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Modern-day U.S. = Roman Empire circa AD 100?


Raub

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What amazes me, and I'm not addressing your post Poker (please excuse me), is that some in this country look at other populations, and see sophistication. Yet, they look at the lower educated in this country, and try to represent it as though it is the mainstream. Our poor live better than many country's lower class.

I'll take our country, in all our endevours, over what France, Russia, Germany, and Italy are doing at this time. We could be cruel to the rest of the world. We could look for world domination. We have the power that, given to Hitler, Stalin (replace any Roman emperor's name here), could have utilized to do so. However, we single out our enemies. We have the ultimate power, yet we restrain. It bothers me that ppl don't notice this......Although, many ppl in this thread obviously do.

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In the end, everything fails.

I worry about the question of the decline of American power all the time. I think the only things that can stem the decline is a government that is trully responsive to it's people's needs, the willingness of the government and it's people to defend the ideals said country was founded on, and the ability to improve itself when it finds a flaw in it's system. I also think only democracy can work.

We have all of those things to a point, but as people become disenfranchised with this country's leaders, we lose them little by little. And that is on both sides of the political spectrum.

I hope I don't live to see the end of the U.S' position in the world. I doubt I wll.

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I agree that the particular weaknesses that brought down the Roman Empire, especially its far-flung nature, don't necessarily apply to the modern US. However, I agree with the initial post that, like any long-term power, we shouldn't get too comfortable with our position. Things can change fast. I'm not that old, but I can still remember when people around the world considered the USSR one of the two most powerful countries. Not long after, the whole thing fell apart.

It's often been said that the 1900s were the "American Century." Unfortunately we are in the 2000s now. Our country is in tremendous debt (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/) and our current Congress and President are just making it worse. Our manufacturing economy has been in a long decline and our consumer-driven culture is sustained by massive outflows of (our) money to other countries and by energy resources that we are forced to import. Our population is rapidly aging at the same time that household savings are at an all-time low. There is plenty of cause for us to be concerned about the country's future.

If and when we witness a substantial erosion of the "checks and balances" decentralization of power that our democracy hinges on, then we'll have a real worry of devolving into the type of "empire" that you guys are referring to, I'd bet. So an effort by any branch of government to overreach for power should be viewed with extreme suspicion by all Americans, not just those of one political party, seems to me.

I don't know if you are making reference to the current state of affairs, but personally I am really disappointed with the way our govt is operating right now. I think we have deviated badly from the proper arrangement of checks and balances. On the one hand, we have a president who deviates from the bills he signs using "signing statements" to subjugate the will of the Congress. Even before that came to light, I thought the president (and not just the current one) had taken on way too much of a role in making laws and setting policy as opposed to carrying out the laws and policies that are established by Congress...this moves us dangerously in the direction of monarchy. The executive is charged with carrying out the law, not developing it. At the same time, we have a Congress that right now is trying to pass a law that would "deny jurisdiction to federal courts, and appellate jurisdiction to the Supreme Court, to decide questions pertaining to the interpretation or constitutionality of the pledge." Why is the president taking over a lawmaking role and the Congress trying to make (ANY) laws that are not subject to judicial review? Did none of these politician idiots take civics in elementary school and learn the differences among the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of our govt? It drives me crazy. The Constitution has worked out pretty well so far so I don't see any reason to go and mess it up at this point.

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People have often predicted dissapation and failure but always seem to like to see it off in the distant future. While parallels to Rome apply in some circumstances I believe a better one might be Britain circa 1870/80. The clearly dominant military and social power in the world finds itself increasingly embroiled in foreign wars and intrigues that rivet its attention and resources to holding on, ie. the Zulu campaigns, the Boer War, India, etc. There was a lot of unrest and concern in the British public and media of the time but they were almost unanimous in seeing decline off in the far future, "not in our lifetimes" because their economic and technological edge would stave it off. Little over a generation later and the European powers were choosing sides to try their new toys and we know how that went.

If anything history has sped up, countries cycle through their stages faster now. America herself shall remain but her place in the world could change drastically and quicker than any of us would want to see. A geopolitical alliance between India and China for example could severely warp the international landscape (not that it's likely). I'd like to see us handing over some of the burden to other countries and taking the opportunity to do some mending on the frayed places in our own.

At some point the civilized countries of the world just might wake up to the realization that they are safer and happier with America at their side.

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People have often predicted dissapation and failure but always seem to like to see it off in the distant future. While parallels to Rome apply in some circumstances I believe a better one might be Britain circa 1870/80. The clearly dominant military and social power in the world finds itself increasingly embroiled in foreign wars and intrigues that rivet its attention and resources to holding on, ie. the Zulu campaigns, the Boer War, India, etc. There was a lot of unrest and concern in the British public and media of the time but they were almost unanimous in seeing decline off in the far future, "not in our lifetimes" because their economic and technological edge would stave it off. Little over a generation later and the European powers were choosing sides to try their new toys and we know how that went.

If anything history has sped up, countries cycle through their stages faster now. America herself shall remain but her place in the world could change drastically and quicker than any of us would want to see. A geopolitical alliance between India and China for example could severely warp the international landscape (not that it's likely). I'd like to see us handing over some of the burden to other countries and taking the opportunity to do some mending on the frayed places in our own.

At some point the civilized countries of the world just might wake up to the realization that they are safer and happier with America at their side.

Excellent post.

I think the nation that can safely mesh sustained space travel/commerce will become the next superpower.Laugh all you want but the next stage in space travel ie lunar bases and some mineral cultivation will put that country over the top.America's problem is that we want to be all things to all people.Eventualy that does not work,and until we stop being unilateral in all endeavors we'll be choking on China, India and Japan's dust in short order.

But remember Rome was "dead" long before the Visigoths swarmed the walls.The moral decay had festered for centuries and it became a shadow of its former self.

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Its an interseting topic and I think the comparison with the British Empire in teh mid to late Victorian era is a much better example.

In the end I think its clear that no country will be able to defeat the US militarily in any fundamental sense (minor overseas conflicts not withstanding). However, Britain was never defeated militarily in such a way either. The reasons for the decline of the British empire are complicated and are much better explained by Niall Ferguson's excellent book "Empire".

Essentially Britain became exhausted by the effort of maintaining its pre-eminence and was overtaken by a younger, hungrier, more innovative newcomer (USA) in the same way as BRitain became pre-eminent over the European powers 100 years earlier.

The era of US dominance will end at some point, the good news is that hopefully the end won't be marked by the cataclysms of two world wars and 40 million people killed.

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Alot of really good points...I tend to see the way we currebtly are, yes it is reasonable to compare us to the Roman Empire; especially if we continue down the same road we are on. The Roman Empire started it's downfall when it got too ****y and too much in debt. They started to be unable to sustain their military the way it was, and public attitude started to fall. The leaders were not the great thinkers, and strategists that once were. They became for lack of a better word crazy. The population became doomsayers, and were very fickle.

The advantage that we have as a country is that we adapt, and as it stands right now, power is still in the hands of the people. I think the countr yis due for a wake-up call...how that will happen, I don't know, who will provide it, no clue, but the path we are on will lead us the same way as the Roman Empire.

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I'd like to see us handing over some of the burden to other countries and taking the opportunity to do some mending on the frayed places in our own.

At some point the civilized countries of the world just might wake up to the realization that they are safer and happier with America at their side.

:applause:

I would like to see an adjustment to our foreign policy as it stands now (and has, largely, since the end of WW2). Roll back foreign military campaigns, decrease spending on military technology (or at least increase the proportion paid to military personel and away from the military-industrial complex), and work on diplomacy - especially with large trading partners.

The brave new world is that of economic, and not military power. With more countries able to acquire nuclear deterrents and potential enemies comprised of stateless guerrilla groups, large conventional armies aren't as useful as they once were. Becoming and remaining economically dominant should be our #1, #2, and #3 goal as a nation.

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:applause:

I would like to see an adjustment to our foreign policy as it stands now (and has, largely, since the end of WW2). Roll back foreign military campaigns, decrease spending on military technology (or at least increase the proportion paid to military personel and away from the military-industrial complex), and work on diplomacy - especially with large trading partners.

The brave new world is that of economic, and not military power. With more countries able to acquire nuclear deterrents and potential enemies comprised of stateless guerrilla groups, large conventional armies aren't as useful as they once were. Becoming and remaining economically dominant should be our #1, #2, and #3 goal as a nation.

Sure we must remain economically dominant ,but this nation needs to invest in R&D and the sciences.

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I've read some who theorize that the use of Drinking cups made of lead by the Roman Armies caused widespread death. Thereby depleating their soldier base, which in turn forced them to withdraw from areas the already had conquered (like england). If you buy into this theory, it wasn't only hubris that brought the empire down.

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"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapse over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the worlds greatest civilization has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:

*From bondage to spiritual faith

*from spiritual faith to great courage

*from courage to liberty

*from liberty to abundance

*from abundance to selfishness

*from selfishness to complacency

*from complacency to apathy

*from apathy to dependency

*from dependency back again to bondage."

Where is America at?

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I think it's a valid comparison. I think that the mercenary armies we have hired are economic. Other countries produce our cars, stereos, computers, furniture, etc. They hold our debt. We out source more and more of our jobs, including the high skill stuff. We are becoming more and more dependent on other nations to provide for us. I don't think we'll go out hiring swords, but we have begun the process over the last thirty years of trying to make "Made in America" an oxymoron.

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"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapse over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the worlds greatest civilization has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:

*From bondage to spiritual faith

*from spiritual faith to great courage

*from courage to liberty

*from liberty to abundance

*from abundance to selfishness

*from selfishness to complacency

*from complacency to apathy

*from apathy to dependency

*from dependency back again to bondage."

Where is America at?

Where did that come from....it is pretty interesting to read that.....

To answer, I think we are here....

*from selfishness to complacency

somwhere in the middle

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"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapse over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the worlds greatest civilization has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:

*From bondage to spiritual faith

*from spiritual faith to great courage

*from courage to liberty

*from liberty to abundance

*from abundance to selfishness

*from selfishness to complacency

*from complacency to apathy

*from apathy to dependency

*from dependency back again to bondage."

Where is America at?

We arent' a democracy. :)

I think it's obvious that the rise and fall of great civilizations is a veritable given in the history of mankind. Given the odds, it is likely that the US will fall from superpower status eventually.

Ever since our founding, the US has enjoyed several huge advantages over the rest of the nations of the world: A culture of individual achievement, abundance of resources (particularly land), militarily weak neighbors, and two great oceans buffering us from harm. Some of those advantages are starting to dissappear (oceans are no longer as big a buffer and some argue our culture is not as strong as it once was) so it's only natural to look and see which nations have advantages over the US sufficient to supplant us. Right now I think China and India are the obvious candidates. They both have a huge advantage over us right now: manpower. And both are cutting into our cultural advantage at a great rate as well.

So yeah, I could see us falling from the Big Chair. Though these are just my amatuerish observations.

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Where did that come from....it is pretty interesting to read that.....

To answer, I think we are here....

*from selfishness to complacency

somwhere in the middle

Its been attributed to Alexander Tytler's 1801 collection of lecture on Universal History. Obviously some cultures are definitely the exception to the 200 year mark. I would agree with your assessment too.:)
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One thing I'd like to add- America "falling" from its hyperpower status wouldn't necessarily be the worst thing that could happen to us. During most of our history we have been a second/third rate military power, and our primary economic engine was agriculture based on resources no one could match. Now, the last century radically changed some of the rules but not all of them. No matter what, India and China (the two obvious contenders) are already being backed up against the wall of feeding billions w/ more on the way. Neither one has access to the arable soil necessary to duplicate our agricultural system so we will retain that. Our military will still be able to defend us (that's what it is SUPPOSED to be for) and I don't see a coup coming from Mexico or Canada anytime soon. We might benefit more from gracefully handing the reins to whomever wants them and focusing on reinvigorating America herself.

When you look at the $$ spent to maintain and enlarge the military added to foreign aid we could be investing in homegrown R&D that will relight the fires of the US industrial machine. Let Asia make cars or shoes, we need to look ahead to the next century's technologies and crack the riddle of r/t superconductors, energy alternatives, viable space use and colonization, etc.

Unfortunately, whether the parallels are drawn to Britain or Rome or someone else, it seems that the process of decline and decay begins when those with vision and those with say become two separate groups.

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One thing I'd like to add- America "falling" from its hyperpower status wouldn't necessarily be the worst thing that could happen to us. During most of our history we have been a second/third rate military power, and our primary economic engine was agriculture based on resources no one could match. Now, the last century radically changed some of the rules but not all of them. No matter what, India and China (the two obvious contenders) are already being backed up against the wall of feeding billions w/ more on the way. Neither one has access to the arable soil necessary to duplicate our agricultural system so we will retain that. Our military will still be able to defend us (that's what it is SUPPOSED to be for) and I don't see a coup coming from Mexico or Canada anytime soon. We might benefit more from gracefully handing the reins to whomever wants them and focusing on reinvigorating America herself.

When you look at the $$ spent to maintain and enlarge the military added to foreign aid we could be investing in homegrown R&D that will relight the fires of the US industrial machine. Let Asia make cars or shoes, we need to look ahead to the next century's technologies and crack the riddle of r/t superconductors, energy alternatives, viable space use and colonization, etc.

Unfortunately, whether the parallels are drawn to Britain or Rome or someone else, it seems that the process of decline and decay begins when those with vision and those with say become two separate groups.

It's all about complacency in my opinion. We become "fat and happy" and all of our efforts are refocused on keeping what we have rather than pushing the limits, economically. It's human nature, but I believe this is at the root of why all dominant societies are eventually doomed to fail.

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One thing that spurs America is competition.If China or Japan has a lunar landing or creates a lunar base maybe we can begin funding the sciences as was done after Sputnik.

The one thing that seperates America from past empires is that this nation does not plant the red white and blue and declare say East Timor to be part of Pax Americana.Thus we are not obligated to take them under oure wing.MTV/Mc Donalds/iPods/Levis are a fine substitute though.

I think a domino effect of say a prolonged recession/depression( we're due another) along with some Katrina like natural disasters occuring can quickly accelerate the downfall though.

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I agree that it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for the US to take a step back and let someone else be the world's watchdog for a while. We could do away with the global projection capability of our military and still retain the ability to defend our nation at a reduced cost.

I think the biggest threat on the horizon is our dependence on other nations for finances, goods and services. How long will it take before are at the mercy of other nations for our machinery and electronics? How long before the rest of the world no longer wants to finance our overspending government? When that day comes and they start tightening the screws, we are going to be in a world of hurt.

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I think the biggest threat on the horizon is our dependence on other nations for finances, goods and services. How long will it take before are at the mercy of other nations for our machinery and electronics? How long before the rest of the world no longer wants to finance our overspending government? When that day comes and they start tightening the screws, we are going to be in a world of hurt.

Absolutely right. I have heard people here discuss the China vs US scenario from a military standpoint but if China really wanted us down, they could do it with ledgers and bills due. There is a lot of complacency in this country and an awful lot of people have staked their lives and livelihood on playing the housing market pyramid scheme that has to collapse sometime. China today has it in its power to trigger a major rate jump and light the fuse on that one. Fun thought, eh?

I still believe that we need vision and candor, social and political leaders that will speak the truth and stick to it to guide us in a more positive direction. Some of that should be a healthy dose of self-interest when it comes to business. Financing industries abroad had gutted our manufacturing/ production base and cost the middle class millions of good paying jobs. I'd like to see America investing in America and Americans to rebuild a sustainable economy not based on weapon sales overseas. It is possible but you'd have to gore some big money sacred cows in the process, and the political climate today just won't allow that.

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I think the biggest threat on the horizon is our dependence on other nations for finances, goods and services. How long will it take before are at the mercy of other nations for our machinery and electronics? How long before the rest of the world no longer wants to finance our overspending government? When that day comes and they start tightening the screws, we are going to be in a world of hurt.
I really think it's the opposite. The Roman Empire didn't fall because it was dependent on other nations. Its mistake was becoming too insular and too complacent. If we do the same thing and turn away from the international market, we will end up just like the Romans.
The one thing that seperates America from past empires is that this nation does not plant the red white and blue and declare say East Timor to be part of Pax Americana.Thus we are not obligated to take them under oure wing.MTV/Mc Donalds/iPods/Levis are a fine substitute though.

I agree with this assessment, and I would add that another thing that makes America truly unique is our high level of immigration. There has never been a major power where essentially the entire population migrated from elsewhere basically since the nation's birth. Our strength is in the fact that rather than taking over territory and trying to assimilate people into our empire, we welcome people into our territory who can assimilate within our culture much more easily than the far-flung reaches of the Roman Empire. In this way, we get the renewed vigor of an expanding empire without all the administrative problems of rebellious provinces.
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