Attention Fox News... Bush's Immigration Position Did Not Change

[Fergasun]

I can't believe the media thinks we are so stupid. Watching some pundits on Fox News taut the President's "earned amnesty" plan... they all were pretty much saying... "Bush is providing leadership"... "Bush finally explained where he stands"... "That was one of his best speech's on immigration."

Bush has said the same thing multiple times throughout his Presidency! Everyone has known where he stands for about 2 years.... he came out with a "Guest Worker Plan" idea right after he won in November. He has been trying to push the same thing through for 6 years now.

I wish someone somewhere would run a montage of all his immigration over the past 6 years... it's basically...

1) Immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do

2) They are hard working people (throw out example of someone he met recently), that want to come out of the shadows

3) We are a nation of immigrants (my parents and grandparents didn't immigrate)

4) Be nice and don't say anything bad about the illegals... (why doesn't he talk about how some Mexican gang members kill cops and then flee to Mexico?)

5) I was Governor of Texas... so I have credibility on the issue

6) We can't possibly deport everyone (so let's not try...)

7) Comprehensive, Comprehensive, Comprehensive (since we don't have the will to enforce the laws, let's change them).

I hate the fact that his plan isn't a 5-step gradually plan, but a 5-steps at the same time plan. If they started to enforce the laws against employers and enforce the border aggressively, in 2-3 years I'll be willing to see a guest worker plan set up.... isn't that compromise!?

[Art]

I'm more a House guy than a Senate guy in all this. I'd like to see us do more, mandate English as the language expected of every person here, making it uncomfortable and difficult for those who will not become members of society. You're largely correct little changed in the plan, though the framing and audience will bring people on board. Areas of this sort are those I have my biggest problems with the President.

[Ignatius J.]

no that is not a compromise at all. That is giving the anti-immigrant groups exactly what they want. If we start enforcing before having a guest worker plan then your plan is simply massive deportation, which is as far to the extreme as you can get without wanting executions. This plan is the middle ground.

[DjTj]

I'm more a House guy than a Senate guy in all this. I'd like to see us do more, mandate English as the language expected of every person here, making it uncomfortable and difficult for those who will not become members of society. You're largely correct little changed in the plan, though the framing and audience will bring people on board. Areas of this sort are those I have my biggest problems with the President.

The English thing actually has nothing to do with the illegal problem and was really just a throwaway to appease the conservative base. The truth is that the citizenship exam has always been given in English and since the 1960's it has been impossible to naturalize without a decent understanding of the language. How is the government going to "mandate English" to people who are living completely outside the system anyways? If that is really a problem, it is only peripherally related to the illegal immigraiton issue.

The reason that reform has to be comprehensive is that if all we do is increase enforcement, it will start a bit of an arms race at the border between smugglers and enforcement agencies. Strong enforcement without some changes to the immigration quotas will only drive more border activity underground. We need to increase enforcement while reducing both the demand for illegal workers and the supply of illegal immigrants. That's the only way this will actually be effective.

[Fergasun]

no that is not a compromise at all. That is giving the anti-immigrant groups exactly what they want. If we start enforcing before having a guest worker plan then your plan is simply massive deportation, which is as far to the extreme as you can get without wanting executions. This plan is the middle ground.

You really think we will enforce well enough to get 11+ Million Illegal Immigrants to leave the country? What I'm hoping for is enforcement that dings employers harshly... leading to the employers having to prove they need the workers.

We all know that some amount of business is dependent on illegal workers. We don't know if it's because of "jobs American's won't do" or simply because businesses can undercut wages with illegal immigrants.

If we start stringent enforcement and lettuce doesn't go to $5 a head, and fast food "value meals" stay around the same price... it's evidence that there is no need to go forward with comprehensive immigration reform.

If we start stringent enforcement and the economy starts to tank... then we need some type of plan.

No one has proven to me that we need cheap labor to survive as a country... and I only hear the House really holding out for it. Makes you wonder who the Senate is working for? I think 6 years might be a little too long to go between a re-election... just look at how well the House represents the American people.

[Fergasun]

The reason that reform has to be comprehensive is that if all we do is increase enforcement, it will start a bit of an arms race at the border between smugglers and enforcement agencies. Strong enforcement without some changes to the immigration quotas will only drive more border activity underground. We need to increase enforcement while reducing both the demand for illegal workers and the supply of illegal immigrants. That's the only way this will actually be effective.

That's exactly what was said 20 years ago... the government is 20 years late on the enforcement part.

I'd rather see them start enforcement from 20 years ago amnesty.

[Art]

The English thing actually has nothing to do with the illegal problem and was really just a throwaway to appease the conservative base. The truth is that the citizenship exam has always been given in English and since the 1960's it has been impossible to naturalize without a decent understanding of the language. How is the government going to "mandate English" to people who are living completely outside the system anyways? If that is really a problem, it is only peripherally related to the illegal immigraiton issue.

The reason that reform has to be comprehensive is that if all we do is increase enforcement, it will start a bit of an arms race at the border between smugglers and enforcement agencies. Strong enforcement without some changes to the immigration quotas will only drive more border activity underground. We need to increase enforcement while reducing both the demand for illegal workers and the supply of illegal immigrants. That's the only way this will actually be effective.

I'm not talking about the citizenship exam. I'm talking about America. The government doesn't mandate English. Society does. We stop catering to people who won't adhere by societal norms. If you want to reduce demand for illegal workers, simply put one CEO of a company that employs them into jail for 10 years. All demand gone, cost to us zero .

[Titaw]

Why is it so hard for people to grasp the fact that these ILLEGAL immigrants are criminals? They should be punished by sending their rear ends back to the country in which they came. I can guarantee that the mass deportation is not as difficult as it seems. Everyone here can identify 90-99% of the illegal immigrants in their neighborhoods. law enforcement rounds them up and sends them packing. Any company that hires illegals are puinshed severely with steep fines AND jail time.

Trust me when I say this we do not want a mass naturalization. This will allow EVERY illegal worker the same rights as US citizens thus raising the wages of these workers to AT LEAST minimum wage and sending the economy into a tailspin.

[DjTj]

We all know that some amount of business is dependent on illegal workers. We don't know if it's because of "jobs American's won't do" or simply because businesses can undercut wages with illegal immigrants.

If we start stringent enforcement and lettuce doesn't go to $5 a head, and fast food "value meals" stay around the same price... it's evidence that there is no need to go forward with comprehensive immigration reform.

If we start stringent enforcement and the economy starts to tank... then we need some type of plan.

No one has proven to me that we need cheap labor to survive as a country...

Actually, I'll guarantee you that the economy won't tank. I believe that our country would survive just fine without illegal immigrants. As many people have said, our country has done just fine with lower numbers of immigrants in the past.

There is an open question as to whether we would be *better off* with or without the illegal immigrants, but our economy certainly isn't completely reliant on that labor. I think the economic argument is really a red herring as well. The problem isn't money; the problem is that there is huge difference between two numbers: (1) the number of people that can come and live in this country, and (2) the number of people that our laws allow to come here.

In the quest to equalize those numbers, I just don't think it is feasible (for a reasonably cost) to enforce our way out of this problem. Illegal labor is already entrenched in many industries, and the 11 million illegals already here would be pretty resourceful at finding ways to survive. We could probably make some substantial gains by ramping up enforcement quickly, but millions of people aren't just going to give up (especially those with families and other strong ties to the U.S.) We'll end up driving millions of people underground, and we'll have a new population of drug dealers, prostitutes, and gang members.

and I only hear the House really holding out for it. Makes you wonder who the Senate is working for? I think 6 years might be a little too long to go between a re-election... just look at how well the House represents the American people.

The Senate is able to look at these problems long-term, and that's really what this problem needs. Knee-jerk reactions are just going to create more problems down the road, and that's exactly what happenned with immigration "reform" in 1986.

That's exactly what was said 20 years ago... the government is 20 years late on the enforcement part.

I'd rather see them start enforcement from 20 years ago amnesty.

If we had a time-machine, we would probably all tell Reagan not to grant a general amnesty without having a reliable way to enforce the laws. However, technology has not blessed us with a time machine ... it has provided us with reliable methods of identification, as the President mentioned, and that was really the missing piece from the '86 reform.

It is simply not feasible to run a system based solely on government enforcement. We do not have an all-powerful gestapo in this country that can raid every place of employment. We need to be able to rely on employers to verify ID's - it's really very similar to our underage drinking laws: We can't have a cop outside every bar and inside every convenience store; we need to provide incentive for citizens to comply with the law.

Enforcement has to be based on employers being able to tell legal immigrants from illegals, and for small-time employers that was difficult without a standardized form of identification. For larger employers of illegals, the lack of standardized identification provided a convenient legal shield. If we could implement a better ID, it would close that loophole, but we would need to make sure that the employers choose the legal system rather than going underground, and the easiest and most effective way to do that is to offer them a carrot of temporary worker status along with the stick of federal agents looking over their shoulder.

[DjTj]

I'm not talking about the citizenship exam. I'm talking about America. The government doesn't mandate English. Society does. We stop catering to people who won't adhere by societal norms. If you want to reduce demand for illegal workers, simply put one CEO of a company that employs them into jail for 10 years. All demand gone, cost to us zero .

You clearly haven't been to Los Angeles, where society's norms speak a different language. Heck, even in the DC area, there are large neighborhoods where the norm isn't English. The United States has always been a diverse nation where many small communities have spoken a different language.

However, it has ALWAYS been true that learning English has been a stepping stone to a higher income and a better life. American society is doing a great job of enforcing that norm, and that is why immigrants will always continue to assimilate ... I waited tables with many Mexican immigrants for four years in Los Angeles, and every single one of them was trying to pick up more English on the job every day.

Also, enforcing the immigration laws harshly against large corporations would not reduce the demand to zero. It would have no effect on the independent contractors who are likely violating tax laws along with immigration laws. It certainly would have no effect on the organized crime that many immigration opponents like to link to illegals. Taking immigrants out of the above-the-table economy would simply push them to shadier areas of employment. Where there is a supply of labor, the market will create a demand. We need to push from both sides.

[DjTj]

Why is it so hard for people to grasp the fact that these ILLEGAL immigrants are criminals? They should be punished by sending their rear ends back to the country in which they came. I can guarantee that the mass deportation is not as difficult as it seems. Everyone here can identify 90-99% of the illegal immigrants in their neighborhoods. law enforcement rounds them up and sends them packing. Any company that hires illegals are puinshed severely with steep fines AND jail time.

How much is it going to cost to "send them packing." Do we drive them to the border, let them go, and watch them sneak back across in the next week? Do we buy everyone tickets to Guatemala? to Cuba? to China?

The problem has never been identifying illegal immigrants - as the President said, the border patrol picks up more illegals than it has jail space for them. The problem is the massive government expenditures that would be required to deport them.

[Fergasun]

The problem is the massive government expenditures that would be required to deport them.

Honest non-divisive question.

What about the massive government expendatures to go through with the Guest Worker Program? It seems like USCIS can't even process the current load... how can we expect them to process a whole lot more?

Second question.

How do we guarantee that this program will/won't continue under the next administration? I have aunts and uncles that applied for citizenship under a program Clinton opened up in 1998, 1999... something about higher skilled workers. When Bush was elected, he stopped this program, and now they are in limbo... but still working here under a greencard. How come we aren't discussing a quicker path to citizenship for them? They've been here for a decade, and pay taxes....

[luckydevil]

It pretty clear, well to me anyway, that illegal immigration will be the guise used to justify national ID cards.

[Art]

It pretty clear, well to me anyway, that illegal immigration will be the guise used to justify national ID cards.

We can only hope. Any system that ties the loose state systems for IDs together into a comprehensive, trackable national system would be excellent.

[@DCGoldPants]

I believe I heard they are already building a Fake National ID Card lab in falls Church.

Always one step ahead.

[The 12th Commandment]

It's amazing to me how shallow it is to assume a person from a third world country, educated to maybe the fourth grade could so easily learn another language at an advanced age. It doesn't work that way. Some first generation immigrants are smart and have enough self esteem to do that, most don't. And that held true for previous generations of immigrants as well. Their kids learn english and assimilate.

Most of these people are immigrating not for themselves, but for their family. This is evidenced by the fact that they send so much money back to Mexico. I know things are different when you stray from the border, but you could never tell who is illegal or legal here based simply on the language they speak.

[HSW]

Why is it so hard for people to grasp the fact that these ILLEGAL immigrants are criminals? They should be punished by sending their rear ends back to the country in which they came. I can guarantee that the mass deportation is not as difficult as it seems. Everyone here can identify 90-99% of the illegal immigrants in their neighborhoods. law enforcement rounds them up and sends them packing. Any company that hires illegals are puinshed severely with steep fines AND jail time.

Trust me when I say this we do not want a mass naturalization. This will allow EVERY illegal worker the same rights as US citizens thus raising the wages of these workers to AT LEAST minimum wage and sending the economy into a tailspin.

So what army is supposed to round up these millions of immigrants? :doh: Who

is going to pay thier salaries? :doh: You say that they should be arrested

based on someone SAYING they are illegal? How many honest hispanic

citizens will have to go through a "police" arrest or will be forced to show

ID every time some idiot says they are illegal? :doh: How about this, if you

report someone as illegal, and it turns out that they are not then that

person should get arrested for making false charges. There is a right

way and a wrong way to do things. We can control illegal immigration

without abusing the rights of our citizens.

[Destino]

This thread should be called "Property of DjTj"

[Destino]

Why is it so hard for people to grasp the fact that these ILLEGAL immigrants are criminals? They should be punished by sending their rear ends back to the country in which they came. I can guarantee that the mass deportation is not as difficult as it seems. Everyone here can identify 90-99% of the illegal immigrants in their neighborhoods. law enforcement rounds them up and sends them packing. Any company that hires illegals are puinshed severely with steep fines AND jail time.

Trust me when I say this we do not want a mass naturalization. This will allow EVERY illegal worker the same rights as US citizens thus raising the wages of these workers to AT LEAST minimum wage and sending the economy into a tailspin.

I think you would potentially create a dangerous situation if the President goes on national TV and tells 10 million or more illegal immigrants they are all going to be deported immediately. There could be rioting, violence, economic considerations, etc etc etc. Why risk any of that when there is a better way? There is no reason I can see and as the Predident said the best way is a "rational middle ground" that changes the system with the least amount of problems.

[Prosperity]

This thread should be called "Property of DjTj"

This and every other immigration thread, he knows his stuff.

[Midnight Judges]

This and every other immigration thread, he knows his stuff.

He doesn't just know it, he owns it.:notworthy

[ashburnskinsfan]

I'd like to see us do more, mandate English as the language expected of every person here

Does this apply to Alaskan, Hawaiian and other Native Americans too?

[Fergasun]

He doesn't just know it, he owns it.:notworthy

He has quite a wealth of knowledge about immigration. Reading and knowing something from a book is completely different from living in the reality of the situation. He knows a lot of about how the system should work, but I've come not to trust immigration lawyers. They have the most to gain if we increase legal immigration.... tons more work for the next 15 years! (That doesn't mean I don't trust him... just immigration lawyers in general).

Wait 5-10 years until illegal immigration begins to drastically affect your lives.

I wonder how many of you would feel if you were living in Los Angeles area or in a border state. It's hard to imagine until you really experience massive illegal immigration on a local level.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I wonder how many of you would feel if you were living in Los Angeles area or in a border state. It's hard to imagine until you really experience massive illegal immigration on a local level.

We expierence plenty of it here in Northern Va

There was a big issue in Herndon whether or not to set up a day worker center

You go to any 7-11 at 6 am in this area, they are out there waiting to get picked up and looking for work

The subcontractors I use are all legal and have paperwork, but I am 99 percent sure they use illegals and for the most part these illegals do some damn good work

[Fergasun]

SkinsHokieFan,

Northern Virginia is still quite a ways from the southern border.

Another thing I don't understand... why doesn't Bush just start enforcing the law on the books?

He has all the power to do Enforcement NOW! How come Lou Dobbs is the only one pointing this out?