that year, winding up 3-13 under Jim Haslett. Payton, an assistant coach in Dallas, was hired to revive one of the NFL's historically unsuccessful franchises.

Payton and his team gave the city -- indeed, the entire Gulf Coast -- something it desperately needed: a reason to smile.

And hopes for the Saints' first Super Bowl appearance.

"It's just been the right mix of guys who believe in each other," said Payton, who ran away in the balloting by a nationwide panel of 50 sports writers and broadcasters who cover the NFL. "Players putting the team ahead of everything else. I think that's the biggest thing that we've been able to do to date. That's what's most important. That's what we were looking for in the offseason: character, toughness, those are things you win with."

Payton received 44 votes in a season when there were a half-dozen outstanding coaching performances. Eric Mangini of the New York Jets, another first-year head coach, got three votes, while San Diego's Marty Schottenheimer, the 2004 winner, received two. Jeff Fisher of Tennessee got one.

"I'm honored and somewhat humbled. This is a time in our league right now where there are probably seven or eight Hall of Fame coaches currently coaching in our league," Payton said after learning of the award. "I still have tags hanging out of my Reebok gear on the sidelines."

Payton became the third Saints coach to win the award, joining Haslett (2000) and Jim Mora (1987). Last year's winner was Chicago's Lovie Smith.

No coach ever was faced with rebuilding a roster while his community was recovering from such devastation. Football might seem trivial under such circumstances, but Payton and his players understood how uplifting their success could be to those struggling to put together their lives again.

"You have to trust your gut a lot and follow your heart," Payton said. "There certainly were going to be some challenges coming into this region at this time. But I think the city is very committed to this team and it's really an amazing fan base we have, not just in New Orleans, but in this whole Gulf South area. And I'm excited we can provide a little juice for these people during the course of the week, get them excited about football."

Payton began with a tough training camp of two-a-day practices in the heat of Jackson, Miss. Many players called it one of the most demanding camps.

"He wanted to put his foot on the ground and establish that this was a new beginning," veteran wide receiver Joe Horn said. "In our profession, football, you don't start a new beginning by coming in and making it easy. It has to be hard.

"Fortunately for us we won football games. It worked out well."

So well that the Saints had their best regular season since 2000 thanks to a potent offense and strong special teams and a defense that improved markedly over last season.

Give Payton credit for those units, too. He signed free-agent quarterback Drew Brees even though Breed was coming off delicate surgery on his throwing shoulder. Brees responded with a Pro Bowl season.

Payton lucked out when Reggie Bush was bypassed at the top of the draft by Houston, and he was a dynamic rookie as a runner, receiver and punt returner.

Even more dynamic was seventh-round pick Marques Colston, a receiver from Hofstra who had a questionable work ethic and concentration lapses in college. Under Payton's guidance, Colston became an elite rookie.

Payton wisely alternated running back Deuce McAllister, coming off a serious knee injury, with Bush, and McAllister finished with 1,057 yards rushing and 10 touchdowns.

"We have a great head coach in Sean Payton, and his system," " Brees said. "I think we all believe in it, and I think it suits us all very well. I think we take a lot of pride in it."

[Westbrook36]

Flow, Payton had to restore faith in an entire city. The team was practicing in parking lots last year. You are out of your mind, friend.

[thespaniard]

Flowtrain, NFL.com has the Saints with a SOS of .461 (29th) vs. the Jets who have a .469 (25th). Not much of a difference. On top of that, the Saints have a better strength of victory. http://www.nfl.com/standings/conference

Let's be honest here about some of your points. Losing Curtis Martin this season wasn't that big of a deal. He was a shell of his former self last year. And while the Saints had the #2 overall pick to select Reggie Bush, the Jets had 2 firsts, with which they took the best tackle and the best center in the draft.

As far as all of the trades and free agency acquisitions, that is part of coaching. Coaches have to be able to wine and dine players, give them a good sales pitch and get them to sign a contract. Payton was an integral part of bringing Brees et al. into town. Now you tell me who had the advantage in Free Agency, the guy trying to bring free agents to ghost of a city to play for a miserable team with no tradition of winning, or the guy trying to bring free agents to a team with good tradition, in the biggest city in the U.S., with tons of marketing opportunities?

Payton also had the balls to trade away Donte' Stallworth, the only real talent at WR besides the aging Joe Horn, for an average at best LB in Mark Simoneau. He was willing to part ways with Stallworth because he had faith in a 7th round pick named Marques Colston to step up. Again, that takes balls, and is just plain good coaching instincts. He also cut a Super Bowl MVP safety in Dwight Smith so he could start another rookie. BRASS balls.

The Saints lost:

LeCharles Bentley

Darren Howard

Donte' Stallworth

Aaron Brooks

Wayne Gandy

...to name a few. If they had SO MUCH talent, then how come Payton cut or traded half of the roster (28 IIRC)?

Rookies littered our starting lineup as well, at RB, RG, WR, and SS. Payton replaced almost all of the offensive line. The only holdover was Jamaal Brown, who he moved to a position (LT) that he had never played before.

[Warhead36]

Payton didn't just help rebuild a team. He helped restore an entire city.

Mangini would have won it any other year.

[Flowtrain]

Flow, Payton had to restore faith in an entire city. The team was practicing in parking lots last year. You are out of your mind, friend.

I was unaware that the award is now given for achievement in community service. The brunt of the Saints distractions were bestowed upon Haslett -- he's the coach who really suffered. Payton? While New Orleans residents were still homeless, he got a $185M renovated stadium and facilities, the backing of the city, state, and nation, a huge boost in fan support (home and away), a massive party thrown by the NFL "Return to the Superdome" capped with a 23-3 win over Atlanta completed in the games first 8 minutes off raw emotion.

As much as I sympathize with the city, let's be careful when we play the sympathy card as it relates to the 2006 Saints and their shiny new digs. It's an award for coach of the year, not heart warming, feel good, newspaper-selling story of the year. Mangini did the better job given the talent on the field.

[sableholic]

If the voting had just been closer, I think I would have been fine with Payton winning. Justs seems that there wasn't a 44-3 difference between the two. Mangini did a amazing job with no RB and a crappy team. Like someone said, any other year and he would of won. Oh well. Payton is deserving as well, just saying I would have rathered it have been close.

[Westbrook36]

The award isn't an achievement of community service...it shows one coach had a much tougher road than the other.

Flow, one last thing. I've often thought of you as a man who deals in facts; that being said, why did you post untrue statements as facts regarding the SOS and then not reply when thespaniard corrected you?

[thespaniard]

While New Orleans residents were still homeless, he got a $185M renovated stadium and facilities, the backing of the city, state, and nation, a huge boost in fan support (home and away), a massive party thrown by the NFL "Return to the Superdome" capped with a 23-3 win over Atlanta completed in the games first 8 minutes off raw emotion.

He also got one of the lowest payrolls in the NFL. Last I checked, that $185M wasn't used on players. And he got an awful owner who has a hard on for moving the team.

BTW, we beat the crap out of the Falcons in Atlanta later on that year anyway. We would have won that game with or without the fanfare, Atlanta sucked this year.

[Flowtrain]

Flowtrain, NFL.com has the Saints with a SOS of .461 (29th) vs. the Jets who have a .469 (25th). Not much of a difference. On top of that, the Saints have a better strength of victory. http://www.nfl.com/standings/conference

Sure, if you want to buy into a flawed SOS system. If Team A is 7-9 and played the #1 hardest schedule. And Team B is 7-9 and played the #32 schedule -- who is a tougher opponent, Team A or B? Your flawed system says their equal. Mine says the Jets SOS is #11 and the Saints is #29.

Let's be honest here about some of your points. Losing Curtis Martin this season wasn't that big of a deal. He was a shell of his former self last year.

Honesty? You hone in on Martin and ignore the loss of Mawae, Law, Abraham, etc. Besides, wasn't the real issue relative talent? If you want to swap Leon Washington and Cedric Houston for Deuce McAllister and Reggie Bush, pull the trigger. If you're backing the Saints in this argument, I'd stay away from the RBs if I were you.

As far as all of the trades and free agency acquisitions, that is part of coaching. Coaches have to be able to wine and dine players, give them a good sales pitch and get them to sign a contract. Payton was an integral part of bringing Brees et al. into town. Now you tell me who had the advantage in Free Agency, the guy trying to bring free agents to ghost of a city to play for a miserable team with no tradition of winning, or the guy trying to bring free agents to a team with good tradition, in the biggest city in the U.S., with tons of marketing opportunities?

Payton also had the balls to trade away Donte' Stallworth, the only real talent at WR besides the aging Joe Horn, for an average at best LB in Mark Simoneau. He was willing to part ways with Stallworth because he had faith in a 7th round pick named Marques Colston to step up. Again, that takes balls, and is just plain good coaching instincts. He also cut a Super Bowl MVP safety in Dwight Smith so he could start another rookie. BRASS balls.

Coach of the Year. Not GM of the Year. Mangini vs. Payton. Not Tannenbaum vs. Loomis.

[Kurd Cudins]

Huh? Given this logic, doesn't the award go to Schottenheimer in a run away?

My logic isn't that it's the most important reason, it's more like a tiebreaker.

[SkinsGuy]

Congrats to Payton for a richly deserved honor.

[Flowtrain]

Flow, one last thing. I've often thought of you as a man who deals in facts; that being said, why did you post untrue statements as facts regarding the SOS and then not reply when thespaniard corrected you?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nfl06.htm

Peruse the link above and then tell me who posted an untrue statement.

[Westbrook36]

Sure, if you want to buy into a flawed SOS system. If Team A is 7-9 and played the #1 hardest schedule. And Team B is 7-9 and played the #32 schedule -- who is a tougher opponent, Team A or B? Your flawed system says their equal. Mine says the Jets SOS is #11 and the Saints is #29.

If by flawed SOS system you mean the SOS system that is accepted by the NFL for playoff tie breaking procedures and by every other NFL fan, then I agree with you.

Flow, my man, you are losing major credibility points by posting something as a fact and later calling it "your system". Who developed it? Someone from ganggreen.com?

BTW, off the top of my head, the Jets beat one team that finished with a winning record (Pats). Saints beat two (Eagles/Cowboys).

[thespaniard]

Sure, if you want to buy into a flawed SOS system. If Team A is 7-9 and played the #1 hardest schedule. And Team B is 7-9 and played the #32 schedule -- who is a tougher opponent, Team A or B? Your flawed system says their equal. Mine says the Jets SOS is #11 and the Saints is #29.

Considering my system is also the official system the NFL uses, I'm ok with it.

Have any excuses for the Saints having a better Strength of Victory?

Real Quick: How many wins do the Jets have vs. playoff teams?

Honesty? You hone in on Martin and ignore the loss of Mawae, Law, Abraham, etc. Besides, wasn't the real issue relative talent? If you want to swap Leon Washington and Cedric Houston for Deuce McAllister and Reggie Bush, pull the trigger. If you're backing the Saints in this argument, I'd stay away from the RBs if I were you.

Mawae and Fabini were replaced by 2 first round picks, and the #1 prospect at each position at that. What is there to mention?

Ty Law is still pretty good, but he's getting up there in years.

Coach of the Year. Not GM of the Year. Mangini vs. Payton. Not Tannenbaum vs. Loomis.

I'm just saying it's a factor. GM's don't make moves like that without the advice of the coaches. Especially new coaches. GM's take the coaches input and try to make it happen. You really think Loomis would have traded Stallworth without asking Payton about it?