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Americans To Be Tortured For Refusing To Show ID?


MonkeySkin

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All I'll say is the same thing I've said in every "police brutality" thread recently....

OBEY the cop, or assume responsibility for the consequences.

So far as I'm concerned, the kid got exactly what was coming to him.

Note to self: Become a cop, make some sort of excuse to arrest Mass, and (when he resists, talks back, or even questions the reasons for his arrest) taser him repeatedly. :)

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And there was an excuse for him not showing his ID?

Uh...maybe he didn't have it on him?

But he probably thought he was being "profiled" and decided to make a scene. Bad move.

If I were a student in a campus building, and the police asked to see my student ID, I would simply present it, and if I didn't have it on me, I would just say "Sorry, sir, I just realized I don't have my student ID on me. My name is XXXXX XXXXX, and I live in Building X Room X. May I please stay and finish my work?" Either the cop will say "okay", and I go about my business, or the cop says "No, you need to have your ID on you to use this facility", in which case I say something like "Okay, I'll have to go back to my dorm and get it. I'll be back in a bit." At that point, I've basically told the cop I am leaving quietly, and wish to comply with the rules. Any cop stupid enough to press the issue after that would find himself or herself in court as a defendant in a gigantic lawsuit.

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I think being in the campus library alone is a good enough reason to demand student ID. It's not a public library.

I have to agree on this point. If you are on a campus, using the advantages of the campus, the campus security people have every right to determine if you are an actual student or not, and the only way they have to do that is via a student ID check.

I think they could have removed him from the library without repeatedly tasering him after he was cuffed.

/hail:helmet:

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and finally, for all you Constitutionalists out there,

Supreme Court Upholds Constitutionality of Arrest for Refusal to Identify. In a 5-4 vote, the Supreme Court has narrowly upheld a Nevada law allowing law enforcement to arrest an individual when he refuses to identify himself, and reasonable suspicion--though not probable cause--exists that he has committed a crime. (June 21, 2004)

Now, we may or may not agree. But the Supreme Court has ruled that you must give the officer your name (or a name), and now they have ruled that you must give the officer your ID.

If you don't like those rulings, legislation by Congress is now required to reverse them. I think both requirements are silly, if you are just standing around minding your own business in a public place, or on your own property. However, if the authorities ask for your name and ID, and you don't comply, you should understand that the interpretation of the Constitution by the Supreme Court says you are now breaking the law.

/hail:helmet:

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and finally, for all you Constitutionalists out there,

Supreme Court Upholds Constitutionality of Arrest for Refusal to Identify. In a 5-4 vote, the Supreme Court has narrowly upheld a Nevada law allowing law enforcement to arrest an individual when he refuses to identify himself, and reasonable suspicion--though not probable cause--exists that he has committed a crime. (June 21, 2004)

Now, we may or may not agree. But the Supreme Court has ruled that you must give the officer your name (or a name), and now they have ruled that you must give the officer your ID.

If you don't like those rulings, legislation by Congress is now required to reverse them. I think both requirements are silly, if you are just standing around minding your own business in a public place, or on your own property. However, if the authorities ask for your name and ID, and you don't comply, you should understand that the interpretation of the Constitution by the Supreme Court says you are now breaking the law.

/hail:helmet:

Doesn't it say they have a right to arrest you if you don't identify yourself AND you are suspected of committing a crime? As this relates to this thread the lady in the car was told by the officer that she didn't do anything wrong. As far as the guy in the library is concerned you could make the arguement that he was suspected of trespassing since he couldn't prove that he was a student. However, that still doesn't give them the right to shock the guy with a taser 5 times. Especially since he wasn't fighting back and he was handcuffed during some of those shocks.

BTW, stun guns really hurt. If you haven't experienced it yet...don't. I shocked myself accidently just on the hand for a split second and that **** was no joke.

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I'm not defending this guy at all. School policy says no id after 11, leave the library. He should have done so when the cops asked. Nice police beat BTW -- working the library rounds.

This guy being an idiot who wanted to make a point aside, I'm still trying to figure out why the cops couldn't have just picked him up and carried him outside. Tasering him once -- maybe justifiable. But multiple times when he was laying down on the ground? If the guy isn't cooperating but isn't fighting you either, what's the procedure? Are you allowed to just pick him up? Seems reasonable to me.

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Doesn't it say they have a right to arrest you if you don't identify yourself AND you are suspected of committing a crime? As this relates to this thread the lady in the car was told by the officer that she didn't do anything wrong. As far as the guy in the library is concerned you could make the arguement that he was suspected of trespassing since he couldn't prove that he was a student. However, that still doesn't give them the right to shock the guy with a taser 5 times. Especially since he wasn't fighting back and he was handcuffed during some of those shocks.

BTW, stun guns really hurt. If you haven't experienced it yet...don't. I shocked myself accidently just on the hand for a split second and that **** was no joke.

'I wasn't defending multiple taserings. I was stating that you must comply with a law officer's request for name and ID."

Once a suspect is in handcuffs, unless they are somehow still dangerous (maybe on PCP or something else), multiple taserings would appear to be excessive and vindictive force, especially if the officers were not physically threatened or injured.

/hail:helmet:

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The cops are definitely at fault in this one.

Articles

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=local&id=4763689

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/10325914/detail.html

Video

http://mfile.akamai.com/12924/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2006/1115/10327884.200k.asx

Even the other students are telling the cops to quit to no avail.

Hate to say it, but let's face it. Most people become cops because... They couldn't find a better job. And they act like pricks because now they got a gun and a badge they can flash around.

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The cops are definitely at fault in this one.

Articles

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=local&id=4763689

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/10325914/detail.html

Video

http://mfile.akamai.com/12924/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2006/1115/10327884.200k.asx

Even the other students are telling the cops to quit to no avail.

Hate to say it, but let's face it. Most people become cops because... They couldn't find a better job. And they act like pricks because now they got a gun and a badge they can flash around.

Would you really say that to a NYPD who was there during 9/11

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I thought the right was for small government? How come all of you on the right are for the police being able to do any damn thing they want? That's not limited government. Checking peoples ID's everywhere they go isn't limited government. How can you on the right support that?

BASF83, How about because some of us on the Right understand that the security of the state is more important than our right to be totally anonymous.

I understand that when I walk around with a hat that has the "Sig Sauer" company logo plastered across it, I increase my chances of being confronted by a police officer wanting to know if I'm carrying a firearm. On the occassions that I have been asked, I respond appropriately, and provide the necessary identification paperwork if I do happen to be packing at that time.

Likewise, certain groups of people need to realize that in today's society they're likely to be targeted by law enforcement officers for closer scrutiny than others. It is in their best interest to simply comply with the requests of the officers, and THEN, afterwards, if they feel they were improperly singled out, to report the incident to the proper authorities. Not to try and defy the officer(s) on the spot at that time.

The only things that come from disobeying or harassing a police officer are bad. Nothing good ever comes from pissing a cop off. I would think that's pretty self-explanitory.

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Hey man, I am as pro-cop as most anyone, but that sh*t was f'd up. how can the dude get up after getting zapped so many times, just drag his ass out of library. Come to think of it, why didnt they just do that first? Too bad that guy wasnt wearing a Maurice Clarett flak vest, he'd have been okay!

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The cops are definitely at fault in this one.

Articles

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=local&id=4763689

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/10325914/detail.html

Video

http://mfile.akamai.com/12924/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2006/1115/10327884.200k.asx

Even the other students are telling the cops to quit to no avail.

Hate to say it, but let's face it. Most people become cops because... They couldn't find a better job. And they act like pricks because now they got a gun and a badge they can flash around.

yes, the cops are at fault. your slander of cops in general is just as wrong as the cops were who were tazing the crap out of that guy. think before you type! Nice generalizations- sure sign of deep thought on your part.

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yes, the cops are at fault. your slander of cops in general is just as wrong as the cops were who were tazing the crap out of that guy. think before you type! Nice generalizations- sure sign of deep thought on your part.

I assume that you're typing right now on your post where you say the same thing to the folks who claimed that the cops were justified because the suspect was Muslim? :)

(I'm jerking your chain. Actually, I assume you didn't criticise that particular Flash of Brilliance because you figured that it was so contemptable that it didn't deserve rebuttal.)

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I'm surprised nobody has brought up the point that he was directed 115 (+- 10) times to stand up. Yeah, I actually tried to count them. He was also warned, even before the first Tazing (not sure that's a word) what the consquences were if he didn't oblige. Alright, take a few minutes to say "Stand up" 115 times in a row to the person closest to you. In addition, prior to each Tazing, tell the victim at least 5 times he is going to get Tazed if he doesn't comply.

Round 1: Victim refuses to show ID. "Don't touch me, Don't touch me"

-Rd1: Campus cops +1. Multiple warnings prior to Tazing. 1st Taze, victim completely coherent and refusing to comply with campus police.

Round 2: Victim refuses to comply. "I have a medical degree. Here's you're Patriot ass. Here's your abuse of power. I'm not fighting you. I said I will leave."

-Rd2: Campus cops +1, he's leaving but at this stage not on his own has he had planned, immediately falls to floor. Strangely, when lifted to his knees he shows enough muscle control that the officers aren't supporting him. Once again, multiple warnings prior to tazing. 2nd Taze, kids starting to get the point but hopes that the person he paid to tape this is still taping.

Round 3: Victim completely coherent. "I want your badge numbers. I got Tazed for no reason. I was leaving this god forsaken place, you stopped me. You're abusing your power. Here's your justice.... F*** off"

-Rd3: Campus cops +1, possible riot and never tell a cop to F-off. Keep in mind 2 out of the 3 cops are now required to take this "willing" victim out of the library. The 3rd cop is facing at least 10 students trying to control the situation (formation of mob mentality). The mob recognizes the cops authority, why doesn't the student? Hmm, we may have an agenda here.

Round 4: Victim at entry of library. "Voices in the background suggest he doesn't want to leave." Odd since he proclaims he was supposedly leaving. This reasoning corresponds to the officers actions. At this point, without showing ID, the kid is no longer considered a student and is now a trespasser.

-Rd4: Campus cops +1, once again the kid is lifted to his knees and remains stable. He takes a couple steps forward as if he's complying then stops and slumps forward as if dead weight.

Round 5: Difficult to tell the rest of the rounds, but surprise surprise, the kid becomes docile and is removed by campus police after backup arrives. Once a sufficient crowd has arrived, we continue to hear screams yet we don't hear any Tazer. The characteristic *tick, tick, tick*. In a hallway like that, the sounds of a Tazer would echo. Now the focus moves to a confrontation between bystanders/accomplices. Maybe they are just good citizens, or maybe they are innocent bystanders.

From what I saw, it looked like the kid was trying to break school rules to prove a point. Much like the kid that smuggled a knife onto an airplane. I guess it's because he's Iranian-American, not the fact he was asked at a University to show his ID, then refused to leave, then told the officers to F-off, then said he would leave. There are ways to go about protesting authority and this is not one of them.

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This is sickening. Just no excuse, really.

The kids a moron for doing what he did, we can pretty much all agree on that. There was no need for the repeated tazing, however. Pick the kid up, drag him outside, it's not all that tough, guys.

By the logic some of you are showing ("Oh, he didn't do what they said, so he deserved it."), they've got the same right to taze people participating in sit ins, peaceful protests and the like. Arrest him, punish him BY LAW if he did something wrong, but they don't have the right to just inflict pain on him.

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After the 3rd Tazing the kid tells the cops to F-off. I think the kid got off easy. Have you ever tried to drag dead weight over what appears to be at least 30 yds? The kid had an agenda, plain and simple.

Apparently you missed my point. A person that fails to show ID in a University building, after the being told that it is University policy, even if he is a student must obey campus authority. Attending college is a privelege, not a right. You are accepted into the college and agree to abide by it's rules. Unfortunately we never saw the beginning of the encounter.

Alright, we have an individual in a campus computer room refusing to identify himself after being asked by campus security. At that point, he is no longer a student he's a trespasser. Now after being asked to leave with campus security, he tells them to F-off and goes on a tirade of how his rights were violated. The campus police have every right to control the suspect. Apparently you missed the 115 times they told him to get up and the 20 warnings that if he didn't comply he would get tazed again. That's not brutality, that's an ignorant suspect. Don't think he's a student because he refused to identify himself. Ask yourself how hard is it to show a student ID or to say I forgot my ID. From what was shown, he obviously didn't forget his ID.

This whole ordeal could have been prevented at the point of showing an ID. Yes, the same ID every student is issued when they are enrolled in a college. Do people ***** and moan about presenting an ID for food at the cafeteria? How about getting student discounts at the book store? Maybe they could whine about showing their ID for bus fair. The university is larger than one individual with an agenda.

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RLeVan, I wasn't responding to you in specific, but it's seems you've replied to my post, so here goes.

Have you ever tried to drag dead weight over what appears to be at least 30 yds?

Yes, I have, regularly in high school. Part of our wrestling work-out was throwing our partner over our shoulder and running the football field, that's 100yds if you're keeping track. It wasn't that hard alone, and it sure as hell wouldn't have been with two partners.

Apparently you missed my point. A person that fails to show ID in a University building, after the being told that it is University policy, even if he is a student must obey campus authority. Attending college is a privelege, not a right. You are accepted into the college and agree to abide by it's rules. Unfortunately we never saw the beginning of the encounter.

I didn't miss this "point" but I couldn't care less about it. He's in cuffs, he's sub-dued, there is NO reason to taze him for laying on the ground and spouting off his mouth. People spout off thier mouths all the time, it's a right we have in this country.

Alright, we have an individual in a campus computer room refusing to identify himself after being asked by campus security. At that point, he is no longer a student he's a trespasser. Now after being asked to leave with campus security, he tells them to F-off and goes on a tirade of how his rights were violated. The campus police have every right to control the suspect. Apparently you missed the 115 times they told him to get up and the 20 warnings that if he didn't comply he would get tazed again. That's not brutality, that's an ignorant suspect. Don't think he's a student because he refused to identify himself. Ask yourself how hard is it to show a student ID or to say I forgot my ID.

Again I'm assuming you're replying to my post, since it's the one right before yours, and the one before that is yours. I clearly say in my post, I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE THE KID IS A MORON, BUT THE OFFICERS MISHANDLED THE SITUATION.

And if he's tresspassing prosecute him for tresspassing, whats the criminal penalty for that? I'm pretty sure it isn't tazings. They have no right once he's in custody to "order" him to walk, if he wants to lay on the ground, they need to carry his sorry ass. He wasn't fighting, was just spouting off at the mouth. Was that a good idea on his part? NO! I'm NOT arguing that!

From what was shown, he obviously didn't forget his ID.

How is this conclusion drawn?? Furthermore, how is it relevent?

This whole ordeal could have been prevented at the point of showing an ID. Yes, the same ID every student is issued when they are enrolled in a college. Do people ***** and moan about presenting an ID for food at the cafeteria? How about getting student discounts at the book store? Maybe they could whine about showing their ID for bus fair. The university is larger than one individual with an agenda.

Get off this point! It dosen't matter what he did! If I roll a stop sign should I be shot?!

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MS, my reply was not meant as an attack against you. I apologize if you interpreted it that way. As far has your responses, a 30yd dead weight drag is much harder than a firemans (over the shoulder) carry. Especially with a defiant person. He wasn't subdued until after the 3rd time they tazed him and he still refused to leave. If you had a son or daughter at a university, and some unknown person was found in their computer lab and refused to show ID, how would you react.

How is my conclusion not drawn when he tells the officers to F-off. The kid goes on a tirade after being asked to leave the computer lab. Being in the computer lab requires ID. Either the kid didn't belong there or he was trying create a problem. If he didn't have authorization to be there, shame on him. How do you remove a trespasser? Not showing ID, they told him to leave. Some try to prove a point, considering when the camera was turned on, there is room for speculation. If he did, as evidenced by the number of cameras filming the situation, he did have an ID and refused to show it. He blantantly said that he was a med student at the college. Now if this is true, he has an ID. If this is false, campus security did their job. Now, for someone who refuses to show their ID and claims they are a med student, what do you believe. We can agree to disagree, but it looks staged to me.

Oddly enough, my last point was my strongest. Have you seen the blue lights on campus for alert boxes? Was the kid shot? Was the kid even a student? The kid failed to comply 4 times with directions, and it wasn't until the fifth time that he complied after 10 officers responded to the scene.

As much as everyone would like to think that campus security goes off and tazes every person that refuses to show ID, we're looking at 5 yrs after 9/11, an Iranian government that is looking for sympathy from a new Democratic Congress and looking for leverage. Wow, an Iranian-American getting tazed, when how many others have been tazed an covered by CNN. Guess what, it worked. It's on the front page news, how americans abuse Iranians. It's propoganda. Now think how you've been duped. Either we are these terribly bad Americans, or open your eyes to kaliedescope of the media.

Once again MS, I have nothing against ya. I'm actually glad you responded, as a reality check. We can agree to disagree, and thanks for your opinions.

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