The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[Mr. Sinister]

Can't believe TNA  is done. Russo is going to have a black cat following him for the rest of his life.

 

Dude is like the John Gotti of pro wrestling lol.

[MattFancy]

LKB, you touched on some good points. You can almost tell when the WWE is running out of ideas when they start bringing back the old guys for random nights. What exactly is the point of seeing the nWo back together on RAW next week? Those kids in the crowd aren't going to know the significance of the nWo.

 

Monday was the 1st time in awhile I tried to watch RAW, it was terrible. Felt like a big commercial for WWE Network. You can tell they're worried about people leaving when they do all that schtick about the network right away to open the show.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Got Rock and Stone Cold for a New York minute, too. I always wonder how different things would have been for pro wrestling if Austin's neck didn't turn to ****, Rock sucked at Hollywood, Angle's body didn't break down, Lesnar didn't leave, and Benoit/Eddie G didn't die.

 

All that **** happened in like a 3 year period. Completely nuked wrestling, compared to where it was around the end of the Monday night wars

 

Part of me thinks that if Austin had been "healthy" and stuck with wrestling, he would be dead now. And frankly, I'm not sure how Angle isn't dead.

[CrypticVillain]

Raw was ok last night. I did love Stephanie hitting both Bellas with a pedigree.

 

I don't know what was better, Stephanie actually hitting them with the pedigree or the way the Bella's sold the move.

 

But yeah, that RAW was pretty meh. I enjoyed everything about the Slater/Rollins match, but it won't lead to anything for Slater so who cares. 

 

What the heck did Cesaro do? He's falling hard right now. Either he pissed somebody off, or he's about to get one heck of a push soon. 

[Mr. Sinister]

Part of me thinks that if Austin had been "healthy" and stuck with wrestling, he would be dead now. And frankly, I'm not sure how Angle isn't dead.

 

Yeah, or in jail. Take away all the neck stuff, and he was still getting in domestic violence ****, and had become severely paranoid backstage, not to mention the whole Lesnar thing that made him walk out on the company.... Though I think just about about everyone has told Vince to go **** himself at least once, only to be welcomed back with open arms.

 

But I could easily see him flipping because they wanted Orton, Cena, Edge, or Batista to go over him at WrestleMania or something.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I think Austin was bigger into drugs-alcohol than we are led to believe. He was nuts during that period

But as far as the current day product goes, haven't really watched in weeks.

And I'm done with the Network after Summerslam

[Mr. Sinister]

Yeah I've been watching the hell out of WWE Network, but honestly, that stuff was starting to make me depressed, lol. I'd give anything to turn the clock back and relive all those moments live, again.

 

You think wrestling is going to be awesome forever, and then bam, you wake up one morning and all your favorite guys are gone, or dead....... And John Cena's wigger character is getting a massive push that feels like someone taking a sledgehammer to your balls.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Mr. Sinister

[KDawg]

I don't think the product is all that bad, to be honest. It's not amazing, but I think a lot of people who are thinking about the good ol' days are actually forgetting that there was some AWFUL TV during the attitude era, too. They just had the megastars to put over the show as a whole no matter what happened on the undercard.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Yeah, or in jail. Take away all the neck stuff, and he was still getting in domestic violence ****, and had become severely paranoid backstage, not to mention the whole Lesnar thing that made him walk out on the company.... Though I think just about about everyone has told Vince to go **** himself at least once, only to be welcomed back with open arms.

 

 

The weird thing with Austin is - despite his injuries - I don't think he was ever that heavily into pills, but he was apparently drinking a ton at the end. And, you know, beating his wife.  Without the neck problem, he may have had a few more years in him in the ring. But without the neck problem, he might have still been wrestling the way he did as Stunning Steve instead of the "WWF main event style" that he really mastered in his money drawing years.

 

His career is really fascinating, because there are probably six or seven major crossroads.

 

1.What if he doesn't tear his tricep in WCW?

2. What if he doesn't piss off Bischoff during his rehab to the point where Bischoff fires him?

 

He probably stays in WCW until the end. He was making good money and was pretty well settled into the upper mid-card. He probably would have spent his career there fighting for the US or tv titles or ending up in World Tag title feuds.

 

3. What if WWF turfs him after the Ringmaster gimmick goes south?

 

He was less than nothing at the end of that run. He was an online darling, but so were a lot of guys then. At that point he was an oft-injured mid-carder who just carried a miserable gimmick into nothing. He probably wasn't going to get released then. WWF was low on talent. But he was jobbing to Savio Vega at the time.

 

4. What if HHH isn't punished for the MSG Curtain Call?

 

HHH may have won King of the Ring instead of Austin. Without that, there is no Austin 3:16 promo. And without that promo, there is no Stone Cold Steve Austin. At least not on the same schedule.

 

5. Along the same lines, what if Jake Roberts isn't there at King of the Ring?

 

That Roberts run was out of nowhere and his born-again, drug free character set up that promo perfectly. Does he get that promo if he beats Marc Mero in the finals?

 

6. What if Owen doesn't drop him on his head?

 

Does his career last longer? If he could still wrestle the way he could before the injury, does the promo heavy Raw format take off? So much of the set up of Raw now is there because the Bret Hart-Austin feud was between two great workers who were often too hurt to work. So, Raw became these long promos and debates and in-ring shenanigans to deal with the fact that both of them were hurt a lot.

 

7. What if there is no Montreal Screw Job?

 

This set up the Mr. McMahon character - even thouhg no one remembers that they initially tried to make Vince a babyface off that. Montreal forced them to reveal McMahon as "the boss" and a prick of a boss at that. And that created the feud that made Vince a billionaire.

 

Either Austin or Hogan is the biggest star in wrestling history. Austin may have made more money overall. Hogan may have left a larger cultural impact. Your mileage may vary.

 

But Hogan's path is a direct line to stardom. He debuted in the 70s, was main eventing with Andre within two or three years of his debut, became a big star in Japan, became a big star in the AWA, made Rocky III, finally had enough of the AWA's stupid politics, went to Vince and was immediately given the keys to the kingdom. The only major "what if" in Hogan's career really has more to do with Verne Gagne than with Hulk.

 

The Rock had a lousy debut, but it was obvious two years in that he was going to be a huge star. Became a huge star and left to become a bigger mainstream star.

 

Austin....in the early 90s, you could almost picture a time when he and Dustin Rhodes would be fighting for the WCW title someday. Maybe. If you were optimistic and had any faith in WCW. But that only meant that he was going to be as big a name as Ron Simmons. There was never a reason to predict what happened to him.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't think the product is all that bad, to be honest. It's not amazing, but I think a lot of people who are thinking about the good ol' days are actually forgetting that there was some AWFUL TV during the attitude era, too. They just had the megastars to put over the show as a whole no matter what happened on the undercard.

 

I always push the Cornette podcast, but people really need to listen to the Lance Storm interview from a few weeks back (not the panel one from the NWA Legends convention). They really break down what happened in the late 90s and how that got us to where we are now.

 

Lance is really smart - though you understand that his being a bad promo is totally a genetic thing with him. He is just boring to his bones unfortunately.

 

He actually filters that Attitude Era through ECW. ECW got huge because every guy on the card was out to upstage every other guy on the card in every match. Which is exciting as hell for a while. Until you reach the point where there is nowhere else to go and you end up with New Jack jumping off balconies and giving himself brain damage.

 

I mean, here's the question: Is there anyway you aren't going to make money with Austin-McMahon, the Rock, Foley, and Degeneration X at the top of your card? Is there anyway that's not going to be exciting?

 

Did you really need porn stars, pimps, satanic ministries, dogs being fed to their owners, painted on bikinis, old women giving birth to hands, etc?

 

Because I think it's all that undercard stuff that has led us to the point where stuff is so boring. The upper card right now is actally pretty good. And I actually sort of like the Rusev-Swagger stuff. That's a classic mid-card angle. Except it's not going to end with Lana having Zeb's baby so it doesn't compare to the Attitude Era and seems boring in contrast.

 

At the same time, where do you go from the Attitude Era? How do you top Hell in a Cell without someone dying? How do you top Katie Vick without having to do the show on Showtime at 11:30

 

It was either on the Storm podcast or the St. Louis podcast, but the line that sticks with me is this "You can't have ****o setting himself on fire in the second match" and expect the main event to mean anything.

 

Having said all that....the WWE can fix a lot of its issues if he develops stars again. And not Randy Orton "Eh, I'll Guess That Will Do" stars.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Mr. Sinister]

I don't think the product is all that bad, to be honest. It's not amazing, but I think a lot of people who are thinking about the good ol' days are actually forgetting that there was some AWFUL TV during the attitude era, too. They just had the megastars to put over the show as a whole no matter what happened on the undercard.

 

That is true.

 

 

4. What if HHH isn't punished for the MSG Curtain Call?

 

HHH may have won King of the Ring instead of Austin. Without that, there is no Austin 3:16 promo. And without that promo, there is no Stone Cold Steve Austin. At least not on the same schedule.

 

 

6. What if Owen doesn't drop him on his head?

 

Does his career last longer? If he could still wrestle the way he could before the injury, does the promo heavy Raw format take off? So much of the set up of Raw now is there because the Bret Hart-Austin feud was between two great workers who were often too hurt to work. So, Raw became these long promos and debates and in-ring shenanigans to deal with the fact that both of them were hurt a lot.

 

7. What if there is no Montreal Screw Job?

 

 

 

These are the three I think about most. Trips was absolutely going to win KOTR until that happened, and he was put on ice for a year. If that doesn't happen then maybe it's Triple H ****ing with Hart instead of Austin. Hell, maybe there's no DX.

 

If Owen doesn't botch the piledriver, Austin surely doesn't have to get that corrective surgery in '99, that put him on the shelf for 11 months, and allowed the Rock to put the company on his back, and rise meteorically to become Austin's equal (because it was always Austin, with Rock a smidge below during most of late '98/early '99. Maybe Rock doesn't get all those SNL gigs, and RNC "Smackdown your vote" appearances, ultimately leading to him leaving to film The Mummy Returns, turning him into a part timer for the rest of his WWE career.

 

If there's no screwjob, there's no beer truck, no zamboni, no monster truck, no ceiling ripping Stunners. As great as Austin was, the Mr McMahon character amplified it to absurd degrees. That was his number one rival. That's like Dusty Rhodes without Flair.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Last post, but here's a question:

 

Where are the female fans?

 

Austin had Ricky Morton on his podcast this week. And they were talking about how Morton was basically having sex with his fan base during his ring entrance. And it's true. And his stuff was mild compared to what the Von Erichs dealt with on their way to the ring. If you watch any RnR Express or Von Erich match, you will need to turn the volume down because of the high-pitched screeching from the crowd. Teenage girls would weep while the babyfaces got beat up.

 

The WWE happily let the Southern Redneck fans who kept WCW afloat for 15 years go. (Seriously, there are probably 3 million former 'rasslin fans all across the South that the WWE told to go F themselves. And they are all watching Duck Dynasty now).

 

But the WWE also basically told teenage and twenty-something girls to go away too. And those people spend money. And make noise. And bring teenage boys to the arena, because there can't be anything easier than a teenage wrestling fan, right?

 

Right now the WWE audience is ten year old boys and 25 year old men in black t-shirts. You can stay in business with that audience, but it's not going to change the world.

[Mr. Sinister]

Along with Duck Dynasty, all those old WCW fans seemed to have made a living trashing WWE over the interwebs.

 

I used to read a few smark boards around '02 during comp lab class, not long after WCW/ECW went under, and those people were seriously ****ing crazy. I'm pretty sure they'd have killed McMahon had they been close enough.

 

People are nuts, man 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Along with Duck Dynasty, all those old WCW fans seemed to have made a living trashing WWE over the interwebs.

 

I used to read a few smark boards around '02 during comp lab class, not long after WCW/ECW went under, and those people were seriously ****ing crazy. I'm pretty sure they'd have killed McMahon had they been close enough.

 

People are nuts, man 

 

This is a really stupid analogy, but in a way, if you were really into white wines and one day, someone said, "There is no more white wine only red wine....." you would be pretty pissed.

 

WCW had long-stopped being a southern 'rasslin company by the late 90s. But it still held that legacy. And if you were a fan of the Crocketts or Georgia or Watts or the Von Erichs or Memphis or Continental or even St Louis wrestling, you were basically SOL by the time Vince "won." 

 

There are more Gallens out there than we probably realize.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

There was plenty of garbage in the attitude era. Plenty...but the talent itself was undeniable.

Today's upper care isn't bad at all. The mid card and below is atrocious. Luckily, WWE has a pretty good farm system and I'm 98% sure that **** is gonna be amazing when HHH gets full control

I think WWE itself (just the brand and structure) is just stale. It's so corporate and boring.

And my God the commentary is simply abominable

[MattFancy]

There was plenty of garbage in the attitude era. Plenty...but the talent itself was undeniable.

Today's upper care isn't bad at all. The mid card and below is atrocious. Luckily, WWE has a pretty good farm system and I'm 98% sure that **** is gonna be amazing when HHH gets full control

 

The thing with the Attitude Era, for me at least, was that you actually cared about the mid-card. You cared about Val Venis, The Godfather, Goldust, X-Pac, etc. because they made those mid-card matches and titles matter. The Tag Titles and IC Title actually meant something. Now, no one cares about those because they don't push them as much.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Along with Duck Dynasty, all those old WCW fans seemed to have made a living trashing WWE over the interwebs.

 

I used to read a few smark boards around '02 during comp lab class, not long after WCW/ECW went under, and those people were seriously ****ing crazy. I'm pretty sure they'd have killed McMahon had they been close enough.

 

People are nuts, man 

Thats an understatement lol

 

Me and my boys went to a WCW Nitro here in Charlotte, the one right after the NWO whipped the Horsemen at the PPV in Winston Salem, NC the night before.  Once the music hit and Hall, Nash and Hogan started walking to the ring, beer trash, everything started flying.

 

We all had on NWO shirts and were standing giving the wolfpack sign, people started throwing beer on us, etc.  One guy tried to fight my friend, didn't end well for that guy lol.  When Nash got on the mic and said, "Death to the Horsemen...In their own backyard!"  I thought a riot was going to break out lol.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

There was plenty of garbage in the attitude era. Plenty...but the talent itself was undeniable.

Today's upper care isn't bad at all. The mid card and below is atrocious. Luckily, WWE has a pretty good farm system and I'm 98% sure that **** is gonna be amazing when HHH gets full control

 

All the guys there came out of the farm system too.

 

I don't think WWE has a ton of options, but I'm not sold on the performance center being the end all and be all. Punk and Bryan came out of the indies, and they were the guys who moved the needle the most in recent years.

 

All the NXT peeps seem to have the same problem....they get in front of an arena and if their stuff doesn't get a response, they have no Plan B. I think in order for NXT to really work, they need to start doing shows in 1000-2000 seat venues. But I think that the WWE brass thinks that high school gyms are "beneath them."

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

True

Those guys were getting huge pops. HUGE

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The thing with the Attitude Era, for me at least, was that you actually cared about the mid-card. You cared about Val Venis, The Godfather, Goldust, X-Pac, etc. because they made those mid-card matches and titles matter. The Tag Titles and IC Title actually meant something. Now, no one cares about those because they don't push them as much.

 

Did you really care? Or did you just find the gimmicks entertaining?

 

Like I literally cannot remember one in-ring Godfather moment. But I sure as hell remember his entrances. Because six strippers walking to the ring is memorable.

 

Storm and Cornette actually talk about this on the podcast I mention. They think that it's dangerous long-term if fans care too much about the mid-card. Because you end up protecting gimmicks and no one gets over and no one can really move up. And - at the same time - you can overshadow your main events.

 

I actually think WCW had the right idea with their mid-cards during the NWO era, but like everything else WCW, it got bloated and unmanageable. The cruiserweights were largely segregated which gave the work-rate freaks something to focus on. You could have weird and entertaining mid-card feuds like Jericho-Malenko or the stuff with Raven.

 

The big problem in WCW is no one ever moved up from the mid-card, because their main event level was way too crowded and determined by contracts.

[MattFancy]

Did you really care? Or did you just find the gimmicks entertaining?

 

Like I literally cannot remember one in-ring Godfather moment. But I sure as hell remember his entrances. Because six strippers walking to the ring is memorable.

 

Storm and Cornette actually talk about this on the podcast I mention. They think that it's dangerous long-term if fans care too much about the mid-card. Because you end up protecting gimmicks and no one gets over and no one can really move up. And - at the same time - you can overshadow your main events.

 

I actually think WCW had the right idea with their mid-cards during the NWO era, but like everything else WCW, it got bloated and unmanageable. The cruiserweights were largely segregated which gave the work-rate freaks something to focus on. You could have weird and entertaining mid-card feuds like Jericho-Malenko or the stuff with Raven.

 

The big problem in WCW is no one ever moved up from the mid-card, because their main event level was way too crowded and determined by contracts.

 

Little of both. But at least they were memorable 15 years later. Is there anything happening in the current mid-card that you're going to look back on and remember? Probably not. Hell, you barely know who is even the IC Champ most of the time. Miz for now, but that's only because he's the mid-card "star".

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Little of both. But at least they were memorable 15 years later. Is there anything happening in the current mid-card that you're going to look back on and remember? Probably not. Hell, you barely know who is even the IC Champ most of the time. Miz for now, but that's only because he's the mid-card "star".

 

I think the belts are a separate issue completely. What they've done with title belts is a disgrace. You could have important matches up and down the card - without gimmicks or overly complicated feuds - if people care about the belts at all.

 

The WCW cruiserweights proved that. That stuff was crazy over and not one of those dudes could talk worth a damn. But we cared about who held the title itself.

 

I don't know why the writers aren't furious about this. You could fill forty five minutes of Raw with Guy 1 saying he wants to fight guy 2 for the belt, Guy 2 responding, and the match taking place. Do that twice and you have half the show in the bag without having to write a freaking sitcom.

[Mr. Sinister]

The thing with the Attitude Era, for me at least, was that you actually cared about the mid-card. You cared about Val Venis, The Godfather, Goldust, X-Pac, etc. because they made those mid-card matches and titles matter. The Tag Titles and IC Title actually meant something. Now, no one cares about those because they don't push them as much.

 

When I think of some of the bad, I think of Kurrgan, and his several eastern european toughguy gimmicks that went nowhere, before WWE basically said eff it, and formed the Oddities, where, by some sick, sadistic stretch of the imagination, he got over (for a little while anyway).

 

Gangrel is probably one of the ****tiest wrestlers to ever step foot in a WWE ring, but people still remember his awesome gimmick/ring entrance. Sure, the Ministry of Darkness was a bit overkill, but it gave Mabel and Henry Godwynn a chance to be relevant. Without their crazy transformations, they both probably would've been relegated to dark matches for the rest of their lives.

 

Another weird one was the "LOD 2000" thing, where they were given new gear, and Sunny as a manager, with Droz eventually becoming the leader..... which was just ****ing weird. A lot of it was weird, but it held your attention, which is all they really care about. The problem though, was that a lot of that stuff has a short shelf life, and by late '99, all of those guys were gone. Luckily for WWE, their tag team division was about to catch fire. If it wasn't fr the Dudleys/Hardy's/Edge & Christian, and the arrival of Chris Jericho and Kurt Angle (and later the Radicalz), WWE wouldve been in serious ****ing trouble.

 

 

 

This is a really stupid analogy, but in a way, if you were really into white wines and one day, someone said, "There is no more white wine only red wine....." you would be pretty pissed.

 

WCW had long-stopped being a southern 'rasslin company by the late 90s. But it still held that legacy. And if you were a fan of the Crocketts or Georgia or Watts or the Von Erichs or Memphis or Continental or even St Louis wrestling, you were basically SOL by the time Vince "won." 

 

There are more Gallens out there than we probably realize.

 

Yeah. I picture some fat 50-ish dude with a youtube channel, with ike 5 followers, railing on Vince, when in reality, he should be railing on Russo, Nash/Hogan, and the group of white collar people in charge of the company that didn't want anything to do with "Wrasslin". I think it's Vince's promo in '01 that still pisses them off though. He dropped some truth bombs on them.

 

I mean, that last episode of Nitro looked like it was shot in the back of a Pilot truck stop, LOL. The writing had been on the wall for years. Then you have all the conspiracy theorists who think Russo was sent in to finish WCW off lol. Bunch of lunatics.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

I think the belts are a separate issue completely. What they've done with title belts is a disgrace. You could have important matches up and down the card - without gimmicks or overly complicated feuds - if people care about the belts at all.

 

The WCW cruiserweights proved that. That stuff was crazy over and not one of those dudes could talk worth a damn. But we cared about who held the title itself.

 

I don't know why the writers aren't furious about this. You could fill forty five minutes of Raw with Guy 1 saying he wants to fight guy 2 for the belt, Guy 2 responding, and the match taking place. Do that twice and you have half the show in the bag without having to write a freaking sitcom.

This won't happen, but I think the best thing for the future of WWE would for them to lose money to the point they have to cancel Smack Down, release some of the talent (lower and some mid-carders they are wasting like Sandow, Cesaro, etc.).  And another company or TNA (should it somehow survive - unlikely I know) acquire that talent and start fresh with new writers and offer some level of competition for the WWE.  

 

I know people aren't jumping at the opportunity to break into owning a wrestling business, but it would be the best thing that could happen for us fans.  If TNA folds and nobody steps up, then the above happening would still benefit us as fans, like a tier 2 best scenario, imo.

 

Imagine if they had to scrap Smackdown, release more of the talent because the payroll is higher than the revenue.  Cut Raw back to 2 hours and run with that and NXT.  Vince is a businessman, if he takes a hit like that, he will do everything he can in his power to come out on top again, folding dollar bills fist over fist.

 

We would get better story lines and it wouldn't be watered down with all the crap we get now.  

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I just feel like a RAW is just one big commercial

Sponsors are more important than the product