The Giants are loaded.......

[InTikiITrust]

Considering Moss, unless he performs above and beyond all of our expectations, is the #3...he could start off hot, considering he won't see much on the field and won't be asked to do much. But he could, as he has talent.

Oh, and as for Eli's arm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY5POA4lp8Y&search=eli%20manning

Imagine a guy that could catch that...and you got Sinorice Moss.

[Birdlives]

Considering Moss, unless he performs above and beyond all of our expectations, is the #3...he could start off hot, considering he won't see much on the field and won't be asked to do much. But he could, as he has talent.

Oh, and as for Eli's arm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY5POA4lp8Y&search=eli%20manning

Imagine a guy that could catch that...and you got Sinorice Moss.

For your video, yeah, even the sun shines on a dog's @$$ every now and then. Sinorice Moss a deep threat rookie year? Please stop. There are way too many other aspects of the giants that are debatable. Sinorice Moss catching 60 yard bombs ain't one of them. Really though, you don't address a single point I've made about this topic but you expect me to engage you in this conversation. Your point of view is like a broken record. Sinorice Moss was passed over by every team in the NFL including the giants, but he's going to stretch the field by coming out of the gate hot and break out.

[Tom [Giants fan]]

I am being very realistic. I don't expect Moss to come out and light it up his first year. He probably will contribute some but he is not going to be an All Pro. If Tim Carter can stay, the Giants will have two legitimate deep threats. And it will give Moss some leeway in learning the first year on the job. If Carter is on IR again by game two, Moss will be asked to be the number 3 with higher expectations right away. The only reason he could produce is because the Giants have enough weapons where he could get some openings. But I'm not counting on anything.

[thespaniard]

You express a good theory but what do you have in your arsenal to "back it up"

Who are you refering to?. Check it out !, the giants are getting old and Eli hasn't gotten the job done yet neither has his brother Peyton or his father Archie. Maybe it's in the "blood-line" !!!!!!

You act like Eli is the only young good player on that team . First of all, Eli will have a better year this year, don't forget last year was only his first full season. He will cut down on the mistakes and continue to improve. His "blood-line" guarantees at least that much. As for the other players in my 'arsenal,' how bout:

Plaxico Burress, 28

Brandon Jacobs, 23

William Joseph, 26

Kareem McKenzie, 27

Antonio Pierce, 27

Jeremy Shockey, 25

Osi Umenyiora, 24

Cory Webster, 24

R.W. McQuarters, 29

Lavar Arrington, 27

All these players (including Eli) are 29 or younger and are big contributors. Most of them are starters.

[Tom [Giants fan]]

For the theory that the Giants are getting old....

The Giants have 12 players on their roster who are 30 or older. Of those 12, 2 are the punter and kicker. One is Bob Whitfield who is only depth at OL. Carlos Emmons is another but his replacement is already in a Giants uniform. Rob Johnson who is just a backup QB and may not even be the primary backup with the way Lorenzen has been playing in OTA's and minicamps. Ryan Keuhl the long snapper. Grey Rugameur who is a backup G if he even makes the team.

The players who are 30 or older that are important starters are; Tiki Barber, Michael Strahan, Luke Petitgout, Sam Madison, and Amani Toomer. We are looking at five important players at or above the age of 30. This is hardly getting old. And as great and valuable as Strahan is, they have two guys to groom for when he leaves in Tuck and Kiwi. Toomer has been effective but declining and now they have Moss to eventually replace him. Petitgout is replaceable as he has never been an elite OT. Madison has a couple of effective years left and hopefully they will have someone to fill his shoes by that time.

The biggest problem seems to be replacing Barber in two years. I'm not sure if Brandon Jacobs will be an every down back, that remains to be seen.

I would say the Giants are far from old. They have a couple of areas that will need to be addressed in the next couple of years like RB and CB but that is about it.

[InTikiITrust]

For your video, yeah, even the sun shines on a dog's @$$ every now and then. Sinorice Moss a deep threat rookie year? Please stop. There are way too many other aspects of the giants that are debatable. Sinorice Moss catching 60 yard bombs ain't one of them. Really though, you don't address a single point I've made about this topic but you expect me to engage you in this conversation. Your point of view is like a broken record. Sinorice Moss was passed over by every team in the NFL including the giants, but he's going to stretch the field by coming out of the gate hot and break out.

Hey, you said anything is possible.

Once again, Moss can use his speed to stretch the field and you have to be a moron to think that Tom Coughlin won't draw up plays for Moss downfield.

If Moss has 3 catches over 20 yards, he'll have more than Tim Carter did all of last year.

Calling Tim Carter a legit deep threat is like calling Madonna a virgin...it just isn't true.

[Mister Happy]

']From Vic Carucci....

"For what this is worth to the New York Giants and their fans' date=' I continually hear observers around the league describing the team as being "loaded." I think that's an accurate assessment of their defensive front seven, and that their passing game could take a big step forward with the addition of rookie deep threat Sinorice Moss. But with questions at other positions, including quarterback, I still don't know whether it will be enough to allow them to win what could be the most balanced and competitive division in the league."

[url']http://www.nfl.com/news/story/9517038[/url]

"The Giants are loaded" is one point from the article.

Other points include:

- The Giants have questions at QB, among other positions.

- The Giants might not have enough to allow them to win the division.

I'd prefer to focus on those instead.

[Mister Happy]

If I were a redskins fan I would worry more that Brunell will go back to his 2004 form and the skins will go back to scoring 7 points a game.

Yes, we should worry about going back to 2 years ago when we had Coles, Gardner and Raymer.

[Birdlives]

Hey, you said anything is possible.

Once again, Moss can use his speed to stretch the field and you have to be a moron to think that Tom Coughlin won't draw up plays for Moss downfield.

If Moss has 3 catches over 20 yards, he'll have more than Tim Carter did all of last year.

Calling Tim Carter a legit deep threat is like calling Madonna a virgin...it just isn't true.

And you just don't seem to get that Sinorice Moss having 3 catches over 20 yards through the whole YEAR is about wht I'd expect if I were you.

[InTikiITrust]

And you just don't seem to get that Sinorice Moss having 3 catches over 20 yards through the whole YEAR is about wht I'd expect if I were you.

How can you back that up? It's not like he'll ride the bench the entire year, the guy has talent and speed. Can't teach either of those right?

[thespaniard]

Hate to burst your bubble, but history proves other wise. Just like Curtis Martin, Many Backs have had great seasons then they hit the Wall (usually at the 30 plateau) the next season they are average at best. While I think Tiki will break a 1000, he won't carry the offense again, and will come way short of last seasons production. When a RB hits the wall the drop is dramatic, and almost never comes close to reaching the same level again.

Some examples of last thousand yard season, and the drop off the next season

Eric Dickerson

1311 yards the next season 677 yards

Tony Dorsett

1307 yards the next season 748 yards

Earl Campbell,

1301 yards the next season 190 yards

Walter Payton

1333 yards the next season 533 yards

John Riggins

1239 yards the next season 677 yards

Thurman Thomas

1033 yards the next season 643 yards

O.J. Simpson

1503 yards the next season 557 yards

Terrell Davis

2008 yards the next season 211 yards

Just some random samples, of Top backs on mostly good teams who played near or well after age 30.

Most hit the wall at 30-31 or younger, though Walter Payton dropped at 32, Riggins 34... the only top RB I found whose yardage slipped down gradual was Emmit Smith.

The only exception I found was Franco Harris who did have one 1000 yards season at 31 (1007) after 3 previous years of under 800, but after the 1000, he dropped to under 200 the following year

Stats are fun!!!!

Dan Marino 3497 YDS 23 TD 15 INT 2448 YDS 12 TD 17INT the next (39)

Jim Kelly 3130 YDS 22 TD 13INT 2810 YDS 14 TD 19 INT the next (36)

Rich Gannon 4689 YDS 26 TD 10INT 1274 YDS 6 TD 4 INT the next (37)

Troy Aikman 2964YDS 17TD 12INT 1632 YDS 7TD 14INT the next (34)

Brett Favre 4088YDS 30TD 17INT 3881YDS 20TD 29INT the next(36)

Archie Manning 3716YDS 23TD 20INT 1447YDS 5TD 11INT the next (32)

Randall Cunningham 3704YDS 34TD 10INT 1475YDS 8TD 9INT the next (35)

The QB's age for the 2nd season is what is in parentheses. Brunell will be 36 this season. He is just as likely as Tiki to 'hit the wall.' Actually, considering Brunell's season last year was his only good one in the last 4 years, I'd give the slight edge to Tiki.

[canethang 305]

I don't really understand why everyone thinks Moss will have an immediate impact. He won't. Mark my words -- it will be at the earliest year 2, but most likely year 3 in his career before he makes a profound impact.

He'll be lucky to ever have a impact, he's not his brother and he got drafted on the merit of Smith and Moss' performance last season. 2 year's ago no one would have touched him till the 5th round cause the big receiver's were in vogue. And for the record I am obviously a 'Canes fan and am not bashing him cause he play's for a rival.

[Birdlives]

How can you back that up? It's not like he'll ride the bench the entire year, the guy has talent and speed. Can't teach either of those right?

I've already backed that up. Why don't you back up what you're saying? You've said it a dozen times and seem to think that makes it true.

[Birdlives]

Stats are fun!!!!

The QB's age for the 2nd season is what is in parentheses. Brunell will be 36 this season. He is just as likely as Tiki to 'hit the wall.' Actually, considering Brunell's season last year was his only good one in the last 4 years, I'd give the slight edge to Tiki.

Actually Brunell was injured in 2003, played poorly in 2004, his first year ever not playing the WCO and under Joe Gibbs, so he's really only had two bad seasons in the past three. In 2002 he played 15 games and had 2,788 with 17td and 7 int.

Stats are particularly fun when you pick and choose!

Chris Chandler (36 yrs old) 2,847 16td, 14int

Len Dawson (36 yrs old) 2,504 15 td, 13 int

Steve DeBerg (36 yrs old) 3,444 23 td, 4 int

Elway (36) 3,328 26 td 14 int

Moon (36) 2,521 18td, 12 int

Marino (36) 3,780 16 td, 11 int

Phil Simms (36) 2,284 15td, 4 int

Bobby Hebert (36) 3,152 22 td 25 int

Brad Johnson (36) 1,885 12 td 4 int

Staubach (36) 3,190 25 td, 16 int

Tarkington (36) 2,961 17 td, 8 int

Steve Young (36) 3,029 19td, 6 int

Dave Kreig (36) 1,629 14 td, 3 int

My personal favorites:

Billy Kilmer 2,440 23 td and 16 ints at 36 yrs old

Sonny Jurgenson 2,354 23 tds, 10 ints at 36 yrs old

Not every one of the guys I listed are hall of famers so no excuses really.

So, how many RB's can you find that were 31 and took it to the house? Consider your spin busted for what it really is, pure spin.

[thespaniard]

Actually Brunell was injured in 2003, played poorly in 2004, his first year ever not playing the WCO and under Joe Gibbs, so he's really only had two bad seasons in the past three. In 2002 he played 15 games and had 2,788 with 17td and 7 int.

Stats are particularly fun when you pick and choose!

Chris Chandler (36 yrs old) 2,847 16td, 14int

Len Dawson (36 yrs old) 2,504 15 td, 13 int

Steve DeBerg (36 yrs old) 3,444 23 td, 4 int

Elway (36) 3,328 26 td 14 int

Moon (36) 2,521 18td, 12 int

Marino (36) 3,780 16 td, 11 int

Phil Simms (36) 2,284 15td, 4 int

Bobby Hebert (36) 3,152 22 td 25 int

Brad Johnson (36) 1,885 12 td 4 int

Staubach (36) 3,190 25 td, 16 int

Tarkington (36) 2,961 17 td, 8 int

Steve Young (36) 3,029 19td, 6 int

Dave Kreig (36) 1,629 14 td, 3 int

My personal favorites:

Billy Kilmer 2,440 23 td and 16 ints at 36 yrs old

Sonny Jurgenson 2,354 23 tds, 10 ints at 36 yrs old

Not every one of the guys I listed are hall of famers so no excuses really.

So, how many RB's can you find that were 31 and took it to the house? Consider your spin busted for what it really is, pure spin.

I wasn't looking for excuses for why Brunell sucked the last 4 years. His last good season was 2002, which was 4 years ago, regardless of whatever excuses you can come up with. He was injured for almost all of 2003? Even more of a reason he will hit a wall soon.

RBs over 31 who 'took it to the house:'

Curtis Martin 1697YDS 12TDs (31)

Franco Harris 1007YDS 5TDs (33)

Emmitt Smith 1203YDS 9TDs (31)

Tony Dorsett 1307 7 TDs (31)

Rickey Watters 1242 7TDs (31)

Ottis Anderson 1023 14TDs (32)

John Henry Johnson 1048YDS 7TDs (35)

Walter Payton 1333YDS 8TDs (32)

John Riggins 1239YDS 14TDs (34)

James Stewart 1021YDS 4TDs (31)

Wheeeeee!!!! spin spin spin!!!

Face it, the truth is that a 31 yr old RB is just as likely to hit the wall as a 36 yr old QB. Given the fact that Barber has gotten consistently better each year the past 3 or so years, and Brunell had his only good season in the last four years last year (I know, that can all be explained away if i put on the B&G glasses), I'm inclined to say Brunell is slightly more likely to hit the wall.

Since you like my spin so much, enjoy turning these ones around on me:

Tiki Barbers last 4 seasons:

2002 nyg | 16 | 303 1386 4.6 11 | 69 597 8.7 0 |

| 2003 nyg | 16 | 278 1216 4.4 2 | 69 461 6.7 1 |

| 2004 nyg | 16 | 322 1518 4.7 13 | 52 578 11.1 2 |

| 2005 nyg | 16 | 357 1860 5.2 9 | 54 530 9.8 2 |

good stuff, steady improvement, no signs of decline

Mark Brunell:

| 2002 jax | 15 | 245 416 58.9 2788 6.7 17 7 | 43 207 0 |

| 2003 jax | 3 | 54 82 65.9 484 5.9 2 0 | 8 19 1 |

| 2004 was | 9 | 118 237 49.8 1194 5.0 7 6 | 19 62 0 |

| 2005 was | 16 | 262 454 57.7 3050 6.7 23 10 | 42 111 0 |

decent season in 2002 (although a huge dropoff from the years before 2002), two bad seasons, and one great season last year. Which of the two is most likely the aberration? Barber steadily improves, while Brunells great season last year seems like a statistical anomaly compared to his decline from 2002-2005. Which of the two is more likely to 'come back down to earth' this year? Take the glasses off and you will see..

[InTikiITrust]

Two bad seasons? Check out his 2004 stats...I believe he outperformed Clinton Portis, but thats only without the blinders on.

[No_Pressure]

Cant both the 1500+ yard backs be talented and everyone can sit back and relax?

[tr1]

The Giants would be a lot scarier if they had a good coach.

[bubba9497]

RBs over 31 who 'took it to the house:'

Wheeeeee!!!! spin spin spin!!!

Face it, the truth is that a 31 yr old RB is just as likely to hit the wall as a 36 yr old QB. Given the fact that Barber has gotten consistently better each year the past 3 or so years, and Brunell had his only good season in the last four years last year (I know, that can all be explained away if i put on the B&G glasses), I'm inclined to say Brunell is slightly more likely to hit the wall.

Since you like my spin so much, enjoy turning these ones around on me:

Tiki Barbers last 4 seasons:

2002 nyg | 16 | 303 1386 4.6 11 | 69 597 8.7 0 |

| 2003 nyg | 16 | 278 1216 4.4 2 | 69 461 6.7 1 |

| 2004 nyg | 16 | 322 1518 4.7 13 | 52 578 11.1 2 |

| 2005 nyg | 16 | 357 1860 5.2 9 | 54 530 9.8 2 |

good stuff, steady improvement, no signs of decline

good stats, except you failed to show the drop off the following season of these 31 plus RB's. When the RB falls.... he falls hard. almost all never came close to 1000 yard mark again

Curtis Martin 735 5TD

Franco Harris 170 Yards 0 TD

Emmitt Smith 975 Yards 5 TD, 256 Yards 2 TD, 937 Yards 9 TD

Tony Dorsett 748 Yards 5 TD, 456 Yards 1 TD, 703 Yards 5 TD

Rickey Watters 318 Yards 1 TD

Ottis Anderson 784 Yards 11 TD, 141 Yards 1 TD, 31 Yards 0 TD

John Henry Johnson 11 Yards 0 TD, 226 3 TD

Walter Payton 533 Yards 4 TD

John Riggins 677 Yards 8 TD

James Stewart 0 Yards 0 TD *Out of Football

Only Smith came close to another 1000 yards again, and most of the backs who topped 1000 after 31 where big bruisers, not small scat backs. Several of those backs you listed had progressively better seasons up to the fall off.

Two since Riggins was the oldest back to break 1000 at age 34... the chances of anyone making it to age 36 is minute.

[thespaniard]

good stats, except you failed to show the drop off the following season of these 31 plus RB's. When the RB falls.... he falls hard. almost all never came close to 1000 yard mark again

Curtis Martin 735 5TD

Franco Harris 170 Yards 0 TD

Emmitt Smith 975 Yards 5 TD, 256 Yards 2 TD, 937 Yards 9 TD

Tony Dorsett 748 Yards 5 TD, 456 Yards 1 TD, 703 Yards 5 TD

Rickey Watters 318 Yards 1 TD

Ottis Anderson 784 Yards 11 TD, 141 Yards 1 TD, 31 Yards 0 TD

John Henry Johnson 11 Yards 0 TD, 226 3 TD

Walter Payton 533 Yards 4 TD

John Riggins 677 Yards 8 TD

James Stewart 0 Yards 0 TD *Out of Football

Only Smith came close to another 1000 yards again, and most of the backs who topped 1000 after 31 where big bruisers, not small scat backs. Several of those backs you listed had progressively better seasons up to the fall off.

Two since Riggins was the oldest back to break 1000 at age 34... the chances of anyone making it to age 36 is minute.

who says he has to make it to 36? we were talking about what Tiki would do THIS YEAR. Tiki will be 31 THIS SEASON, which has been beaten into the ground now that many backs have success at 31. After that, who knows? I make no claims saying that Tiki will be good AFTER 31, because that is not until the 2007 season. Way to show the drop off when these players are 32 and older. Completely irrelevant.

[bubba9497]

Stats are fun!!!!

The QB's age for the 2nd season is what is in parentheses. Brunell will be 36 this season. He is just as likely as Tiki to 'hit the wall.' Actually, considering Brunell's season last year was his only good one in the last 4 years, I'd give the slight edge to Tiki.

Yes stats are fun, but in the hands of an amateur they can be a bad thing. as you have shown. :laugh:

see the point is stats are a tool to use to prove or disprove a point. BUT you must have a "point" first however. See my original point to to disprove Toms point that it was likely Tiki would gradually decline as he aged, but in reality Most starting RB drop in the level of ability quite rapidly, and I listed many of the BEST RB in the NFL to prove my point. the only exception was Emmitt Smith.. a power back.

Then I tried to explain logically why Brunell in theory should be able to last longer than Tiki at his present level of play, based on the skills needed, to play each one's position... but if that was too hard to understand...

Maybe I should explain in simpler terms.

find the answer to these questions, and maybe you will see my point.

1. How many QB started in a Super bowl at age 35 or older, compared to how many RB started in one, over age 30?

2. What's the average years of a career of both positions?

3. How Many RB's are currently starting in the NFL over age 30 compared to QB's over age 34.

4. You've already shown the number of RB who've broke the 1000 yard mark at age 31 and older, now find all the QB's in the modern era, who have topped 3000 yards passing at age 35 or older

5. Find the percentage of drop off from all QB 35 and older from their last 3000 yard season to the one directly after

you'll see some pretty impressive numbers when compared to other positions like RB.

See in the NFL to be a starting RB one must be a freak of nature, and be a supreme athlete, but once he loses even the slightly bit of speed, or power... he will understand why football is called a game of "inches"

However QB, guys like Bernie Koshar, Billy Kilmer, Sonny J, Drew Bledsoe you don't rely solely on your athletic ability, and outside of of a strong (better than average) throwing arm, and sturdy legs to hold you up... not much else on the body is needed..... except the mind.. unlike RB where the slightest sign of diminishing ability means a soon end of your career, QB can compensate for diminishing skills physically easier and longer with experience than RB.

When someone asked a question about the future holds... all the resources available to you is the past to make an intelligent guess, you just have to find the best facts related to the question.

[Birdlives]

I wasn't looking for excuses for why Brunell sucked the last 4 years. His last good season was 2002, which was 4 years ago, regardless of whatever excuses you can come up with. He was injured for almost all of 2003? Even more of a reason he will hit a wall soon.

Um, yeah, he's played 3 seasons since then one of which was last years great performance. As I have shown, by stating it was four seasons ago you are including 2006 which hasn't happened yet. For the kiddies out there, this is the definition of spin. Altering the facts to meet a needed truth to prove a point. The reality is that Mark Brunell has had 2 good seasons in the last four.

Face it, the truth is that a 31 yr old RB is just as likely to hit the wall as a 36 yr old QB. Given the fact that Barber has gotten consistently better each year the past 3 or so years, and Brunell had his only good season in the last four years last year (I know, that can all be explained away if i put on the B&G glasses), I'm inclined to say Brunell is slightly more likely to hit the wall.

And you proceed to prove your point by pulling 10 RB's out and showing successful seasons after the age of 30, 9 of which are Hall of Famers. Problems with the way you did this? There are a few.

1. I pulled 15 QB's and used only their seasons from there 36th year. Many of those guys, in particular the Hall of Famers had other good seasons after the age of 31 and even after the age of 36. I even pulled numbers from guys who will never be the Hall guaranteed just to show you it's not just the best of the best, it's also good QB's who can have great seasons after the age of 35.

2. Meanwhile, even though you had all night to do so, you could only find 10 RB's who had great seasons after the age of 31. That speaks to the fact that there were more QB's who did well into there 30's than RB's. Thanks for proving my point for me.

Bottom line, Tiki is actually less likely to be successful after 31 than Brunell is after 36. This of course assumes both stay healthy all season long, but you get the point I'm sure.

Brunells great season last year seems like a statistical anomaly compared to his decline from 2002-2005. Which of the two is more likely to 'come back down to earth' this year? Take the glasses off and you will see.

Again, this is the actual spin. Brunell had a good season in 2002 and a near pro-bowl season in 2005, so to say he declined from 2002-2005 is completely inaccurate.

Combine this with the fact that Tiki touched the ball over 400 times for his team virtually carrying his offense, and the decline of even the best RB's after such a season and you and your theories would be dead wrong. As for the glasses, I've noticed this along with the name calling is always the way people go around here when they've been backed into a corner.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

We had the 3rd most penalties in the NFL (mostly on the O-line who all played together for the first time last year) and we still had a top 5 offense.

I am only going to comment on this since it's football-related.

You were a top-5 offense IN PART BECAUSE you were 3rd in penalties. The rankings are based on yards gained (not yards minus penalty yards). So, when you are backing yourself up with penalties, you give yourself many more opportunities to gain meaningless yardage.

For example, if you gain 5 yards on first down, 3 yards on second down, get a holding penalty on third down and then gain 10 yards on 3rd and 12, you've gained 18 yards but you're still punting. Therefore, you have the potential to put up impressive yardage numbers with not much to show for it.

[jintz4life]

The thing many of you are overlooking is that Tiki didnt start right away in the league. In his first 5 years he started a total of 32 games. He has only been a starter since 2002. They had the failed Ron Dayne experiment which lessened tiki's load. It is unfair to compare barber to many of the other backs who declined after 30 because most of the other backs started their rookie year. Tiki still has a lot of miles left in him.

[JoeSkins]

I don't really understand why everyone thinks Moss will have an immediate impact. He won't. Mark my words -- it will be at the earliest year 2, but most likely year 3 in his career before he makes a profound impact.

If he matches Santana's production, along with most other WR's, you're right. Sinorice is not above the standard growing pains for a wideout.