Breaking News: Muslims Busted in plot to blow up Sears Tower

[rincewind]

Interesting observation (the two Trade Center and the Oklahoma attacks notwithstanding). They could do a lot less and have the same sort of impact. Admittedly, a smaller attack (blowing up a Starbucks) is going to have a much lower impact in the immediate area, but across the country it's going to create ample amounts of disruptive fear.

There was a story about a year or two ago that terrorists were targeting a small town in Virginia. The point of the attack would have been to show that they can struck anytime, anywhere - and that they are not necessarily interested in 'big' strikes. They want us to be afraid and just such an attack would surely do that.

[Air Force Cane]

of course if they were smart they could simply walk into a mall on a saturday and start shooting it up. then the next saturday do the same in a different mall. the next saturday in a different mall.

that would cost the economy about a billion dollars.

but they are too dumb to think things through strategically and tactically. most of these guys are simply losers who latch on to jihad to give their worthless lives meaning..

[rincewind]

of course if they were smart they could simply walk into a mall on a saturday and start shooting it up. then the next saturday do the same in a different mall. the next saturday in a different mall.

that would cost the economy about a billion dollars.

but they are too dumb to think things through strategically and tactically. most of these guys are simply losers who latch on to jihad to give their worthless lives meaning..

Great, just give 'em ideas AFC. :doh:

[Shallow1]

a few answers to your questions:

1. Yes, the vast majority of the Islamofascist terrorists are complete morons (see Richard Reid, the second attack on the London Tube where the bombs didnt' go off, hundreds in Iraq who walk down the street to get picked off by our snipers, Padilla, the Lackawanna 8, the Canadian 17, these dummies in Miami)

2. They state "black Muslims" because some of them have connections to Farrakhan/Nation of Islam/Black Islam offshoots. Meaning they are not Arab, but African Muslims

3. Profiling is also known as "national survival" when trying to fight international terrorism.

4. Anyone who believes that the World Trade Center towers collapsed because the "government" blew them up is a clinical paranoid..

I know I was just commenting how the news networks that are typically so critical of anyone doing these kind of things seem to be doing it themselves. Im all for profiling if it means innocent lives are saved. Glad they caught up with these guys, no matter who they are, it seems the common word associated with terrorism is "muslim" it would be nice if the Muslims would stand up and police there radical groups better.

[nelms]

Not so bad ass now are they? The world was sleeping and they hit us with 9/11 thanks in large part to Intell agencies not playing nice - now that they have our attention? It's plot detected and broken up, time after time, while their amigos in the home land get blown to bits by marines. We just have to keep focused and not fall asleep again until this violent offshoot of Islam is defeated for good.

We are winning!!! (they should make t-shirts and have americans wear them on july 4th just to piss them off)

We don't agree on much, but :applause:

[webnarc]

Im all for profiling if it means innocent lives are saved. Glad they caught up with these guys, no matter who they are, it seems the common word associated with terrorism is "muslim" it would be nice if the Muslims would stand up and police there radical groups better.

I'm very glad that they caught them too, but Timothy McVay was a Christian and he wouldn't have matched any profile that exists. He was also a vet from Gulf War 1.

Exception to the rule? Maybe.

[Redskins Diehard]

Great, just give 'em ideas AFC. :doh:

Does anyone remember the DC Sniper? It is exactly what they did from what I understand. Of course I was in the relative safety of Afghanistan when that happened!

Spectacular attacks are good for shock value...smaller ones are better to instill the real fear. Most Americans don't work in the military headquarters or in a skyscraper in the financial industry. Pretty much all of us drive...we all get gas...we all go to the store...that is how to incite widespread fear.

[Shallow1]

of course if they were smart they could simply walk into a mall on a saturday and start shooting it up. then the next saturday do the same in a different mall. the next saturday in a different mall.

that would cost the economy about a billion dollars.

but they are too dumb to think things through strategically and tactically. most of these guys are simply losers who latch on to jihad to give their worthless lives meaning..

Thats not in the terrorist hand book, its either bombs or planes,trains, and automobiles (they must not like the movie).

If our malls had monkey bars and piles of sand in them maybe they would attack them?? Beyond that they just don't have the training to cope with a bunch of 13 year olds and having to wait in line at The Gap.

Plus there really all a bunch of pusses, unless they kill themselves there not getting the virgins, so they don't want an uptight security guard with a gun fixation (you know the type) taking them out.

[Larry]

Interesting observation (the two Trade Center and the Oklahoma attacks notwithstanding). They could do a lot less and have the same sort of impact. Admittedly, a smaller attack (blowing up a Starbucks) is going to have a much lower impact in the immediate area, but across the country it's going to create ample amounts of disruptive fear.

Oh, I've heard (and agreed with) people observing for years that if the terrorists really wanted to get America's attention, they'd masacre everybody in some Wal-Mart in Omaha.

Oh, well. Here's to stupid enemies.

[Air Force Cane]

think about it if Al Qaeda were as smart as some think they could send guys to Guatemala, have them take the train through Mexico, walk across our open borders, buy some guns from an inner city criminal, and start mayhem across the country.

but AQ really does not know much about America while they are hiding in caves in pakistan. to know your enemy is to be able to destroy them, and they don't really have a grasp about how our society functions.

[Popeman38]

think about it if Al Qaeda were as smart as some think they could send guys to Guatemala, have them take the train through Mexico, walk across our open borders, buy some guns from an inner city criminal, and start mayhem across the country. but AQ really does not know much about America while they are hiding in caves in pakistan. to know your enemy is to be able to destroy them, and they don't really have a grasp about how our society functions.

AFC,

I agree with a lot of what you have to say on this board. But to say Al Qqeda doesn't study us is absurd. They sent guys to this country who managed to get in, get IDs, live here without drawing too much attention to themselves, take flight lessons, get on an airplane while blending in to Joe and Jane Public, and pulll off the largest terrorist attack in US history. And there were 4 teams of them.

These people are sophisticated and educated. Well read and indoctrinated. That is precisely why they are so dangerous. These knuckleheads they use in Iraq are not the same that they would use here in the US. Much easier to blend in in Iraq (a ME man in the ME) than here.

[Ghost of]

I'm very glad that they caught them too, but Timothy McVay was a Christian and he wouldn't have matched any profile that exists. He was also a vet from Gulf War 1.

Exception to the rule? Maybe.

You're so predictable it's annoying.

McVeigh (spell it right first) wasn't a Christian, he was an avowed atheist who believed in a secular ideology. None of what he did was motivated by religion. The one thing McVeigh was at the end of his days was pretty forthright when discussing his views and motivations.

It's a popular ploy to distract by talking about McVeigh as if there are these legions of Christian terrorists out there but even in that case, he was engaging in an act of vengeance against that particular ATF office that was involved with Waco.

McVeigh and a few others committing acts of evil is not some kind of evidence that there's a strain of orthodox Christianity that's violent. You're comparing a wart with a cancer. And what I don't like is that your transparent attempts are so transparently disingenuous. It's a glib diversionary tactic on your part, not a logical or intelligent argument. Well, it's that or some lame kind of moral equivalence. Let's hope you're not one of those nitwits who is more afraid to feel or observe something that isn't politically correct than they are of getting their head sawed off. :doh:

As for the "Black Muslim" thing, that's because they may have had some connections to NoI, which is a heretic sect of Islam (it's creation myth is ridiculous and not at all linked to orthodox Islam.) However, it is the anti-Western/anti-white/anti-Jewish tendencies in NoI and similar groups that would allow a "Black Muslim" to find some common ground with a jihadist mentality. Same thing with the Beltway Snipers, it's why they could seemingly quote 5 percenter terminology while also engaging in jihad. And Muhammad was a Gulf War Vet also. Not sure what your point is on that one. The guy who threw a grenade in the officers' tent was a Muslim American soldier. So?

Are you trying to say our 'profiling' is so simple that we would exclude former military? Did you even watch coverage of the Beltway shootings? :doh:

[Shallow1]

I only was commenting on the "black muslim thing" in refrence to the medias coverage and how they were making that very association to "radical muslim terrorists". I would think Farakan would be having a press confrence on the steps of Ted Turners house calling for Anderson Coopers head about how CNN has insulted black muslims everywhere and owes them an explination and a million dollars each??

[Jumbo]

Ghost, I happen to know from a directly involved source that you're worng in your comments about McVeigh's religious beliefs. And I almost never use this (or most any standard internet site) as a source, but its the easiest way right now to show this and the info given is valid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

Not that I don't agree with much of the tone in your post.

What's weird now is there's a lot of reports rolling out from friends & family that these guys were Chrsitians and part of a devout "Christian prayer-group." :doh: That's really believable .

Another "un-named expert investigator" theorized/suggested that given the background picture he feels is unfolding they were "scammming" the "Al Quieda contact" for $$$, clothes, and equipment. NOT to use for any terrosrist activity but "just cuz they wanted the stuff." While that's typically stupid enough of humans to be true, to me it wouldn't matter. If you're not a government agent and you're dumb enough in these times to "con" an Al Quieda agent and act like you're co-operating, then you should get the same treament as someone doing it for real.

BTW, ghost, you and I are hearing a lot on talk radio around here about the local kid who's one of the marines being charged with murder on that civilian in Iraq, but none of the articles are showing up in the forum. That's some interesting stuff, I'm surprised no ones got a thread going, but I ain't volunteering.

I bring it up also because I'm struck with the commonality of how families regaularly rush forth in such situations whether marine, terrorist, or serial killer, and without waiting to find out if there's any evidence say "but our ----- is a wonderful human being and could never do such a thing." I guess sometimes they have to be right. Me, I'm pretty familair with the fact that "wonderful people" can also kill out of anger, bigotry, jealously, fear, and hatred.

[Ghost of]

I would think Farakan would be having a press confrence on the steps of Ted Turners house calling for Anderson Coopers head about how CNN has insulted black muslims everywhere and owes them an explination and a million dollars each??

Well, there's NoI and then there's SEVERAL offshoots that are not directly associated with NoI. So it's not an insult nor is it inaccurate.

As I explained, the anti-white/anti-Semitic nature of the NoI and all its offshoots lends itself very easily to synergy with Islamist terrorists.

What do you think John Allen MUHAMMAD was talking about in his bizarre writings? Probably no one here has heard of the Zebra killers who murdered, I think, 70 people for being white in California. They were true "black Muslim" believers. It was a fusion of the goals of global jihad and race hatred. For many blacks, the entire conversion to Islam is based in race consciousness, anyways, so though it's a heretical Western innovation, the NoI and all its derivatives makes for easy switch to jihadism.

[Jumbo]

I remember ther Zebra killings well. I was 18 and was voting in my first presidential election that year. Those were very serious, very tense times in this country. Moreso than even now, IMO.

[Ghost of]

Ghost, I happen to know from a directly involved source that you're worng in your comments about McVeigh's religious beliefs.

Hmm, thanks for understanding what I was getting at in my post, even though I was apparently wrong. Allow me to weasel a little bit and say that while I had heard he was a Catholic, from my understanding he was a 'lapsed' Catholic at the time he planned and carried out the bombing.

The article does talk about him receiving the sacrament but I think that could be someone who is at the end of his life wanting to, in some way, make peace with that and re-embracing his former religion. In any case, I still hold that his religious beliefs were not very defined (and they couldn't be the Christian Identity type because he took Catholic sacrament, those people hate Catholics) and did not underpin his actions or political ideology.

But I was wrong on that fact, so that's my mistake.

[ironmic]

"part of a radical Black Muslim group " I hears Anderson Cooper of CNN say this last night as well? Why not just call them a "radical Muslim Group" why say the color "black" when refering to this "radical Muslim" group???

Some would say that CNN and NBC were profiling or being racist with that remark???

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: AGREED i thought the same thing but you know some people just don't see that water is wet

[Ghost of]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: AGREED i thought the same thing but you know some people just don't see that water is wet

:doh: Please read above. "Black Muslim" means something specific and you would THINK any person who knows anything about hip hop or whose been around black people would KNOW that (especially, any black person.)

But I guess we were wrong.

That's why I posted that hip hop and Five Percent Nation thing that no one commented on, really.

[waterwagen]

I'm very glad that they caught them too, but Timothy McVay was a Christian and he wouldn't have matched any profile that exists. He was also a vet from Gulf War 1.

Exception to the rule? Maybe.

You're REALLY not sure of the answer to that question? Seriously?

[Air Force Cane]

the first generation of Al Qaeda were fairly cunning and had great experience in Western Society. This included Mohammed Atta and the teams from the 1990s.

at this stage five years since 9/11, we have pretty much wiped out that generation.

we are in the next generation now, which encompass indigenous and local nationals who are loosely affiliated with each other and AQ Global. that is why so many of them are rolled up and why their ops are rather unsophisticated. Nearly every week a group of these guys are captured or killed somewhere in the world.

just today 6 of them were killed in a shootout in Saudi Arabia.

John Kerry might wet his pants worrying about Bin Laden, but our bigger problem is in Teheran and Pyongyang..

[Brown 43]

Georgie, keep tappin those phone lines! Great job!

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

[webnarc]

You're so predictable it's annoying.

That's rather rude. I haven't been rude to you for a long time.

McVeigh (spell it right first) wasn't a Christian, he was an avowed atheist who believed in a secular ideology. None of what he did was motivated by religion. The one thing McVeigh was at the end of his days was pretty forthright when discussing his views and motivations.

Well, I'd rather spell his name wrong than get the facts wrong .

It's a popular ploy to distract by talking about McVeigh as if there are these legions of Christian terrorists out there but even in that case, he was engaging in an act of vengeance against that particular ATF office that was involved with Waco.

The way I read it in the Rolling Stone interview, he was also very angry about the first gulf war. I think he just hated government.

McVeigh and a few others committing acts of evil is not some kind of evidence that there's a strain of orthodox Christianity that's violent. You're comparing a wart with a cancer. And what I don't like is that your transparent attempts are so transparently disingenuous.

The use of the word "disingenuous" is very ironic in your post.

It's a glib diversionary tactic on your part, not a logical or intelligent argument. Well, it's that or some lame kind of moral equivalence. Let's hope you're not one of those nitwits who is more afraid to feel or observe something that isn't politically correct than they are of getting their head sawed off. :doh:

Please stop being narrow minded. I'm from Ireland and I've seen the impact of the Christian terrorists over there. It may be a stretch for you to stop being rude and to consider other points of view but I know you have the cognitive ability to do so. The efforts of the British army to profile IRA members resulted in a lot of wrongful imprisonments with isn't democratic or ethical.

I don't spend anytime in war zones so my head isn't likely to be cut off. What good does bringing that up do for Nick Berg's memory? It's kind of shameful of you to trivialize that to *win* a message board discussion.

As for the "Black Muslim" thing, that's because they may have had some connections to NoI, which is a heretic sect of Islam (it's creation myth is ridiculous and not at all linked to orthodox Islam.) However, it is the anti-Western/anti-white/anti-Jewish tendencies in NoI and similar groups that would allow a "Black Muslim" to find some common ground with a jihadist mentality. Same thing with the Beltway Snipers, it's why they could seemingly quote 5 percenter terminology while also engaging in jihad. And Muhammad was a Gulf War Vet also. Not sure what your point is on that one. The guy who threw a grenade in the officers' tent was a Muslim American soldier. So?

I didn't say anything about the "Black Muslim" thing, so I'm not sure how what you said relates to what I said, but I agree with you on many of the points.

Are you trying to say our 'profiling' is so simple that we would exclude former military? Did you even watch coverage of the Beltway shootings? :doh:

Reread what I said. You're putting a lot of words into my mouth, and I don't think you are being fair. I don't think you made a genuine attempt to understand what I wrote. I think your post has some flaws based off of the inaccurate assumption that he was an atheist.

[Prosperity]

According to CAIR they are not Muslims

http://www.cair.com/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=2196&theType=NR

[rincewind]

According to the below link, McVeigh was agnostic...

http://www.tektonics.org/guest/mcveigh.htm