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The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

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How old are you, out of curiosity? Did you watch in his prime late 80's through mid 90's Bret Hart? He was an incredible worker. Cena doesn't even hold a candle.

Im 36. Hart was a great worker, but I never liked him. Mic skills matter and he couldn't cut a promo if his life depended on it. Cena is not the worker Hart was, I'll agree to that. Cena is good on the mic and cuts better promos. People say Cena is boring, predictible in the ring........but all of them are. Im personally tired of John Cena, I still laugh at some of the jokes he cuts, but Im bored of him. Until someone can create a new brand, pay lots of money and steal some/develop talent and compete head to head with the WWE, we are going to get the same ole same ole

I have never liked Bret Hart, never will lol. I was drunk when I said he was inferrior to Cena and spatted off simply because I can't stand him. Plus, Im getting tired of them bringing in all these retired wrestlers in almost every show. Bret Hart was an incredible wrestler and worker. My all time favorite is Diesel, followed by the Rock (started pulling for him when he was with the Nation and hated by fans).

Edited by Dont Taze Me Bro

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I will agree with you about bringing back the old wrestlers. I don't mind when they do an occasional gimmick Battle Royal where they bring back 20 older guys and let someone like the Iron Sheik win, but on a regular basis, no way.

I don't watch much wrestling anymore, but they do need to start giving more attention to up and comers. I get most of my info reading the Masked Man stuff on Grantland, it sounds like people like Daniel Bryan and Dolph Ziggler need to be pushed to the next level, which will never happen as long as they bring back old guys or Triple H decides he still needs to be involved.

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You know, I had to do this because I can't believe anyone would respect Cena more than Bret Hart. I'm focusing on a specific timeline here based on what Mr. Sinister just said. The Monday night wars started in September 1995, and the Montreal Screwjob was in late 1997. 1998 was when the WWF Attitude era started, and they started to take back their share from WCW. So you're talking a 2+ year period (late 1995 - late 1997) where WWF is fighting tooth and nail with WCW to stay relevent. This is every PPV in that timeframe:

.

Before Megavideo was shut down, I went back and rewatched pretty much all of the WWF programming (meaning Raw/Smackdown, and the PPV's) from '96-2004. I remember all of those matches. It was bad... really bad. The tag team division was awful. They were still featuring guys like Duke "The Dumpster", some plumber dude, the Hillbilly Godwynns, and had Barry Windham in some weird "Stalker" gimmick where he wore some cheap ass WWF shirt, and camo pants to the ring, as well as old and broken down Jake The Snake. As you mentioned, dude was feuding with the freaking Patriot. Nuff said.

That's why it kinda isn't true when people say that HBK and Hart "Weren't draws." They were literally the only thing to look forward to, unless you wanted to see Vader, Sid, or The Undertaker in a squash match, or "Ringmaster" Steve Austin wrestle Savio Vega in a Strap Match in the dark (due to a power outage). The reason they didn't get huge numbers was because the rest of the roster sucked. As much as people loved the early '00s when you had guys like The Rock, Stone Cold, Triple H, Angle, Jericho, etc, that roster was loaded from top to bottom. Back then, it was Hart and HBK (along with a pretty stale Undertaker) and that was it. And when Hart went on hiatus, HBK damn near killed himself, giving it everything he had on every show, because the future of the company depended on it. He had one of the greatest (and forgotten) matches that I've ever seen with Mick Foley at "Mind Games."

And I honestly think the"foundaton" of the Attitude Era began in '96, with Hart vs Stone Cold. I don't know if you remember that crazy ass segment where Austin went to attack Brian Pillman, and Pillman pulled a gun on him. But I think it began with that particular feud (as well as Mankind's brutal feuds with the Undertaker, which pretty much revived Takers career, along with Goldusts arrival), then DX, The Nation, The New Age Outlaws, the birth of The Rock, all sprang form that. It was in early '97 when they actually started featuring those "Attitude" commercials, and switched from Monday Night Raw to Raw Is War, and Hart (and the Hart Foundation) were pretty much front and center.

And it actually shocked me when I went back and watched, but the Patriot was actually the first person to use Kurt Angles entrance music...before Kurt Angle. That dude was painful to watch.

Edited by Mr. Sinister

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Until someone can create a new brand, pay lots of money and steal some/develop talent and compete head to head with the WWE, we are going to get the same ole same ole

Man this is so true. TNA has tried, but they just don't have the resources that the WWE have. Like if they can pull somebody like Punk, Bryan, Kingston, and Dean Ambrose from the WWE. Bring up some people from the minors like Chuck Taylor, Sami Callihan and add that to people like Roode, Storm, Samoa Joe, and Aries. Joint would be epic.

But until somebody decides to go toe-toe with that giant, I will just have to dream. :cloud9:

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Anyone else see Ryback getting a match with Punk only to have Lesnar step in and start a feud with Ryback? (Which Ryback will win, simply to continue his push).

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Anybody check out TNA's Bound for Glory last night? Another very good ppv put on by TNA although I was kind of turned off by all the title changes (especially the Tag title, Chavo and Hernandez...ugh).

The Storm/Roode street fight was crazy and the main event was outstanding as well.

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Anybody check out TNA's Bound for Glory last night? Another very good ppv put on by TNA although I was kind of turned off by all the title changes (especially the Tag title, Chavo and Hernandez...ugh).

The Storm/Roode street fight was crazy and the main event was outstanding as well.

I did and it was an amazing PPV. IMO, the PPV of the year. The only thing I really didn't care for was RVD winning the X-Division title from Zema Ion. What about putting the young up and comer over?

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I did and it was an amazing PPV. IMO, the PPV of the year. The only thing I really didn't care for was RVD winning the X-Division title from Zema Ion. What about putting the young up and comer over?

I think Zema will win it back from RVD eventually. But right now it seems like TNA is trying to bring back some legitimacy to the X Divison by having a big name like RVD hold the belt, similar to putting the TV title on Joe.

My biggest gripe was the tag titles. Daniels and Kaz were great as champs and should have held the titles until a legit contender surfaced. But no, instead they put the straps on a WWE mid carder living off of his uncle's coat tails paired with a green brute who's move set consists of various shoulder blocks and a suicide dive. I wouldn't even have minded it as much if AJ and Angle had won.

I also don't really get the angle of having Devon as part of Aces & 8's but I'm interested to see where it goes.

I've been reading alot of hate for Hardy as the WHC. Seems a lot of people view him as the TNA version of John Cena. I personally don't mind Hardy all that much and I certainly don't blame TNA for putting the belt on him. He probably generates more $ for them than anyone else on the roster.

Overall though, I agree with you that this was the best TNA event of the year. I don't watch WWE PPVs so I can't really compare it to anything they have done.

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Whoever in WWE said "Lets put this guy from India, the Scottish guy and the Redneck together and they'll all play air guitar" should be fired. Switch over from MNF for a few 30 min ago and see that? Thanks Jerks.

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Did anybody see the kick that Kingston landed on Miz's face? There was nothing "fake" about it. Miz looked genuinely ****ed up. If anybody can post a gif it would be much appreciated.

Edited by KingGibbs

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Did anybody see the kick that Kingston landed on Miz's face? There was nothing "fake" about it. Miz looked genuinely ****ed up. If anybody can post a gif it would be much appreciated.

That was a stiff shot for sure. They showed the replay in slow-mo and he landed that thing square between the eyes. I was wondering if Miz had a legit concussion. Split him open at the very least.

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That was a stiff shot for sure. They showed the replay in slow-mo and he landed that thing square between the eyes. I was wondering if Miz had a legit concussion. Split him open at the very least.

I kept rewinding it and using super slow-mo. He dropped like a sack of potatoes.

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Anyone else see Ryback getting a match with Punk only to have Lesnar step in and start a feud with Ryback? (Which Ryback will win, simply to continue his push).

I still see this, by the way.

I think Lesnar interferes and costs Ryback the title.

Lesnar feuds with Ryback.

Edited by KDawg

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I saw something on a wrestling board that got me thinking. In the territory days, wrestlers were legit tough guys (for the most part). Bill Watts had two standing rules for his wrestlers:

1. If someone challenges you to a fight in a bar, and you don't fight him, you are fired.

2. If you lose the fight, you are fired.

Outside of Lesnar and maybe The Undertaker (neither of whom are really wrestlers at this point), who on the current roster could actually get in a fight with - say - two bikers and win? Hell, who on the current roster could fight 69-year-old Harley Race and win? I mean, I guess the physical freaks like Big Show could hold their own but anyone else?

Where have you gone, Dick Murdoch?

On another note, there are only two storylines the WWE is capable of writing right now:

1. Authority figure versus wrestler, and

2. Love triangle

Notice that neither of these is "Wrestler wants to win a title."

Edited by Lombardi's_kid_brother

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Outside of Lesnar and maybe The Undertaker (neither of whom are really wrestlers at this point)' date=' who on the current roster could actually get in a fight with - say - two bikers and win? Hell, who on the current roster could fight 69-year-old Harley Race and win? I mean, I guess the physical freaks like Big Show could hold their own but anyone else?

[/quote']

Santino could, dude is a legit bad ass that they have made into a joke.

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Santino could, dude is a legit bad ass that they have made into a joke.

Good point. There probably are guys on the roster who are legit tough guys, but those guys get turned into comedy wrestlers. I really don't get it. Even at the height of 80s cheesiness in the WWF, you had dudes like Neidhart and Valentine and Orton and Orndorff who were presented as killers.

It reminds me of something my mom said during her last years of teaching in high school. She said that in her early days, you would walk into a class of juniors and seniors and see "men" sitting at the desks. In her last years, they all looked like little boys. Everyone in the WWE looks like a little boy playing pretend to me now.

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Outside of Lesnar and maybe The Undertaker (neither of whom are really wrestlers at this point)' date=' who on the current roster could actually get in a fight with - say - two bikers and win? Hell, who on the current roster could fight 69-year-old Harley Race and win? I mean, I guess the physical freaks like Big Show could hold their own but anyone else?

Notice that neither of these is "Wrestler wants to win a title."[/quote']

:ols: I think you are selling that roster way too short.

But yeah, they aren't putting that much emphasis on titles. Unfortunately, the only way they can do that right now is if they put a big name on there.

TNA got it right when they gave Samoa Joe the TV Title. They aren't letting him talk much about it, but they are in a good position by giving it too him.

WWE needs to have John Cena, Orton, or another big face win the smaller titles if they want to make those titles and the Big titles feel important.

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:ols: I think you are selling that roster way too short.

But yeah, they aren't putting that much emphasis on titles. Unfortunately, the only way they can do that right now is if they put a big name on there.

TNA got it right when they gave Samoa Joe the TV Title. They aren't letting him talk much about it, but they are in a good position by giving it too him.

WWE needs to have John Cena, Orton, or another big face win the smaller titles if they want to make those titles and the Big titles feel important.

I don't buy the idea that wrestlers elevate titles. Titles are supposed to elevate wrestlers. And you do that by treating them seriously.

They have way too many titles. Cut them down to a manageable number and make the wrestlers seem somewhat interested in winning them. That's all it would take. It's the easiest thing to do.

Remember when Shawn Michales was chasing his "childhood dream" of winning the title? It's the simplest thing to book in the world. Have Wrestler A stand in the ring and say, "I want to be world champion because that will prove that I am the best in the world." And then have him walk out of the ring.

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