The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

David Shoemaker made a good point a few weeks ago. A Cena heel turn might ultimately be pointless, because the kids would boo him while the smarts started cheering him. It would be the same 50/50 reaction he gets now with less money on merchandise.

[KDawg]

David Shoemaker made a good point a few weeks ago. A Cena heel turn might ultimately be pointless, because the kids would boo him while the smarts started cheering him. It would be the same 50/50 reaction he gets now with less money on merchandise.

 

He's probably right.

 

But then again, the kids would still buy merchandise... Daniel Bryan and Punk would still sell. Hell, kids are buying that stupid Wyatt family mask.

 

The trick to turning Cena is to get the kids to still like him somehow. It would be tough, for sure. It may not even be possible.

[Big Weirdo]

Stone Cold only became goofy after the heel stuff didn't work. Nobody wanted to boo him because, damn it, he's STONE COLD! STONE COLD! STONE COLD!

Also LKB I enjoyed reading your post on WCW and WWE. You've got a lot of knowledge about wrasslin in you.

And KDawg I'm with you. It's not Bryans fault. I think he is a good example of taking someone who just needs the extra push over the edge and completely burying him. They screwed that up in so many ways. I felt bad for Bryan after that.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Big Weirdo

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Stone Cold only became goofy after the heel stuff didn't work. Nobody wanted to boo him because, damn it, he's STONE COLD! STONE COLD! STONE COLD!

Also LKB I enjoyed reading your post on WCW and WWE. You've got a lot of knowledge about wrasslin in you.

 

I'm a nerd with a damn near photographic memory. And I started watching wrestling in 1980 when I was 7. I went to my first live wrestling event in 1981. In all honesty, one of the dominant memories of my childhood is watching the Freebirds give Ted DiBiase five piledrivers while Gordon Solie treated it like a live execution. (Seriously, google "Freebirds Dibiase Incident" and that explains my entire worldview).

 

I loved Georgia Championship Wrestling and saw plenty of Bob Backlund Era WWWF. My dad was a Sammartino fan, but I just missed him. I thought Backlund was the most boring person on the planet, liked Tommy Rich, and loved Dusty Rhodes. I also really liked Freddie Blassie and the Freebirds. That pretty much is the template for everything I like in wrestling now. I like badass heels, underdog babyfaces, and anyone with weird charisma. I am not really all that into workrate (though I appreciate it) and I don't really care for chicken**** heels. I like managers and passionate promos and guys who throw really good punches. Heaven to me is Midnight Express/Rock and Roll Express match followed by a Four Horseman beatdown followed by Nikita Koloff knocking a jobber's head off.

 

In other words, pretty much nothing in the WWE caters to me right now. And probably never will again. I'm kind of okay with that, but I feel like there are some old elements that really should be revived to at least some degree. I love this Dustin Rhodes stuff not so much because I like Dustin Rhodes but because Dustin is putting on a tag team wrestling clinic every week. And tag team wrestling has been dead for a decade.

[Mr. Sinister]

LKB is a walking NWA documentary.

 

*Matter of fact, I seriously wonder if there is anything dude doesn't know (not kissing ass, just saying). Everytime he talks I feel like one of those disciples on the mount when Jesus gives a sermon.

 

PS, I watche dthat "Greatest rivalries of wrestling" doc on Netflix a few days ago. I would've given anything to be a fly on the wall for one of those Freebirds/Von Erichs or Flair/Steamboat matches.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Mr. Sinister

[CrypticVillain]

*Matter of fact, I seriously wonder if there is anything dude doesn't know (not kissing ass, just saying). Everytime he talks I feel like one of those disciples on the mount when Jesus gives a sermon.

I don't know if I would go that far lol, but I must admit LKB has some of the best posts in Tailgate. With myself being a close second.

 

Seriously though, I think WWE needs some serious competition. You never get the best out of something unless you have some comp.

 

Kind of reminds me of EA Sports and 2K Sports with the football games. The last good Madden was 2005. It was the first Madden with the Hitstick. Every since then, they have been lazy coming up with new ways to make the game better. And it's not a coincident that the last time EA had a serious competitor was when 2k put out NFL 2k5, the last NFL 2k before EA brought exclusive licenses.

Now what 2k did to EA with the NBA is kind of what WWE did to TNA and WCW. 2k didn't buy exclusive rights for the NBA video game, they just beat the breaks off of EA by making a vastly superior product to the point where EA just stopped making NBA Live. When that happened, 2K Sports got a little lazy, that was until this year when EA re-branded Live. Thus 2K had to step their game up, and they did.

 

So until WWE gets a serious competitor, we will not see much innovative things from them from here on out.

 

Which will never happen unless Disney creates a wrestling company to go head to head with them. lol

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

There have never been nor there ever will be wrestlers as over as the Von Erichs were in Dallas in the mid 80s.

 

When I moved to Texas, we visited some friends in Dallas. It was my first time to the city and I said I want to see the following: The School Book Depository, South Fork, and the Von Erich Ranch in Denton (which I believe is just a housing development now). My friend acted dumb "The Von Whos?"

 

I said "The wrestlers. You had to watch them when you were growing up."

 

She said, "Oh...we didn't watch that."

 

I said, "You never heard of them?"

 

She said, "Oh....I saw them out from time to time....We would get their autographs at the local pizza place.....and I thought Kerry was the best looking and....it was sad when David died......" But she never watched them.

 

Watch clips of their old shows. Kerry Von Erich used to tongue kiss teenage girls in the crowd on the way to the ring. It was insane.

 

Vince loved the Von Erichs. There are several clips from 1984 and 1985 WWF tv where they hype up the famous Von Erich family in Texas for reasons that remain unclear. Obviously, Kerry before he lost his foot is everything Vince wanted in a wrestler. But it's still weird that he actually acknowledged another territory at the time.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 

Which will never happen unless Disney creates a wrestling company to go head to head with them. lol

 

I've thought about this a lot. It seems insane to me that we live in a universe with 50,000 cable channels and there are only 1 and a half wrestling companies with any presence on television.

 

If I was a multi-millionaire with too much free time, I would only buy TNA if I could keep their timeslot and only if I could negotiate some kind of partial ownership deal with ROH where I could somehow combine the two companies, keep the Spike timeslot, keep the Sinclair tv spots, and fire whoever I wanted. I might only keep four of five guys under contract, rent a cheap studio somewhere, and try to run studio wrestling for a year or two using my guys and indie dudes on 30-day contracts. I would let everyone work the indies if they wanted; no one would be exclusive, and I wouldn't tour until I knew I could fill 1000 seats in a cheap building. My long term goal would be to do one week a month in an area where I could fill a lot of cheap buildings within a few hours of each other. Columbus/Cleveland/Toledo/Dayton/Detroit or Baltimore/Washington/Charlottesville/Richmond/Hampton Roads....that sort of thing.

 

My vision would be indie wrestling combined with Memphis booking. Memphis thrived for decades and made several people very rich using pudgy Jerry Lawler, midget Bill Dundee, annoying Jimmy Hart, and whoever else was cheap and available.

 

The problem with this vision is something Dusty Rhodes said in a shoot a few years ago. Vince has created a world where the only kind of wrestling is WWE wrestling. If you are watching a sporting event on ESPN and a fight breaks out, someone will say, "It's like the WWF down there right now." I just think there is an entire generation that doesn't even know that there can be pro wrestling outside of the WWE universe. And I don't really think there is any money in marketing to the people who like CZW nonsense. Those people are spending their entire welfare check to go a truckstop wrestling show.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[CrypticVillain]

It's a shame there is only two legit companies. But yeah, with some money and good production, a TNA/ROH partnership would be enough to make WWE sweat a little bit.

[Mr. Sinister]

Kerry Von Erich is the most cut up wrestler I've ever seen (that wasnt jacked up to enormous levels at least). not an ounce of fat. And yeah, the crowds went insane during those matches with the Freebirds. Crazy reaction. That dude is probably a road booty legend.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

It's a shame there is only two legit companies. But yeah, with some money and good production, a TNA/ROH partnership would be enough to make WWE sweat a little bit.

Where's the star power there tho?

ROH is an unofficial WWE breeding ground. If they joined the mess that is TNA, they would be done in a year.

But I heard the American Wolves ( Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards) are coming to WWE.

That would get me watching for a bit

I love watching guys grow in the Indies and finally make it. The reason why I loved the Shield so much is because of how amazing Rollins ( Tyler Black) was in ROH.

His matches with Daniel Bryan, Richards, and Roderick Strong were dope.

On the flip side, watching them screw up Claiudio Castagnoli (Antonio Cesaro) pisses me off. Can't believe they cut Chris Hero and Colt Cabana. They all seemed like Tailor made Vince guys

Edited December 4, 2013 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[Big Weirdo]

I'm a nerd with a damn near photographic memory. And I started watching wrestling in 1980 when I was 7. I went to my first live wrestling event in 1981. In all honesty, one of the dominant memories of my childhood is watching the Freebirds give Ted DiBiase five piledrivers while Gordon Solie treated it like a live execution. (Seriously, google "Freebirds Dibiase Incident" and that explains my entire worldview).

I loved Georgia Championship Wrestling and saw plenty of Bob Backlund Era WWWF. My dad was a Sammartino fan, but I just missed him. I thought Backlund was the most boring person on the planet, liked Tommy Rich, and loved Dusty Rhodes. I also really liked Freddie Blassie and the Freebirds. That pretty much is the template for everything I like in wrestling now. I like badass heels, underdog babyfaces, and anyone with weird charisma. I am not really all that into workrate (though I appreciate it) and I don't really care for chicken**** heels. I like managers and passionate promos and guys who throw really good punches. Heaven to me is Midnight Express/Rock and Roll Express match followed by a Four Horseman beatdown followed by Nikita Koloff knocking a jobber's head off.

In other words, pretty much nothing in the WWE caters to me right now. And probably never will again. I'm kind of okay with that, but I feel like there are some old elements that really should be revived to at least some degree. I love this Dustin Rhodes stuff not so much because I like Dustin Rhodes but because Dustin is putting on a tag team wrestling clinic every week. And tag team wrestling has been dead for a decade.

That's great. I'm too young for that type of territorial wrestling. That was dying out when I started to get into it. But I own many DVDs (oh who am I kidding Blu Rays) of the older stuff. You should check out the Mid South DVD the WWE released. You might like that. Also if you get a chance you can listen to Stone Cold 's podcast and he has alot of the older guys on for interviews and their stories are great. The Ric Flair episode is a gold mine of good stories.

A Co worker of mine downloaded alot of the Dusty/Ric Flair stuff from NWA and that was such a joy to watch. Both of them could cut promos like you wouldn't believe. SON OF A PLUMBER.

And I love the Dustin stuff too. He can flat out wrestle. And I always thought he had a great mind for the business. The Goldust character was genius, IMO. People hated his guts.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Big Weirdo

[Big Weirdo]

Where's the star power there tho?

ROH is an unofficial WWE breeding ground. If they joined the mess that is TNA, they would be done in a year.

But I heard the American Wolves ( Davey Richarfs and Eddie Edwards) are coming to WWE.

That would get me watching for a bit

I love watching guys grow in the Indies and finally make it. The reason why I loved the Shield so much is because of how amazing Rollins ( Tyler Black) was in ROH.

His matches with Daniel Bryan, Richards, and Roderick Strong were dope.

On the flip side, watching them screw up Claiudio Castagnoli (Antonio Cesaro) pisses me off. Can't believe they cut Chris Hero and Colt Cabana. They all seemed like Tailor made Vince guys

Colt could be the new Jerry Lawler. He is so good on commentary stuff. His podcasts are hilarious and he loves the business. I wish he would do that for WWE.

My favorite indie to come over was Ambrose. I love his style though I'm a complete mark for Mick Foley and I see alot of similarities between the two so that's why. His Jon Moxley stuff is awesome.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Colt could be the new Jerry Lawler. He is so good on commentary stuff. His podcasts are hilarious and he loves the business. I wish he would do that for WWE.

My favorite indie to come over was Ambrose. I love his style though I'm a complete mark for Mick Foley and I see alot of similarities between the two so that's why. His Jon Moxley stuff is awesome.

Never really saw him on the indies but I heard he was terrific.

 

I loved him in the shield back when I was watching. Is he still the "leader" ?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I love the Austin podcast. He is a really really good interviewer. And his product pitches are more entertaining than the interviews. 

 

I also love his bizarre obsessions. "What did you think of Dr. D hitting John Stossel?" "Who did you ride with?" "Who had the best working punch?"

 

The Flair interview was good, but Flair sounds like such a shell of a man now. I really liked the Dusty interview and hope he has him back several more times. Dusty is fascinating to listen to when he is not "in character." It really becomes clear how he became so powerful behind the scenes. The Scott Hall podcast was incredible. Scott Hall should be a booker somewhere (as long as he is not high or drunk or dying).

 

I also love how carnie Austin still is. In some ways, I'm glad he got his money and got out, because he was heading towards an early death. But, it's also sad that he is not more involved because he loves wrestling on a deep level. 

 

"I still get these gimmicks in the mail called bills."

After Kevin Nash told a story about punching his college basketball coach, Austin said, "Did he sell it?"

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I still spend hours watching Jim Cornette and Kevin Nash shoots.

 

Hilarious yet informative 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

A Co worker of mine downloaded alot of the Dusty/Ric Flair stuff from NWA and that was such a joy to watch. Both of them could cut promos like you wouldn't believe. SON OF A PLUMBER.

 

 

The Flair/Dusty stuff is dynamite, but there are several youtube clips of Dusty and Cornette going at in, I believe, 1988. Now, this was the death throes of Crockett and Dusty was completely out of ideas as a booker - he seemed to believe that what people wanted in 1988 was "More Dusty!"

 

But the SOB could still talk and Cornette was his equal. I think someone has stitched ten minutes of dueling promos together, and they were basically high level "Your mama" jokes for the most part. My favorite ones goes something like this:

 

"Everybody talkin' now. Cornette's mama talk to Cornette. Cornette talks to Stan Lane. Stan Lane talks to Bobby Eaton. Bobby Eaton can't talk. Stan Lane talks to Cornette. Cornette talks to Big Bubba. Big Bubba talks to Bobby. Bobby Eaton can't talk."

 

Somewhere on Youtube is an otherworldy Dusty promo from Georgia in something like 1980. It's shot on the world's worst video camera and takes place in the showers in the Omni after the Andersons attacked him with a steel-toed boot. He's bleeding from his head and screaming "You shoulda killed me when you had the chance, daddy!"

I still spend hours watching Jim Cornette and Kevin Nash shoots.

 

Hilarious yet informative 

 

Such polar opposite ideas of wrestling but both are brilliant. Cornette has a podcast now, but I haven't listed to it. I'm a little afraid that it's going to be an Ole Anderson "Old Man Yells at Cloud" thing. Cornette has officially burned every possible bridge in wrestling so who knows where his mind is.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

The Flair/Dusty stuff is dynamite, but there are several youtube clips of Dusty and Cornette going at in, I believe, 1988. Now, this was the death throes of Crockett and Dusty was completely out of ideas as a booker - he seemed to believe that what people wanted in 1988 was "More Dusty!"

 

But the SOB could still talk and Cornette was his equal. I think someone has stitched ten minutes of dueling promos together, and they were basically high level "Your mama" jokes for the most part. My favorite ones goes something like this:

 

"Everybody talkin' now. Cornette's mama talk to Cornette. Cornette talks to Stan Lane. Stan Lane talks to Bobby Eaton. Bobby Eaton can't talk. Stan Lane talks to Cornette. Cornette talks to Big Bubba. Big Bubba talks to Bobby. Bobby Eaton can't talk."

 

Somewhere on Youtube is an otherworldy Dusty promo from Georgia in something like 1980. It's shot on the world's worst video camera and takes place in the showers in the Omni after the Andersons attacked him with a steel-toed boot. He's bleeding from his head and screaming "You shoulda killed me when you had the chance, daddy!"

 

Such polar opposite ideas of wrestling but both are brilliant. Cornette has a podcast now, but I haven't listed to it. I'm a little afraid that it's going to be an Ole Anderson "Old Man Yells at Cloud" thing. Cornette has officially burned every possible bridge in wrestling so who knows where his mind is.

Yeah

 

He has.

 

But I feel that Nash could be a hell of a booker with Vince overseeing him (provided he stops being drunk off his ass every time I see on somewhere). Nash sucked as a booker in WCW but damn if anyone could have made that stuff work. His mind is actually fairly good if he has a buffer

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Kerry Von Erich is the most cut up wrestler I've ever seen (that wasnt jacked up to enormous levels at least). not an ounce of fat. And yeah, the crowds went insane during those matches with the Freebirds. Crazy reaction. That dude is probably a road booty legend.

 

I assume you've seen his daughter.

 

I still feel like there is an incredible Paul Thomas Anderson movie to be made about the Von Erichs. Parts of that family seem so twisted while other parts seem so innocent. I'm sure Kerry cost the world more cherries than George Washington, but everything I've heard and read about him indicates that he was just a big dumb, kinda innocent kid who happened to be a major league drug addict. The weird thing is that all the old timers say that the smart money was on Kevin dying first and he's the only one still alive.

 

The problem with a Von Erich movie or book is that there is no way to talk about Mike and Chris Von Erich without it just being overwhelmingly sad and horrible. Mike was forced into wrestling against his will, forced to carry David's legacy, couldn't really handle it, got hurt, nearly died, clearly was brain-damaged after the surgery, was forced back way too early, and then kills himself.

 

Chris was 5'4 with brittle bones and desperately wanted to be a wrestler. Tried it. Failed miserably. And killed himself.

Yeah

 

He has.

 

But I feel that Nash could be a hell of a booker with Vince overseeing him (provided he stops being drunk off his ass every time I see on somewhere). Nash sucked as a booker in WCW but damn if anyone could have made that stuff work. His mind is actually fairly good if he has a buffer

 

The problem with Nash is that he always thinks he is the smartest guy in the room. Even if he is, I can't imagine that working in the WWE.

 

I have to think the best booking committee in wrestling was when DDP, Jake, and Scott Hall had dinner after doing yoga. I would watch a reality show where those three live together and work at the WWE developmental facility. DDP could teach training and fitness. Jake could teach psychology and promos. Scott could teach in-ring work because he could work equally well as a big man or a small man.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I assume you've seen his daughter.

 

I still feel like there is an incredible Paul Thomas Anderson movie to be made about the Von Erichs. Parts of that family seem so twisted while other parts seem so innocent. I'm sure Kerry cost the world more cherries than George Washington, but everything I've heard and read about him indicates that he was just a big dumb, kinda innocent kid who happened to be a major league drug addict. The weird thing is that all the old timers say that the smart money was on Kevin dying first and he's the only one still alive.

 

The problem with a Von Erich movie or book is that there is no way to talk about Mike and Chris Von Erich without it just being overwhelmingly sad and horrible. Mike was forced into wrestling against his will, forced to carry David's legacy, couldn't really handle it, got hurt, nearly died, clearly was brain-damaged after the surgery, was forced back way too early, and then kills himself.

 

Chris was 5'4 with brittle bones and desperately wanted to be a wrestler. Tried it. Failed miserably. And killed himself.

That story should have been "the Wrestler" ya know?

 

I don't think anyone could write a better (worse?) drama than the Von Erichs. Cornette had a good interview about them on YT. 

 

[Big Weirdo]

Never really saw him on the indies but I heard he was terrific.

I loved him in the shield back when I was watching. Is he still the "leader" ?

I guess he's still the defacto leader mainly because he has that quality about him. He's also the best promo guy of the three.

I love the Austin podcast. He is a really really good interviewer. And his product pitches are more entertaining than the interviews.

I also love his bizarre obsessions. "What did you think of Dr. D hitting John Stossel?" "Who did you ride with?" "Who had the best working punch?"

The Flair interview was good, but Flair sounds like such a shell of a man now. I really liked the Dusty interview and hope he has him back several more times. Dusty is fascinating to listen to when he is not "in character." It really becomes clear how he became so powerful behind the scenes. The Scott Hall podcast was incredible. Scott Hall should be a booker somewhere (as long as he is not high or drunk or dying).

I also love how carnie Austin still is. In some ways, I'm glad he got his money and got out, because he was heading towards an early death. But, it's also sad that he is not more involved because he loves wrestling on a deep level.

"I still get these gimmicks in the mail called bills."

After Kevin Nash told a story about punching his college basketball coach, Austin said, "Did he sell it?"

He's asked the Stossel question to damn near everyone on there. It is hilarious. I think he gets alot of out of his interviews because he can connect with those guys in another level having lived that life and achieving success in the business.

He's another one I don't think is coming back for a match (though people talk about it all the time). He talks about how long it took him to get out the mindset of performing and being on the road all the time. Plus he is someone like Bret Hart who hates putting on even an average match. If he can't do it at a high level he won't do it.

The Scott Hall ones are brilliant. I'm glad he seems to have gotten his life together. I thought for sure he was going to die a few years ago. The guy couldn't stay clean for more than ten minutes.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Big Weirdo

[CrypticVillain]

Where's the star power there tho?

They will have some talent to work with, but you're right, they need stars. They would have to snatch some people from WWE with expiring contracts. And they can't miss with it. They would have to get some people that the smarks like (Ziggler, Cesaro, Sandow?) and somebody that the kids like (Kofi, Shaemus,) AND bring in a veteran that can give a good boost. Somebody like Jericho would be a perfect candidate for that role.

And that is as much as I can type from my cell phone.

[DM72]

LKB is a walking NWA documentary.

 

*Matter of fact, I seriously wonder if there is anything dude doesn't know (not kissing ass, just saying). Everytime he talks I feel like one of those disciples on the mount when Jesus gives a sermon.

 

PS, I watche dthat "Greatest rivalries of wrestling" doc on Netflix a few days ago. I would've given anything to be a fly on the wall for one of those Freebirds/Von Erichs or Flair/Steamboat matches.

 

 

Isn't he? Yes, the NWA production might have been bad, but I'd still rather see Tully Blanchard wrestle in front of 50 people than to see anything today in front of 20,000.

 

[Big Weirdo]

LKB is one of like 5 posters on this board I will click a thread just to read what he said. No matter what the topic is either. I'm drawn to you LKB. I can't help it.

I wish he would weigh in on the DMX thread.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Big Weirdo

[Gallen5862]

One way to do a Cena heel turn is to make people think he has. The authority could interfere in the unification title match so that Cena wins. Orton goes balistic and says you sold out. Cena can swear he didn't do a thing. On Monday night Raw Cena is called out to give an explaination. He denies everything but no one believes him. They can keep this up for awhile until someone discovers evidence that Cena was not involved. That could solve the problem of Cena not turning heel yet being treated as if he had.