Sign in to follow this  
TK

The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

Recommended Posts

Best Wrestlemania I've witnessed. Of course I had a feeling Seth was going to cast-iron, but I didn't think they were going to go through with it. Good call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was at the event and then watched it back on the network when I got home. Crowd seemed louder live than on tv, but I guess sound doesn't capture well in open arenas. The Sting loss was my only gripe with the show. If he was just going to lose anyway, why not have him lose to the Undertaker in the real dream match people were asking for? All in all though, glad I went.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was at the event and then watched it back on the network when I got home. Crowd seemed louder live than on tv, but I guess sound doesn't capture well in open arenas. The Sting loss was my only gripe with the show. If he was just going to lose anyway, why not have him lose to the Undertaker in the real dream match people were asking for? All in all though, glad I went.

That's really cool man.

I still wanna get to a WM before I croak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Overall, I thought it was decent. The one thing that didn't make sense was HHH beating Sting. What was the point of that? I guess HHH was tired of losing at Mania and decided he needed a win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How did undertaker look?

Honestly, he looked better to me lol

People say that he looked old and tired, but he was just selling. Going into the match, I was hoping this was his last one, and I still do, but if/when he does come back, I won't trip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Overall, I thought it was decent. The one thing that didn't make sense was HHH beating Sting. What was the point of that? I guess HHH was tired of losing at Mania and decided he needed a win.

 

I suspected it was some sort of in ring showing that the Monday Night Wars was won by the WWE and put to rest was my guess. Not like we need to be reminded by HHH that happened, think he needs to be reminded that when the wars were going on he was a first match joke getting thrown in pig dung and was nothing during them. Chyna was more over then he ever was in those days but if this is the last we hear about the MNW I can live with it.

 

True story my 12 year old twins said to me "Isn't Sting that guy from TNA" when they saw him. WWE needs to remember that there are fans out there who have no clue what WCW was or even care. Time for them to move on

 

How did undertaker look?

 

Looked great, but clearly past his prime. They hinted he was coming back, I honestly hope not. Would rather see him as an attraction then every week player now

Edited by TexasSkinsFan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Triple H and DX werrre one of the main reasons the Monday Night Wars were won

 

 

I wish you were joking but I'm sure you aren't. Triple H and DX in my mind didn't really do much at all to win the MNW. To determine the influence you have to define when the MNW occurred. To me I think they ran between 1995 and 1998. I know that WCW didn't fold until 2001 but the height of that battle was between those years and after Ultimate Warrior arrived in WCW for a couple weeks in 1998 Nitro didn't win the ratings battle again and fell off a cliff. By the time DX was being run by HHH the war was pretty much over sure WCW still existed but no longer was it even close.

 

DX came to be under HHH leadership after Shawn left the company in April of 1998 but was always playing second fiddle to Shawn in those days before in that group. Before that he was second fiddle to Chyna, and before that Steve Austin and the Undertaker and Mick Foley and even The Rock. Lets be clear, Shawn Michaels is not HHH and was not a prime time player then.

 

In other words my point is that HHH being a main contributor to doing anything significant to win that war is being overstated. He is the last man standing today, holding the book and company in his hands now but when I look at the MNW there is only one moment that I consider HHH to be very involved in that War and it was when he "invaded" WCW in 1998 with the new DX but by then the ratings streak was already back in WWF's hands albit for a brief moment and the war was over. Here is an illustration showing what I mean

 

Monday_night_wars_ratings.gif

 

 

Now if you listen to how they tell the story today HHH was the main reason the WWF won that war, but that's not at all how I see it or remember it. The reasons the WCW lost is numerous, none of them was because of HHH and they are revising history as they see fit now

Edited by TexasSkinsFan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Triple H and DX werrre one of the main reasons the Monday Night Wars were won

 

So says a ton of WWE DVDs over the last ten years - ever since Austin and The Rock figured out how to make a comfortable living without the WWE. I mean, this is going to be the narrative going forward, but it's not the truth any more than the fact that Andre had never been beaten or bodyslammed prior to WMIII is the truth. But whatever.

 

Credit where it is due: WWE pulled a rabbit out of its hat last night and and is really well-positioned going forward. They really flipped the switch to do it. WM is usually the end of one year's worth of storylines, but last night felt like a reboot of some kind.

 

A new champion and two of the biggest stars holding secondary belts is about as a thorough of a slate-cleaning as you can get. And for once, the champion comes out of WM with multiple storyline possibilities. (That has been the main WM problem for years. Dude wins, celebrates....and then what. This goes back to Ultimate Warrior days).

 

Part of me actually wants to see Orton get the first shot now. And I've been down on Orton for years. But you can have Rollins take on any number of dudes and it makes sense.

 

As for HHH-Sting...eh...who cares? I'm still not exactly sure why that match was the match we got so I'm not really invested in a winner. It seems like that should have been a main event during the Invasion angle....so 14 years later....I guess it was for people who were watching then.

 

If you were under 21, I have no idea what that match did for you.

 

DX came to be under HHH leadership after Shawn left the company in April of 1998 but was always playing second fiddle to Shawn in those days before in that group. Before that he was second fiddle to Chyna, and before that Steve Austin and the Undertaker and Mick Foley and even The Rock. Lets be clear, Shawn Michaels is not HHH and was not a prime time player then.

 

 

DX was important, but until about 2000, HHH was the fifth most over member of the group.

 

The most over?

 

Chyna.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish you were joking but I'm sure you aren't. 

 

I assure you, I'm not :)

 

And I said he and DX were one of the main reasons.... Which they were

 

DX didn't become the DX everyone knew and loved until the "DX Army" version, which formed after Michaels left. As good as Shawn Michaels was, when he was at his apex, WWE was struggling. 

 

WWE didn't really start consistently beating WCW in ratings until early 1999, and Triple H was a part of that. I don't know how else to explain it to you, honestly. That is a fact. It isn't up for debate. And as a singles wrestler, he was rising up the ranks, but ultimately flatlined in late spring- early summer '99 (before he began his storied, highly questionable meteoric rise). By then, WCW was a joke. But he absolutely was a key contributor. Anyone who watched wrestling will tell you that.

 

I don't think he was ever s good as his resume suggested, but he was far from a slouch/dead weight/non factor. That is going from one extreme to the other

Edited by Mr. Sinister

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DX was important, but until about 2000, HHH was the fifth most over member of the group.

 

The most over?

 

Chyna.

 

Exactly she was even on the cover of playboy magazine, hard to imagine today but back then the pops the New Aged "Oh you didn't know" Outlaws at the time were more over then HHH was too. In 1998 DX was mired in feuds with the Nation of Domination, Owen Hart, and then the corporation and still was splitting up on TV. History is being rewritten saying HHH was a huge part of that war, he was a part of it but nothing like they are portraying to me.

Edited by TexasSkinsFan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

DX was important, but until about 2000, HHH was the fifth most over member of the group.

 

The most over?

 

Chyna.

 

Here's a version much closer to the actual truth... They were all over. Determining which one was "More over" was just a matter of personal preference.... Everyone had their favorites. Triple H was always the one taking center stage. His "Are you ready" bit was just as popular as the New Age Outlaws'.

 

X-Pac was cool for 6-8 months, before people got tired of him, and realized that he still sucked. That group isn't what it ultimately became, without Triple H

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assure you, I'm not :)

 

And I said he and DX were one of the main reasons.... Which they were

 

DX didn't become the DX everyone knew and loved until the "DX Army" version, which formed after Michaels left. As good as Shawn Michaels was, when he was at his apex, WWE was struggling. 

 

WWE didn't really start consistently beating WCW in ratings until early 1999, and Triple H was a part of that. I don't know how else to explain it to you, honestly. That is a fact. It isn't up for debate. And as a singles wrestler, he was rising up the ranks, but ultimately flatlined in late spring- early summer '99 (before he began his storied, highly questionable meteoric rise). By then, WCW was a joke. But he absolutely was a key contributor. Anyone who watched wrestling will tell you that.

 

I don't think he was ever s good as his resume suggested, but he was far from a slouch/dead weight/non factor. That is going from one extreme to the other

 

Funny you post this after LKB just posted his reply to that. Look if you choose to think that HHH was a main player in the War then I personally would think that Sixx Pac, XPac, the Lightening Kid whatever you want to call him Sean Waltman played more of role in that war then HHH did as did Mike Tyson.

 

People weren't turning into MNR to see what HHH was going to do until he clowned on the Nation of Domination and by that time the bookers at WCW had watered down the NWO so much it was barely watchable, they had no one to bring in to spark a new MNW because ECW was so regional that bringing in the Sandman had no effect that they brought in Jay Leno and Dennis Rodman which was awful, they botched Bret Harts whole career into the company, everyone was sick and tired of Hulk Hogan and the other WWF retreads that ran the show backstage. The WCW killed themselves, they made way more mistakes then HHH gave contribution to it. In fact the only real foot they had to stand on when 1998 began was Goldberg freshness and the young guys like Eddie and Chris B and Chris J that jumped ship soon there after.

 

This was the closing PPV in 1998 Starrcade

 

- Cruiserweight title: Champ Billy Kidman beat Juventud Guerrera & Rey Mysterio Jr.

- Cruiserweight Title: Champ Billy Kidman beat Eddie Guerrero

- Norman Smiley beat Prince Iaukea

- Perry Saturn beat Ernest Miller

- Scott Norton & Brian Adams beat Jerry Flynn & Fit Finlay

- TV Title: Champ Konnan beat Chris Jericho

- Eric Bischoff beat Ric Flair

- WCW Title: Kevin Nash beat Bill Goldberg to win the title

 

 

The MNW was way over by then to me, no one wanted to watch that and that was awful. The contributions that HHH gave to this fight were done mostly in 1999-2000 when he teamed up with Stephanie which is why I said define when the MNW happened. The WWE says they happened between 1995-2001 because it fits a narrative but the facts are what they are. HHH was there, he was a part of it never said he wasn't, but nothing to the degree that he makes it out to be. Funny thing about HHH, always used a woman to raise himself to higher heights in this business.

Edited by TexasSkinsFan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm rather annoyed that we even have to have this conversation. HHH was important in the WWE/WWF for a very long time. And that should be good enough.

 

However, since he is now the 90s superstar who is actually going to be running the entire business for the next 30 years....there is going to be an ongoing effort to make him more important than he was.

 

The stars of the Attitude Era were Austin, Rock, and McMahon. Those are the three that made it memorable.

 

The second tier of stars is Foley, HHH, NAO, UT, Kane, etc. Where HHH fits on that level is a matter of debate.

 

What HHH did is just survive long after that era closed. He's main eventing Wrestlemanias far into the post-attitude era but is usually the guy trying to get the next guy over.

 

It is interesting to me that the one WM where HHH was clearly "the man" is the one where no one remembers his match. WrestleMania XVIII is the Hogan-Rock match, which really should answer the question as to what star power is.

Edited by Lombardi's_kid_brother
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm rather annoyed that we even have to have this conversation. HHH was important in the WWE/WWF for a very long time. And that should be good enough.

 

However, since he is now the 90s superstar who is actually going to be running the entire business for the next 30 years....there is going to be an ongoing effort to make him more important than he was.

 

The stars of the Attitude Era were Austin, Rock, and McMahon. Those are the three that made it memorable.

 

The second tier of stars is Foley, HHH, NAO, UT, Kane, etc. Where HHH fits on that level is a matter of debate.

 

What HHH did is just survive long after that era closed. He's main eventing Wrestlemanias far into the post-attitude era but is usually the guy trying to get the next guy over.

 

It is interesting to me that the one WM where HHH was clearly "the man" is the one where no one remembers his match. WrestleMania XVIII is the Hogan-Rock match, which really should answer the question as to what star power is.

 

completely agree....For a comparision the last PPV the WWF had in 1998 compared to that clustertrash that was Starrcade 1998 was

 

 

Rock Bottom: In Your House - General Motors Place; Vancouver, British Columbia 12/13/1998

- Light Heavyweight Title: Champ Duane Gill beat Matt Hardy

- Kevin Quinn beat Brian Christopher

- Triple H beat Droz

- Tag Team Titles: Champs New Age Outlaws beat The Acolytes by DQ

- Mark Henry & D-Lo Brown beat The Godfather & Val Venis

- The Headbangers beat The Human Oddities

- Steve Blackman beat Owen Hart by count out

- The Brood beat Bob Holly, 2 Cold Scorpio, & Al Snow

- Goldust beat Jeff Jarrett

- Tag Team Titles: Champs New Age Outlaws beat Big Bossman & Ken Shamrock

- WWF Title: Mankind beat Champ the Rock by knocking him out with the Mandible Claw. Since Rock didn't submit Mankind didn't get the title

- Buried Alive: Steve Austin beat The Undertaker

 

 

Now as a lifelong fan of wrestling when I see the closing of 1998 its clear which brand is the one to watch and that's still with HHH was fighting Droz that show!

 

My point is by 1999 the MNW was way over and HHH was a B player in it those years. He just happens to run the company now so can make up any "history" he wants whenever and people like my 12 year old twins will believe it because they don't know any better

Edited by TexasSkinsFan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny you post this after LKB just posted his reply to that. 

 

 

 

What LKB posted was irrelevant (didn't even see it until i submitted my own post). I was responding to you.... Not him.

 

 

Look if you choose to think that HHH was a main player in the War then I personally would think that Sixx Pac, XPac, the Lightening Kid whatever you want to call him Sean Waltman played more of role in that war then HHH did as did Mike Tyson.

 

 

Cool. 

 

If you choose to think I'm saying anything other than what I'm posting in plain text (that you can read over sevral times for clarification), then I really can't help you (actually I can... but I probably won't).

 

 

 

People weren't turning into MNR to see what HHH was going to do until he clowned on the Nation of Domination and by that time the bookers at WCW had watered down the NWO so much it was barely watchable, they had no one to bring in to spark a new MNW 

 

Yet they still beat out WWE for 6 more weeks after that took place. The product may have slipped, but the war was far from over. The ratings said as much

 

 

 

 

The WCW killed themselves, they made way more mistakes then HHH gave contribution to it. In fact the only real foot they had to stand on when 1998 began was Goldberg freshness and the young guys like Eddie and Chris B and Chris J that jumped ship the next year.

 

This was the closing PPV in 1998 Starrcade

 

- Cruiserweight title: Champ Billy Kidman beat Juventud Guerrera & Rey Mysterio Jr.

- Cruiserweight Title: Champ Billy Kidman beat Eddie Guerrero

- Norman Smiley beat Prince Iaukea

- Perry Saturn beat Ernest Miller

- Scott Norton & Brian Adams beat Jerry Flynn & Fit Finlay

- TV Title: Champ Konnan beat Chris Jericho

- Eric Bischoff beat Ric Flair

- WCW Title: Kevin Nash beat Bill Goldberg to win the title

 

 

The MNW was way over by then to me, no one wanted to watch that and that was awful. The contributions that HHH gave to this fight were done mostly in 1999-2000 when he teamed up with Stephanie which is why I said define when they happened. HHH was there, he was a part of it, but nothing to the degree that WWE makes it out to be. Funny thing about HHH, always used a woman to raise himself to higher heights in this business.

 

 

I do agree with the rest of your post though. WCW had the talent to destroy WWE and leave it a smoking crater. Unfortunately, too many egos ultimately caused it to crash and burn. Russo just nuked the crash site.

 

And again, as I said, Triple H basically flamed out n the Corporate Ministry hot mess, before he reinvented himself, attacking The Rock in that coffin with the sledgehammer, and eating roids like M&M's.

I'm rather annoyed that we even have to have this conversation. HHH was important in the WWE/WWF for a very long time. And that should be good enough.

 

 

 

 

That was kind of my point, before this all got wrapped up in semantics and hyperbole, and misrepresentation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to have to agree with LKB and Texas here. They overstate the hell out of HHH (and I'm a mark for psycho ass 99-01 HHH) and it's because he's the last guy standing.

Go watch that HHH vs HBK rivalry doc on the network. It's embarrassing how much they reach.

HHH was great. But he's not the Rock or Austin or even Vince.

WWE will have you believe he was the hottest face in the company in 98. Hell no.

He didn't become complete until 99 when the War was already won. At that point, he was the best heel in the business.

I mean listen to his promos in 98. He was horrific.

Rock used to own him on the mic.

And also, I don't think Trips is purposely doing this re-writing. It's coming from vince and Steph.

I think HHH gets a bad rep

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to have to agree with LKB and Texas here. They overstate the hell out of HHH (and I'm a mark for psycho ass 99-01 HHH) and it's because he's the last guy standing.

Go watch that HHH vs HBK rivalry doc on the network. It's embarrassing how much they reach.

HHH was great. But he's not the Rock or Austin or even Vince.

WWE will have you believe he was the hottest face in the company in 98. Hell no.

He didn't become complete until 99 when the War was already won. At that point, he was the best heel in the business.

I mean listen to his promos in 98. He was horrific.

Rock used to own him on the mic.

 

If thats what you think, then you really aren't agreeing with them...

 

And I agree, he isn't in the class of Rock and Austin, or even McMahon (as the top heel). And yeah, he used to clown Rock early on in their careers, but by WrestleMania XV, Rock had lapped him several times over.

 

i don't think he ever deserved those insanely long title runs, but the fact that his character even admits that he needs it, speaks volumes. Rock, Austin, etc didn't need a title. They didn't need 30 minutes for a promo. They were in, bang, out. Triple H was constantly everywhere. I think both the departures of Austin and Rock between late '99 and late '01 had a lot to do with it as well.

 

WWE rewarded the good soldier that they took to the woodshed after the incident at MSG, and let him run roughshod over the roster. Then when Austin, Rock left, and they lost their two alpha dogs, WWE turned to him in desperation, and decided to make him into something more than what he actually was.

Edited by Mr. Sinister

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HHH had some really great matches with the Rock for the IC title back in the day.  And he was a main contributor, imo, to the MNWs.  We were in college during all of that and we would flip back and forth waiting on HHH/DX to come on.  

 

Of course the Rock, Austin and Vince and even Mankind (to a certain degree) were "stealing the show".  If you want to call HHH, DX, etc. grade B talent back then, that's understandable.  But, imo, the way they were used was a ton better than the waste of talent and direction at WCW when Russo buried them.

 

Most talented roster overall, WCW.  Best used roster, WWF/WWE.  The roster WCW assembled was only because of the money they could throw around.

 

Hall, Nash, Hogan, etc. left for $$$ because Ted broke the bank to pay them contracts that were not heard of back then.  I remember Nash in an interview saying that he never wanted to leave, but once he told Vince what WCW was going to pay him, he said go, I can't pay you that.  

Edited by Dont Taze Me Bro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would honestly argue that the best used roster was ECW's under Heyman. The work some of those guys did..... Half of them had no business being pro wrestlers, and the other half probably belonged in a high level psych ward

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would honestly argue that the best used roster was ECW's under Heyman. The work some of those guys did..... Half of them had no business being pro wrestlers, and the other half probably belonged in a high level psych ward

If we are gonna toss in ECW to the mix.  Absolutely 100% agree.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we are gonna toss in ECW to the mix.  Absolutely 100% agree.  

 

The ultimate dream is imagining what Heyman could have done with either WCW or WWE's roster, with full control. Guy is a genius.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your pretty cranky Sinister, so lets review....YOU said

 

I assure you, I'm not :)

 

And I said he and DX were one of the main reasons.... Which they were

 

DX didn't become the DX everyone knew and loved until the "DX Army" version, which formed after Michaels left. As good as Shawn Michaels was, when he was at his apex, WWE was struggling. 

 

WWE didn't really start consistently beating WCW in ratings until early 1999, and Triple H was a part of that. I don't know how else to explain it to you, honestly. That is a fact. It isn't up for debate. And as a singles wrestler, he was rising up the ranks, but ultimately flatlined in late spring- early summer '99 (before he began his storied, highly questionable meteoric rise). By then, WCW was a joke. But he absolutely was a key contributor. Anyone who watched wrestling will tell you that.

 

I don't think he was ever s good as his resume suggested, but he was far from a slouch/dead weight/non factor. That is going from one extreme to the other

 

Wrong. In my eyes there is no way in hell that one of the "Main Reasons" WCW lost the MNW was because of HHH, Not a chance not in this lifetime. HHH was a B player, WCW didn't lose the MNW because of B players. Guys like Undertaker, Kane, Mick Foley had much more influence on the MNW who were also B players but none of them were "Main reasons" they lost. I'm glad you think your right and that everyone here is wrong but your wrong, by the time DX was in full swing the war was already over and its been proven, think what you want though, this sort of argument I expect to have as time goes on and people make up history because its what they were told by WWE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this