WashingtonTimes: Minutemen not watching over funds

[The 12th Commandment]

So what if it takes a mammoth effort? I fully expect that building a wall would take mammoth effort. But why does that have anything to do with it working or not working? You haven't given a cogent argument as to why a wall wouldn't work. Of course it would work. And a wall wouldn't eliminate the supply of workers, either -- it would merely channel them through the legal points of entry.

Sure, given unlimited funding and unlimited support in perpetuity it would work. But we're not dealing with reality in that case. The level of money to build a wall that really would work would be beyond comprehension and it's not something I think the public would support when the numbers came out. For that reason it won't work. I mean come on do we need to split hairs over literal "work" and figurative "work"? And without cracking down on employers and allowing for the policy changes concerning the number and efficiency of people crossing legally even the most extreme wall imaginable wouldn't work entirely. Granted it would slow it down substantially.

My drug analogy does not make your point. You want to address the illegal immigrant issue on the demand side, and my point is that primarily focusing on that will be every bit as unsuccessful as it has been with the drug war. So far so good, but you miss the part about the wall. Your mistake is in assuming that the "tremendous effort to stem supply" of drugs is anywhere near as successful as a great wall would be at stopping people (which, incidentally, would stop not only people but some of the drugs as well). A wall would drop the tide to a trickle, and make it then more productive to address the demand side.

I don't think we've given it much of an effort on the demand side with respect to the war on drugs. I'm not proposing how that would be accomplished, but I don't think much of an attempt has been made. And to turn your argument again, the effort to crack down on the employment of illegals, and to change federal immigration policy would be much easier, cheaper and straight forward than trying to squelch the demand for illegal drugs. Just as the stemming of drug supply isn't as easy as building a wall.

I see us in agreement here at least with respect to the fact that this issue should be much easier to resolve than the drug issue. Our politicos just need to quit politicizing the issue and get down to business.

[Midnight Judges]

The minutemen are a bunch of racist ****s hiding behind the law to keep out folks that they simply don't like, and never will. There have always been anti-immigrant folks here in the USA, including people who are immigrants themselves (hypocrites). The Polish, Jews, Germans, Italians, Asians-all faced opposition in the peaks of their immigration waves. For the last 150 years idiots like the mentalmidgetmen project have constantly said the USA is going to hell in a handbasket as a result of the most recent immigrants. Every time, the ethno-centric self-centered folks are proven wrong. The newest immigrants and their children make us stronger and more diverse, and they fight in our military, build our structures, and are productive just like the rest of us. America is a melting pot but these simple-minded people want to turn it into an ice cube-frozen in time...there have always been Americans like this, and they have always been wrong, and motivated by racism.

Screw the minutemen. Their financial woes are hilarious to me.

[BlueTalon]

Are you really as ignorant as your post makes you appear? If you think this topic is driven by racism, then you probably are. Nobody is advocating shutting down all immigration -- we just want it to happen legally. Why is that racist?

[Fred Jones]

The minutemen are a bunch of racist ****s hiding behind the law to keep out folks that they simply don't like, and never will. There have always been anti-immigrant folks here in the USA, including people who are immigrants themselves (hypocrites). The Polish, Jews, Germans, Italians, Asians-all faced opposition in the peaks of their immigration waves. For the last 150 years idiots like the mentalmidgetmen project have constantly said the USA is going to hell in a handbasket as a result of the most recent immigrants. Every time, the ethno-centric self-centered folks are proven wrong. The newest immigrants and their children make us stronger and more diverse, and they fight in our military, build our structures, and are productive just like the rest of us. America is a melting pot but these simple-minded people want to turn it into an ice cube-frozen in time...there have always been Americans like this, and they have always been wrong, and motivated by racism.

Screw the minutemen. Their financial woes are hilarious to me.

I think this view is too far to the left. The minutemen do have a purpose which IMHO is to supplement the border patrol. Like everyone else, they need rules and supervision and can't just kill anyone that crosses the border, but they do have a purpose.

[Midnight Judges]

Are you really as ignorant as your post makes you appear? If you think this topic is driven by racism, then you probably are. Nobody is advocating shutting down all immigration -- we just want it to happen legally. Why is that racist?

This topic is driven by racism for some, not all. Funny how you think my post is ignorant, yet it is founded in history. Are you denying that historically some Americans have been opposed to the newest batch of immigrants? -Because I think THAT would be ignorant.

[The 12th Commandment]

I think this view is too far to the left. The minutemen do have a purpose which IMHO is to supplement the border patrol. Like everyone else, they need rules and supervision and can't just kill anyone that crosses the border, but they do have a purpose.

I would lay odds that for some of the minutemen Midnights characterizations would hold true. But I don't believe it's all of them and in a twisted way I am sure they think they are doing a noble thing. In practice I've seen evidence that in fact there is not a purpose for them. They get in the way and create tension in a part of the country where there is already too much. By this I mean on the ground at the border. The agents, who do have a purpose and a mandate creating the purpose, have more to deal with making their job even harder.

[Midnight Judges]

I think this view is too far to the left. The minutemen do have a purpose which IMHO is to supplement the border patrol. Like everyone else, they need rules and supervision and can't just kill anyone that crosses the border, but they do have a purpose.

I admit, I am far left on this particular issue. The land of the free is not an exclusive club IMO.

[skinz4evr]

Are you really as ignorant as your post makes you appear? If you think this topic is driven by racism, then you probably are. Nobody is advocating shutting down all immigration -- we just want it to happen legally. Why is that racist?

I'm sorry I had to read the crap MidnightJudges wrote in order to ascertain what your well written responses have been referring to. Just when you think people can't really be SO stupid, they decide to post. Thanks for taking the effort to respond to such idiotic posts like MJ is leaving. I hope he's not really that ignorant, and is just trying to agitate.

[Fred Jones]

I'm sorry I had to read the crap MidnightJudges wrote in order to ascertain what your well written responses have been referring to. Just when you think people can't really be SO stupid, they decide to post. Thanks for taking the effort to respond to such idiotic posts like MJ is leaving. I hope he's not really that ignorant, and is just trying to agitate.

Midnight is just offering his opinion. I don't really agree with it, but his opinion is just his opinion. I always try to take the balance approach. I would like to see real numbers as Kao pointed out to what it would cost to build a wall that BT advocated. It might or might not be possible to build a big wall.

I would like to see stronger border enforcement and stronger enforcement of existing laws. I think you have to both stop them at the border and go after businesses that harbor illegals. Unfortunately, you can't just shoot them as they cross. Concerning the story of the rancher that repeatedly gets her house broken into would be a nice job for the minutemen to open fire the next time they illegally enter the house.

[swaroopm]

Stereotyping doesn't seem like a very enlightened thing to do. Are you sure you're qualified/competent to make that judgment? On what precisely do you base you opinion of their education levels and intellect? Possible financial mismanagement by one or two people in leadership positions? And how do you define everything, as in "screw up everything", apart from the financial question?

Point taken. In part, my comments stemmed from the fact that many critics of the "Minutemen" (including posts here) have said that they are making things more difficult for the Border Patrol and that their actual assistance is minimal. The "Minutemen" do acknowledge that they don't actually achieve much in their limited patrols and that they are working in part to call attention to the insufficiently-protected border. However, critics go beyond questioning the limited contributions and suggest that the "Minutemen" activities, however well-intentioned, are counterproductive. Regardless of their education levels, I don't think it is outlandish to question the intellect of those who seek to achieve an objective and then undertake actions that undermine that objective.

My further commentary about them "screwing everything up" comes from the fact that these problems undermine their credibility. For a group that has been criticized for the rationale behind its activities, problems such as these are damning in a way. How can you win support when you allow your critics to paint you as inept? I think the situation described in the article seems to fit very well with the critics' characterization of the "Minutemen." Whatever their activities on the border, the "Minutemen" hurt their own cause by mismanaging their money and through the ensuing organizational disarray. Supporters of the "Minutemen" should be dismayed.

I think "Possible financial mismanagement by one or two people in leadership positions" is an understatement of the situation described in the article. A significant amount of money seems to be missing, the group has consistently dragged its feet on efforts at accounting, the financial problems are driving "several of the group's top lieutenants" to leave the organization, and some of those who have questioned the finances (such as Mr. Cole) have apparently been purged from the organization. It's not just that the money is missing, it's that the missing money is disrupting or fracturing the organization.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

KAO,

The problem I see with your way of looking at this is that there is no way to remove the "demand" side of the scale. We live in a "free" country where the government does not have unlimited control over the business community. There are ways that we could reduce the problem, but we're never going to stop it. Even my concept of essentially putting every business caught employing even a single illegal our of business isn't going to stop them all. Especially if we don't cut off the supply of illegals willing to work for next to nothing. We do need to work on the demand side, but it isn't a catch-all answer to the problem.

Unfortunately the supply side answer I believe I've seen from you in the past isn't terribly helpful either. I believe you've advocated an expansion of the legal immigration numbers and a streamlining of the process for legal immigration. That's not going to stop the illegal border crossings. Even if we allowed 10 million Mexicans in a year, numbers 10,000,001 to 20,000,000; who don't want to wait another year are going to attempt to illegally cross the border. There is no supply side fix for this issue without literally drawing a line in the sand from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean. A line that has lethal consequences for crossing it.

Both ends of the problem need to be worked on. Both ends need to be fixed. Unforunately we're not going to fix either end of the problem without serious, dire, permanent consequences for stepping out of line. That's just the way I see it and nothing is going to change that.

[The 12th Commandment]

KAO,

The problem I see with your way of looking at this is that there is no way to remove the "demand" side of the scale. We live in a "free" country where the government does not have unlimited control over the business community. There are ways that we could reduce the problem, but we're never going to stop it. Even my concept of essentially putting every business caught employing even a single illegal our of business isn't going to stop them all. Especially if we don't cut off the supply of illegals willing to work for next to nothing. We do need to work on the demand side, but it isn't a catch-all answer to the problem.

You're absolutely right. It isn't a catch all, and I have consistently supported strengthening our border too. I just think a wall big enough to serve it's purpose isn't the way to do it. Intelligent deployment of barriers where they will be of use along with technology and field staff where they can't. It don't see it as being any less effective or pro-immigrant for that matter. To me it's simply a matter of cost/benefit.

Unfortunately the supply side answer I believe I've seen from you in the past isn't terribly helpful either. I believe you've advocated an expansion of the legal immigration numbers and a streamlining of the process for legal immigration. That's not going to stop the illegal border crossings. Even if we allowed 10 million Mexicans in a year, numbers 10,000,001 to 20,000,000; who don't want to wait another year are going to attempt to illegally cross the border. There is no supply side fix for this issue without literally drawing a line in the sand from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean. A line that has lethal consequences for crossing it.

I think we can be more effective curbing demand than you do. We have regulations limiting all kinds of activities that would save business money but would be bad for society. Regulations have stopped labor practices in the past that society deemed weren't good, I don't see any child sweatshops here anymore. And I bet there were people in the 1800's who claimed that regulation could never do away with them.

When there aren't jobs for them and there is a known time frame for coming across a large number of them while avail themselves of it. Why wouldn't they? It's expensive and dangerous to come over like they are now. It seems to me they are just doing it because there isn't a choice and the know there are jobs. Deal with both those issues and why would they continue to come in large numbers? The smaller numbers still coming would be much easier to deal with using the methods I propose.

Both ends of the problem need to be worked on. Both ends need to be fixed. Unforunately we're not going to fix either end of the problem without serious, dire, permanent consequences for stepping out of line. That's just the way I see it and nothing is going to change that.

On this we are in complete agreement.

[BlueTalon]

Unfortunately the supply side answer I believe I've seen from you in the past isn't terribly helpful either. I believe you've advocated an expansion of the legal immigration numbers and a streamlining of the process for legal immigration. That's not going to stop the illegal border crossings. Even if we allowed 10 million Mexicans in a year, numbers 10,000,001 to 20,000,000; who don't want to wait another year are going to attempt to illegally cross the border.

That, plus 100% of the ones that want to cross for strictly illegal purposes are going to avoid going through legal entry points if the possibility still exists to simply walk or drive accross.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

You're absolutely right. It isn't a catch all, and I have consistently supported strengthening our border too. I just think a wall big enough to serve it's purpose isn't the way to do it. Intelligent deployment of barriers where they will be of use along with technology and field staff where they can't. It don't see it as being any less effective or pro-immigrant for that matter. To me it's simply a matter of cost/benefit.

The problem with your concept, as I see it, is that the WALL is a psychological deterent as much as anything else. It's a clear, obvious, and undeniable "DO NOT ENTER" sign. If we simply put up the same sheet metal and chicken wire crap that's there now, there's no deterent factor. The WALL is an obvious and blatant "threat" if you will. Can it be subverted... sure. But it's going to take more time, energy and effort. Especially when that wall is patrolled by armed soldiers.

I think we can be more effective curbing demand than you do. We have regulations limiting all kinds of activities that would save business money but would be bad for society. Regulations have stopped labor practices in the past that society deemed weren't good, I don't see any child sweatshops here anymore. And I bet there were people in the 1800's who claimed that regulation could never do away with them.

The problem with curbing demand for illegal immigrants compared to the child labor issue you compared it to, and other labor issues from America's past is that we're not just dealing with one culture. In the case of child labor and other American labor issues, once the mentality of the American people was changed the issue was over. We now have a situation where we're dealing with two dissimilar cultures. We're also not dealing with an issue that's going to be fixed through the creation of labor unions.

When there aren't jobs for them and there is a known time frame for coming across a large number of them while avail themselves of it. Why wouldn't they? It's expensive and dangerous to come over like they are now. It seems to me they are just doing it because there isn't a choice and the know there are jobs. Deal with both those issues and why would they continue to come in large numbers? The smaller numbers still coming would be much easier to deal with using the methods I propose.

The problem is that there are always going to be people willing to take the chance and employ illegal aliens. Whether they're farms or some other industry. Some people will always take that chance. Additionally, we have social welfare programs in this country that don't check the legal status of the people signing up for them. We also give legal status to illegal children born here. There will still be reasons for these people to risk crossing the border illegally. Until we stop ALL the benefits for those people who cross illegally, it will keep on happening. No matter how many we allow in on a yearly basis.

Part of my biggest problem with this whole idea is that these people come to this country and don't acclimate to OUR society. They bring their society with them and expect us to cater to it. If these people, and more immigrants in general would come here to become AMERICANS rather than hypenated americans (ie.. Mexican-american, Asian-american, etc...) I'd have a lot less complaint.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

That, plus 100% of the ones that want to cross for strictly illegal purposes are going to avoid going through legal entry points if the possibility still exists to simply walk or drive accross.

Go back to my original wall comments and find where I talked about legal entry points (I didn't). I'm not planning on providing any legal entry points in that wall. I'm talking SOLID CONCRETE from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean.

[BlueTalon]

Point taken. In part, my comments stemmed from the fact that many critics of the "Minutemen" (including posts here) have said that they are making things more difficult for the Border Patrol and that their actual assistance is minimal. The "Minutemen" do acknowledge that they don't actually achieve much in their limited patrols and that they are working in part to call attention to the insufficiently-protected border. However, critics go beyond questioning the limited contributions and suggest that the "Minutemen" activities, however well-intentioned, are counterproductive. Regardless of their education levels, I don't think it is outlandish to question the intellect of those who seek to achieve an objective and then undertake actions that undermine that objective.

Well, of course critics are going to suggest that their activities are counterproductive. That's what critics do. And yes, it is still outlandish "to question the intellect of those who seek to achieve an objective and then undertake actions that undermine that objective" when it isn't universally agreed upon that their actions are undermining their objective.

My further commentary about them "screwing everything up" comes from the fact that these problems undermine their credibility. For a group that has been criticized for the rationale behind its activities, problems such as these are damning in a way. How can you win support when you allow your critics to paint you as inept? I think the situation described in the article seems to fit very well with the critics' characterization of the "Minutemen." Whatever their activities on the border, the "Minutemen" hurt their own cause by mismanaging their money and through the ensuing organizational disarray. Supporters of the "Minutemen" should be dismayed.

Again, saying that they have been "criticized for the rationale" behind their activities is relatively meaningless, since it is the aforementioned critics that are doing the criticizing.

Granted, financial mismanagement or even fraud/theft is not going to help their cause. If it's fraud or theft, someone will likely end up in jail. Assume for a moment that it's simply mismanagement. While I expect an organization to exercise as much care as possible with its finances, especially with donations, I don't expect perfection. The guys who started it did it because they saw a need to be active on the border, not because they were financial geniuses. If no accountants have volunteered their time, then the finances are probably being handled by someone other than an accountant.

I think "Possible financial mismanagement by one or two people in leadership positions" is an understatement of the situation described in the article. A significant amount of money seems to be missing, the group has consistently dragged its feet on efforts at accounting, the financial problems are driving "several of the group's top lieutenants" to leave the organization, and some of those who have questioned the finances (such as Mr. Cole) have apparently been purged from the organization. It's not just that the money is missing, it's that the missing money is disrupting or fracturing the organization.

Just how big do you think the Minutemen organization is? "One or two" people in leadership position might not be accurate -- it might be three. This is not the sort of group that leases a floor of a skyscraper. It's the sort of group that is run from a garage or a trailor, or perhaps an office in a strip mall.

At any rate, if the Minutemen ceases to exist as an organization the way it is currently constituted, it will pop back up in some other form with other people leading it. The "cause" is not the Minutemen, the cause is border security.

[swaroopm]

Part of my biggest problem with this whole idea is that these people come to this country and don't acclimate to OUR society. They bring their society with them and expect us to cater to it. If these people, and more immigrants in general would come here to become AMERICANS rather than hypenated americans (ie.. Mexican-american, Asian-american, etc...) I'd have a lot less complaint.

As long as you have a problem with hyphenated-Americans in "OUR" society, I assume that you have just as much of a problem with Germans (like your forefathers) coming here and being German-American as you do with Mexicans coming here and becoming Mexican-Americans or Asians coming here and becoming Asian-Americans. If so, you must really be dismayed by the numerous German-American festivals that take place in the US, e.g.:

http://www.aviso.net/dir/usa/german/events/

In any case, I'm not sure what "whole idea" you are referring to in this recent paragraph. Is it the idea of immigration, illegal immigration, or something else? I don't think you are referring to the "whole idea" of immigration - you have stated already that you are not opposed to immigration, only illegal immigration. However, the "part of my biggest problem" that you refer to would seem to apply to immigrants as a whole. Legal immigrants obviously constitute part of "OUR" society, and I really don't think there is any distinction between legal and illegal immigrants in terms of the extent to which they assimilate into "OUR" society. Please clarify what you mean.

[BlueTalon]

I would like to see real numbers as Kao pointed out to what it would cost to build a wall that BT advocated. It might or might not be possible to build a big wall.

Well, it certainly is possible. And it wouldn't have to be done all at once. We would start at the flat, easily crossable areas, where coincidentally construction would also be easiest and least expensive. That way we could eliminate large stretches of easily crossed land relatively quickly. That would leave the mountainous regions open for the more adventurous/stupid illegal aliens, but those would eventually get closed off too.

Go back to my original wall comments and find where I talked about legal entry points (I didn't). I'm not planning on providing any legal entry points in that wall. I'm talking SOLID CONCRETE from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean.

Well, then you and I are going to disagree on that. I reserve the right to visit Mexico and buy some blankets and Kahlua. I want a wall with entry points that have facilities to gather biometric data on every Bruce and Sheila coming into the country. (That goes for airports, too. I want fingerprints and photographs of everyone. That would keep repeat offenders out, or make it exceptionally easy to catch the stupid ones.) And if DNA testing gets cheap enough, we'll start taking samples of that, too.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

As long as you have a problem with hyphenated-Americans in "OUR" society, I assume that you have just as much of a problem with Germans (like your forefathers) coming here and being German-American as you do with Mexicans coming here and becoming Mexican-Americans or Asians coming here and becoming Asian-Americans. If so, you must really be dismayed by the numerous German-American festivals that take place in the US.

I have just as much disgust for those people who use the prefix German, French, Italian, etc... in front of american as I do those who use Asian, Mexican, Hispanic, etc... I do find it disheartening that many people who come here (from wherever) cannot give up their former culture and buy into America and instead must celebrate their heritage from other countries instead of their Americanness.

In any case, I'm not sure what "whole idea" you are referring to in this recent paragraph. Is it the idea of immigration, illegal immigration, or something else? I don't think you are referring to the "whole idea" of immigration - you have stated already that you are not opposed to immigration, only illegal immigration. However, the "part of my biggest problem" that you refer to would seem to apply to immigrants as a whole. Legal immigrants obviously constitute part of "OUR" society, and I really don't think there is any distinction between legal and illegal immigrants in terms of the extent to which they assimilate into "OUR" society. Please clarify what you mean.

I was refering to the whole concept of immigration in general. We need to explain to these people that if they want to come here, they need to become AMERICANS. Not hypenated americans. Not citizens of some other country residing in America. If you don't want to buy into American culture, stay home. This is a large part of why I believe we need to move from a "Right of Citizenship" culture to a "Privledge of Citizenship" society. Does that clarify it for you?

[swaroopm]

Well, of course critics are going to suggest that their activities are counterproductive. That's what critics do. And yes, it is still outlandish "to question the intellect of those who seek to achieve an objective and then undertake actions that undermine that objective" when it isn't universally agreed upon that their actions are undermining their objective.

You're entitled to your opinion with regard to the contributions of the "Minutemen" to border security and to the issue of illegal immigration.

Again, saying that they have been "criticized for the rationale" behind their activities is relatively meaningless, since it is the aforementioned critics that are doing the criticizing.

I think you have missed my point entirely. It's easy to dismiss the critics (and their criticism) when the criticism is rooted only in the critique. It's harder to dismiss that criticism when it's supported by other evidence. When the critics say the "Minutemen" don't know what they're doing, and then the "Minutemen" don't seem to know what they're doing, the critics become credible.

The fact that this group has apparently failed to prepare adequately with regard to their finances is, in my mind, an indictment of their intellect. I am not an accountant, but I have helped run (and served in treasury and accounting functions for) small nonprofit groups (including one that is 501© registered) where we had no difficulty keeping track of our donors, donations, and expenditures. It's a basic function required in a non-profit group that accepts donations. The groups I have worked with have had no trailer or strip-mall office, having been run out of the leaders' homes or a community center.

I draw a connection between the financial problems of the "Minutemen" and their border security activities, because I see both as signs of a group that doesn't have things in order. I think they undermine their cause by these failings, which (again) is what I mean by saying they are "screwing everything up." This is why I think that even those who are concerned about the "cause" of border security should be dismayed by the "Minutemen."

Granted, financial mismanagement or even fraud/theft is not going to help their cause. If it's fraud or theft, someone will likely end up in jail. Assume for a moment that it's simply mismanagement.

What basis do I have to make this assumption? Having read the news article, I am skeptical that it is "simply mismanagement." There are multiple instances cited in which the organization's leadership has tried to avoid or silence inquiries regarding its finances.

At any rate, if the Minutemen ceases to exist as an organization the way it is currently constituted, it will pop back up in some other form with other people leading it. The "cause" is not the Minutemen, the cause is border security.

That's fine with me. If there is a new organization, I hope its leadership will display greater intelligence and insight with regard to border security, illegal immigration, and their own activities than has been displayed by the current "Minutemen" leadership.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Well, then you and I are going to disagree on that. I reserve the right to visit Mexico and buy some blankets and Kahlua. I want a wall with entry points that have facilities to gather biometric data on every Bruce and Sheila coming into the country. (That goes for airports, too. I want fingerprints and photographs of everyone. That would keep repeat offenders out, or make it exceptionally easy to catch the stupid ones.) And if DNA testing gets cheap enough, we'll start taking samples of that, too.

Sorry, but so far as I'm concerned there is no need for there to be any points of entry in the wall. Aircraft and boat passengers are much easier to document upon entry. In fact there are already services in place for that at many, if not most of the area these people would be using to enter the country. Additionally, can't you get a blanket and a bottle of Kahlua locally? Do you REALLY need to go across the border to do so?

I'd like to see a fingerprint and photo recognition system myself. I don't personally like the idea of many of the other biometric ID systems.

[swaroopm]

I have just as much disgust for those people who use the prefix German, French, Italian, etc... in front of american as I do those who use Asian, Mexican, Hispanic, etc... I do find it disheartening that many people who come here (from wherever) cannot give up their former culture and buy into America and instead must celebrate their heritage from other countries instead of their Americanness.

I was refering to the whole concept of immigration in general. We need to explain to these people that if they want to come here, they need to become AMERICANS. Not hypenated americans. Not citizens of some other country residing in America. If you don't want to buy into American culture, stay home. This is a large part of why I believe we need to move from a "Right of Citizenship" culture to a "Privledge of Citizenship" society. Does that clarify it for you?

Yes, that is more clear. Given that the issue of race often gets tied into this discussion, I thought that your comments about "OUR society" and about "hypenated americans (ie.. Mexican-american, Asian-american, etc...)" could be easily misinterpreted. After all, you are apparently of German descent and you specifically raised an issue with Mexicans and Asians for maintaining connections to their homelands. To the reader, it is unclear what groups your "etc" refers to. Also, you have interjected a discussion about immigration into a discussion about illegal immigration. I do not doubt the consistency of your views and I am glad you took the opportunity to clarify them.

[swaroopm]

Additionally, can't you get a blanket and a bottle of Kahlua locally? Do you REALLY need to go across the border to do so?

Isn't Kahlua imported from Mexico? If so, I don't know how we're going to get it once MSF builds the impenetrable Great Wall of America...I guess they'll have to ship it by air or by sea. Otherwise, we REALLY will need to go across the border to get it.

[LApunkrocker72]

The Minutemen are a sick group of people who need to have their heads examined. Plain and simple.

[swaroopm]

The Minutemen are a sick group of people who need to have their heads examined. Plain and simple.

Did you even read the thread? The "Minutemen" don't know where all their money went - how can they afford to have their heads examined? Maybe you should consider making a donation.