Sarge Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Nah, illegals don't cost us anything Why, what they give back to the community more than makes up for this http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/3977695.html County's cost for illegal immigrants' care soars Radack: Burden of federal policy 'shouldn't fall on the local taxpayer' By BILL MURPHY Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle The Harris County Hospital District's unreimbursed costs of caring for illegal immigrants approached $100 million last year, a 77 percent increase in three years. "The costs are increasing because the population of undocumented immigrants is increasing and the cost of health care is rising," said hospital district spokesman Bryan McLeod. The unreimbursed costs rose from $55 million in 2002 to $97 million in 2005, the hospital district said in a report released Friday. Last year's figure represented 13 percent of the district's $760 million operating budget. The district treats about 300,000 patients annually, but lacks enough funds and facilities to care for all of the county's uninsured and underinsured residents, estimated to number between 800,000 and 1.2 million, McLeod said. Commissioner Steve Radack, who requested the report on the district's costs of treating undocumented immigrants, said county residents are shouldering a burden created by the federal government. The federal government doesn't prevent illegal immigration, but hardly reimburses local counties where the immigrants most frequently settle and use public health care facilities, he said. "The federal government allows people to come here illegally," Radack said. "Because of that the cost shouldn't fall on the local taxpayer." The district treated more than 57,000 illegal immigrants last year, at a cost of $128 million. The federal and state governments reimbursed about $28 million, and the patients themselves paid about $3 million. Over the past 11 years, the district has paid about $607 million in unreimbursed costs for treating undocumented immigrants. The district does not directly ask patients if they are in the country legally, but infers their status from other information gleaned during patient screenings, officials said. Radack said it would be inhumane for the hospital district to stop providing treatment to illegal immigrants. And untreated infectious illnesses among immigrants might spread to the broader population, he said. "You would create a tremendous health crisis," he said. Under federal law, emergency rooms are required to treat anyone who shows up and needs immediate care. Local emergency rooms often are backed up with patients, including many without health insurance who come to the emergency room as a last resort when they need nonemergency care. Regional health care officials have been strategizing for years on how to move those not needing urgent care to other settings so emergency rooms can treat true emergencies. McLeod said emergency rooms would become even more overburdened if the district stopped treating illegal immigrants in district clinics and hospitals, and they all started showing up at emergency rooms for nonemergency care. bill.murphy@chron.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 You ain't telling me anything new,and it's not only the cost but service in the ER's is terrible with long waits. The unreimbursed expenses have contributed to two hospitals closing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 You ain't telling me anything new,and it's not only the cost but service in the ER's is terrible with long waits.The unreimbursed expenses have contributed to two hospitals closing here. But there are folks here that insist that illegals contribute more than they take. And this is just one county Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Sarge, Those folks live in places that haven't been as inundated by the "invasion". It's a croc that Bush is from Texas and insists there's no problem... Ruling elite doesn't care about people who actually have to work for a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProBowler Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 :no: Well, not that I don't believe the article but it's being completely biased. It never did give you the total amount for cost of treating uninsured legal citizens. The article says it pays 607 million for illegal immigrant's over 11 years. How much did it pay for legal citizens who are uninsured in that time? I'll bet it put's the number above to shame and here's why. It says they treated 57,000 illegal immigrants at a cost of around 100million after being reimbursed by Gov. and payment last year wich is only roughly 17% of the patients they treat annually according to their numbers. Alright that leaves 83% and I'll bet you not much more than 50% are insured if that high, so that leaves about 33% of legal citizens who are uninsured and not paying either wich would cost around 252 million in that same year! The district treated more than 57,000 illegal immigrants last year, at a cost of $128 million. The federal and state governments reimbursed about $28 million, and the patients themselves paid about $3 million. Over the past 11 years, the district has paid about $607 million in unreimbursed costs for treating undocumented immigrants. The bottom line is illegal immigrants aren't ruinning the country. The major corporations wich control the government and this country are doing it all by themselves and will continue to do so until people in this country act like they got some balls and sense to put a stop to this :pooh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Ruling elite doesn't care about people who actually have to work for a living. Actually they do care. They think they should all take a pay cut. (Except for the Ruling Elite.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjcdaman Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 :no: Well, not that I don't believe the article but it's being completely biased. It never did give you the total amount for cost of treating uninsured legal citizens. I see your point, but that is where I disagree. Yes, it costs more to care for uninsured LEGAL citizens. But, the whole point is that they are LEGAL citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 But there are folks here that insist that illegals contribute more than they take. And this is just one county Seems to me there are two halves to the cost-benefit calculation, and this article is missing one of those halves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProBowler Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I see your point, but that is where I disagree. Yes, it costs more to care for uninsured LEGAL citizens. But, the whole point is that they are LEGAL citizens. My point is that there are way to many uninsured legal citizens in this country period. To me it makes no difference if they are legal or not because you would still have the same amount of uninsured legal citzens anyhow and it's continually rising. I personally know people with college degrees who don't have decent jobs not to mention any benefits. Illegal immigrants aren't coming over here and taking the good jobs because there aren't any left. Why do you think every corporation is trying to bulild a factory in some overseas 3rd world country? So they don't have to pay good wages and benefits. That's the American way now days. People thought Pero was crazy but the one thing he pointed out was if we passed NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) all the good jobs in this country would be gone and he was exactly right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterPinstripe Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I see your point, but that is where I disagree. Yes, it costs more to care for uninsured LEGAL citizens. But, the whole point is that they are LEGAL citizens. EXACTLY! :applause: The LEGAL citizens DESERVE that money because they are legal. The illegal ones are not a part of this country, and thus we should not be paying for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Pinstripe, Nuances, nuances, nuances... Obviously they don't contribute enough to keep emergency rooms open in border states, and they don't contribute enough to keep citizens from voting for Prop 187 (California) and Prop 200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 But there are folks here that insist that illegals contribute more than they take. And this is just one county "this is just one county" Well said Sarge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 "this is just one county"Well said Sarge. What's the point really? One poster on this thread is a Vdare reader and another believes American immigration policy should be based on racial composition, in other words United States should stay white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 But there are folks here that insist that illegals contribute more than they take. And this is just one county Of course a guest worker program could correct the health care problem with illegal workers. And they do contribute more than they take. Read this: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions By EDUARDO PORTER Published: April 5, 2005 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ex=1270353600&adxnnl=0&partner=rssuserland&adxnnlx=1150691397-vSR9b/EBbG5yZSPzdAbLaQ STOCKTON, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour. Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez - who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana - contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system. Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits. He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year. While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections. Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide "the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security." It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job. Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions. IRCA, as the immigration act is known, did little to deter employers from hiring illegal immigrants or to discourage them from working. But for Social Security's finances, it was a great piece of legislation. Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to. The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's. In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes. In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages.Social Security officials do not know what fraction of the suspense file corresponds to the earnings of illegal immigrants. But they suspect that the portion is significant. "Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration. Other researchers say illegal immigrants are the main contributors to the suspense file. "Illegal immigrants account for the vast majority of the suspense file," said Nick Theodore, the director of the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago. "Especially its growth over the 1990's, as more and more undocumented immigrants entered the work force." Using data from the Census Bureau's current population survey, Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies, an advocacy group in Washington that favors more limits on immigration, estimated that 3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4 billion in Social Security taxes in 2002. A comparative handful of former illegal immigrant workers who have obtained legal residence have been able to accredit their previous earnings to their new legal Social Security numbers. Mr. Camarota is among those opposed to granting a broad amnesty to illegal immigrants, arguing that, among other things, they might claim Social Security benefits and put further financial stress on the system. The mismatched W-2's fit like a glove on illegal immigrants' known geographic distribution and the patchwork of jobs they typically hold. An audit found that more than half of the 100 employers filing the most earnings reports with false Social Security numbers from 1997 through 2001 came from just three states: California, Texas and Illinois. According to an analysis by the Government Accountability Office, about 17 percent of the businesses with inaccurate W-2's were restaurants, 10 percent were construction companies and 7 percent were farm operations. Most immigration helps Social Security's finances, because new immigrants tend to be of working age and contribute more than they take from the system. A simulation by Social Security's actuaries found that if net immigration ran at 1.3 million a year instead of the 900,000 in their central assumption, the system's 75-year funding gap would narrow to 1.67 percent of total payroll, from 1.92 percent - savings that come out to half a trillion dollars, valued in today's money. Illegal immigrants help even more because they will never collect benefits. According to Mr. Goss, without the flow of payroll taxes from wages in the suspense file, the system's long-term funding hole over 75 years would be 10 percent deeper. Yet to immigrants, the lack of retirement benefits is just part of the package of hardship they took on when they decided to make the trek north. Tying vines in a vineyard some 30 miles north of Stockton, Florencio Tapia, 20, from Guerrero, along Mexico's Pacific coast, has no idea what the money being withheld from his paycheck is for. "I haven't asked," Mr. Tapia said. For illegal immigrants, Social Security numbers are simply a tool needed to work on this side of the border. Retirement does not enter the picture. "There will be a moment when I won't be able to continue working," Mr. Martínez acknowledges. "But that's many years off." Mario Avalos, a naturalized Nicaraguan immigrant who prepares income tax returns for many workers in the area, including immigrants without legal papers, observes that many older workers return home to Mexico. "Among my clients," he said, "I can't recall anybody over 60 without papers." No doubt most illegal immigrants would prefer to avoid Social Security altogether. As part of its efforts to properly assign the growing pile of unassigned wages, Social Security sends about 130,000 letters a year to employers with large numbers of mismatched pay statements. Though not an intended consequence of these so-called no-match letters, in many cases employers who get them dismiss the workers affected. Or the workers - fearing that immigration authorities might be on their trail - just leave. Last February, for instance, discrepancies in Social Security numbers put an end to the job of Minerva Ortega, 25, from Zacatecas, in northern Mexico, who worked in the cheese department at a warehouse for Mike Campbell & Associates, a distributor for Trader Joe's, a popular discount food retailer with a large operation in California. The company asked dozens of workers to prove that they had cleared up or were in the process of clearing up the "discrepancy between the information on our payroll related to your employment and the S.S.A.'s records." Most could not. Ms. Ortega said about 150 workers lost their jobs. In a statement, Mike Campbell said that it did not fire any of the workers, but Robert Camarena, a company official, acknowledged that many left. Ms. Ortega is now looking for work again. She does not want to go back to the fields, so she is holding out for a better-paid factory job. Whatever work she finds, though, she intends to go on the payroll with the same Social Security number she has now, a number that will not jibe with federal records. With this number, she will continue paying taxes. Last year she paid about $1,200 in Social Security taxes, matched by her employer, on an income of $19,000. She will never see the money again, she realizes, but at least she will have a job in the United States. "I don't pay much attention," Ms. Ortega said. "I know I don't get any benefit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 GSF, All fine and dandy until someone steals your SSN and the IRS asks you for back taxes and you get hassled every year come tax-time. Lucky, Who gives a **** what website I read? Does everything come from VDARE... I don't even know the political afflilitation of them other than they agree with my point of view... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 GSF,All fine and dandy until someone steals your SSN and the IRS asks you for back taxes and you get hassled every year come tax-time. True, and yet another reason why we need a guest worker program. Edit: While having your SSN can lead to all kinds of problems, I wonder if owing back taxes would be one of them since many illegals actually over-pay taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I don't even know the political afflilitation of them other than they agree with my point of view... It's pretty damn obvious. The crazy thing is in this past you have conceded the economic argument, but then played the law and order card. Your flip-flopping view on this issue makes one wonder about your true feelings on the matter (especially one who has posted articles from Vdare) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 GSF, Nope... heard stories that the IRS comes back to collect because the income added on will put you in a higher tax bracket. Regardless... the people who want a guest worker program should actually be advocating strict enforcement. Then, those of us not on board will see that our economy needs those workers. If the Left/Right/Middle all said, "You know what... lets enforce the immigration laws strict for 4 years and see what happens" and they all honestly held to that view, it would go a long way in proving a guest worker program is needed or not. lucky, The way I see it, our non-enforcement immigration policy is racist. If we lived next to an African country it would be racist, and if we lived next to a European country it would be racist. People from Southern American have a natural advantage in getting into our country. I'm sick of debating this. Right now enough people are happy with the status quo because something worse won't happen... so I think it'll be that way until 2008. I'm hoping a moderate for the Repubs runs with a non-elite, non-business politician (the anti-Cheney) who agrees with me on immigration. I know we won't be able to get an anti-illegal person in President (due to "racist" smear campaign), so I have to hope for VP. It will remain a flashpoint in 2006 elections... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 People from Southern American have a natural advantage in getting into our country. I buy that, but the solution isn't to deny them entry. Our government should liberalize immigration policy so that people from other countries can get in as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 lucky, The way I see it, our non-enforcement immigration policy is racist. If we lived next to an African country it would be racist, and if we lived next to a European country it would be racist. People from Southern American have a natural advantage in getting into our country. Okay, I challenged you on this 3 months ago:http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2321415&postcount=56 And you never really responded to me. How can you say that our immigration policy is racist yet oppose affirmative action? If you want people to get "fair" opportunities for immigration based on the color of their skin, you're talking about racial quotas. Wouldn't the "colorblind" solution be to provide immigration status to those most willing to pursue it? The geography argument is a red herring, and it's the exact same tactic that race-baiting activists use. Under your logic, you could say that blacks have less opportunity to get into college because geographically, they are located where the schools are not as good. Should we balance things out by letting more blacks in? You could also say that blacks are the target of police racism because geographically, more of them live in the inner city where the police make more arrests. Should we balance things out by sending the police out into the suburbs? Is that what you believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC4 Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 It's okay everyone!!!! Soon the liberals will be in charge and then there will be a BOTTOMLESS PIT of $$$$ to pay for ALL of this and then everything will be okay again :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 lucky, Honestly I'm fed up that our country is flooded by them, yet citizens still will hire them by the curb and don't care that they potentially are draining our government (linked to government spending). It's hurting our health care and public education systems. By them I am referring to illegal Mexicans I see nearly every day all the time in Southern California... I rarely see a day laborer site with Arabs, Africans, Asians, or Europeans (but I suspect there is some % of them illegally here in America). I don't take a hard line on the economic side because I do believe there are some who legitimately come to work hard... although I suspect they might bring daughters who go on to have 5 children which sucks more from pubic welfare... or they bring sons that end up in gangs because both parents have to work 60+ hours a week. There also is a faction (that includes citizens) that is very sympathetic to the Atzlan cause of giving land back to Mexico, or turning the SW United States into virtual Mexico. You could call this point of view "racist" but it is hard to separate "Mexican" from "illegal immigrant"... and when that line gets blurred it's hard to separate "Mexican" from "legal immigrant". I think there is some legitimacy to equating "Mexican" with "illegal immigrant" because the composition of the protest marches was Mexican... and they billed it as "Day without a Mexican" originally, and in Mexico they had "A Day without Gringos" where there were riots against American symbols. I do think there is a serious shortage of low-end labor in America... how many teenagers are willing to do what their parents did 20 years ago... and how many parents don't want their children taking those low-end jobs. All the white kids go to college nowadays... I do think there is going to be a serious shortage in white population in 40 years... that's because white folks are upper-middle class and enjoy being rich more than having a big family (that doesn't mean people enjoy being poor with a big family...)... I however, don't like the idea of propping up businesses with cheap labor. With all these realities, I know it's all driven by the fact that we are America and want to have the largest economy... so in order to compete with China's cheap labor base, we need our own. I'm not sure I agree with this philosophy... but the longer I live in an America that is #1, the longer you'll be able to get me to buy into this philosophy. I also don't like the fact that illegal immigrants don't seem to climb up the economic ladder... it's not that they are stupid... but the average Mexican has an 8th grade education... there are some things such as corruption I don't want to see imported from Mexico... Anyways... I'm sure this makes me a big racist because I actually admit it's hard to separate illegal immigrants from Mexicans... prove to me that's not the truth, at least in SW United States. Mexico deserves some of this perception because they don't make any bones about sending their poor workers. I think Mexican politicians are way too corrupt, thus sending them a bunch of money to "improve economic conditions" there is out of the question. It won't work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 The thing that pisses me off most is that our politicians don't enforce the current law and have created this situation.... it's been festering at the border for awhile, but finally it has national attention. Making immigration "fair" is more than just quotas. The cost of the applications and everything should be adjusted. Are you sure people in Africa and some other poor countries don't want to come because they don't apply, or because they can't afford it? One more thing about this discussion... it's easy to do the abstract thinking, but nothing is ever absolute and black and white. My wife is an immigrant, and right after we got married received a deportation notice, even though she was currently under status. Her situation is still up in the air because DHS red-flagged some type of vehicle registration issue. We constantly used to get into the "so you'd deport me" argument that is helpful to a young marriage... and she thinks I spend way too much time giving a **** about immigration. I feel like in the grand scheme of things she is correct... and in life there's a lot of things more important than legal status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Making immigration "fair" is more than just quotas. The cost of the applications and everything should be adjusted. Are you sure people in Africa and some other poor countries don't want to come because they don't apply, or because they can't afford it?Of course it's because they can't afford it. But I'll ask you this: should we give scholarships to black students because they can't afford it? I just see a major inconsistency between your "racist" argument against immigration and your opposition to affirmative action.One more thing about this discussion... it's easy to do the abstract thinking, but nothing is ever absolute and black and white. My wife is an immigrant, and right after we got married received a deportation notice, even though she was currently under status. Her situation is still up in the air because DHS red-flagged some type of vehicle registration issue. We constantly used to get into the "so you'd deport me" argument that is helpful to a young marriage... and she thinks I spend way too much time giving a **** about immigration. I feel like in the grand scheme of things she is correct... and in life there's a lot of things more important than legal status.This is a great point. When talking to individual immigrants, a vast majority are hardworking people just trying to make a better life for themselves. Unfortunately, they are an easy scapegoat and are easily tossed around as a political football. Instead of actually doing something about health care, national security, or the economy, it will always be easier to say: "It's the immigrant's fault." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I do think there is going to be a serious shortage in white population in 40 years Is this something we should worry about? I also don't like the fact that illegal immigrants don't seem to climb up the economic ladder I can post some studies that point out that this isn't true at all. In fact, they move up on the economic ladder more than natives do. It's another myth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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