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Why the Redskins don't need a G.M. - Essay


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Om, we could go around and around on this one literally forever. I see your points, some of which have merit. However in the end I think we'll just have to wait and see. The true test of who's right on this one will ultimately be determined by what happens to the club when Gibbs is no longer working there. Only at that point will we be able to observe whether or not Vinny has grown as you (and others) assert or whether he's still just Snyder's lapdog.

Which is what a lot of us have said. Course, it may be a moot point if Vinny leaves at some point during Gibbs tenure, or leaves afterwards.

If we see pretty much what we did before, i.e. a few .500 seasons with a precipitous drop off to mediocrity as Gibbs' players are replaced we'll all know what happened. Until then you'll always have the out of saying "Don't rock the boat" and "Prove Vinny's involvement in prior player moves", neither of which is really a concrete answer to the objections raised by some of us in this thread.

Unfortunatly, what we have of Vinny pre-Gibbs is one season with Turner, where there was a lot of adjustment and turmoil, and two seasons with Spurrier, which most of us in the postmortem judged lacking as a head coach. Too many variables in there to really single him out.

I guess the only way we'd really know, maybe, is if he's getting players for a coach we know is good, and failing there. Course, with this org, there are variables all over the place. Hopefully, enough stay constant to see what the problem is.

Jason

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To me, what’s gotten cartoonish is your total unwillingness to even consider what’s been repeated over and over, by me and others ...

1) that you don’t mess with success in the NFL. More specifically, when something is working as well and as quickly as the Skins FO right now, you'd better be DAMN sure you're not going to muck it up in your zeal to try to "fix" what ain't broken.

You lost me right there. The Skins are on the right track -- young team that made the playoffs. Set at most positions. And what do the Skins do? THEY MESS WITH SUCCESS! The bring in Al Saunders to change things. Joe Gibbs saw an opportunity to improve the team... and so he did so.

Don't mess with success? Why did Gibbs totally revamp the receiving corps? Don't mess with success? Why dump Lavar?

"Don't mess with success" only makes sense if you're satisfied with the team and you don't want any more improvement. "Don't mess with success" is not the philosophy of a team trying to win the Superbowl.

Thankfully, Joe Gibbs doesn't agree with you. He's out there right now "messing" with success.

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You lost me right there. The Skins are on the right track -- young team that made the playoffs. Set at most positions. And what do the Skins do? THEY MESS WITH SUCCESS! The bring in Al Saunders to change things. Joe Gibbs saw an opportunity to improve the team... and so he did so.

Don't mess with success? Why did Gibbs totally revamp the receiving corps? Don't mess with success? Why dump Lavar?

"Don't mess with success" only makes sense if you're satisfied with the team and you don't want any more improvement. "Don't mess with success" is not the philosophy of a team trying to win the Superbowl.

Thankfully, Joe Gibbs doesn't agree with you. He's out there right now "messing" with success.

I think you just shot down you're own arguement. If Gibbs takes the initiative to improve the team wherever he thinks he can, why would Vinny Cerrato be the lone exception? Obvioulsy, Gibbs thinks a little more of him than you.

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I think you just shot down you're own arguement. If Gibbs takes the initiative to improve the team wherever he thinks he can, why would Vinny Cerrato be the lone exception? Obvioulsy, Gibbs thinks a little more of him than you.

Why do you think so? Gibbs clearly feels comfortable making changes in the coaching staff. He hired every one of them. But he's left the rest of the organization alone. He's taken ownership of the coaching staff and the roster, but I've never heard a single story about him hiring or firing a scout, a secretary, a ticket salesman, an usher... have you?

You seem to think that if Gibbs hasn't yet fired the assistant groundskeeper, Gibbs implicitly LOVES the work of the assistant groundskeeper. Is that logical?

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Nice tapdance.

Let me know when and if you plan to actually answer the question. :)

Meanwhile ...

Joe Gibbs saw an opportunity to improve the team... and so he did so.

Don't mess with success? Why did Gibbs totally revamp the receiving corps? Don't mess with success? Why dump Lavar?

"Don't mess with success" only makes sense if you're satisfied with the team and you don't want any more improvement. "Don't mess with success" is not the philosophy of a team trying to win the Superbowl.

Thankfully, Joe Gibbs doesn't agree with you. He's out there right now "messing" with success.

... you've cleverly pointed out how proactive Gibbs has been in improving his areas of perceived need, yet failed, once again, to connect the dots.

What area has he NOT apparently seen that need?

Hmm?

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... you've cleverly pointed out how proactive Gibbs has been in improving his areas of perceived need, yet failed, once again, to connect the dots.

What area has he NOT apparently seen that need?

Hmm?

Read one post up for your answer. You should know this one!

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Nice tapdance.

Let me know when and if you plan to actually answer the question. :)

Meanwhile ...

... you've cleverly pointed out how proactive Gibbs has been in improving his areas of perceived need, yet failed, once again, to connect the dots.

What area has he NOT apparently seen that need?

Hmm?

Ticketsalesmen, groundkeepers and ushers, all of whom apparently have as much to do with football operations as VP of football operations :rolleyes: Get over it guys, no one person makes the decisions in this organization. That's the beauty of it. Gibbs has little ego and can therefore listen to opinions from everyone even if they disagree with him. Gibbs has the final say in personnel decisions and everyone has their input.

From what I've read, it's my understanding that VC serves as the leader and organizer of the scouting department responsible mostly for the gathering and organizing of as much info as possibly on each potential player. In that role, he's done a hell of a job. Seeing as how Gibbs makes the final decision, Synder stays out of the decision making process while handling the financial/contract end, Vinny gives everyone all the pertinent info and Gibbs then leans on his position coaches to make a final decision. Seems to me they have a pretty well thought out and organized process to selecting people that works very well.

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From what I've read, it's my understanding that VC serves as the leader and organizer of the scouting department responsible mostly for the gathering and organizing of as much info as possibly on each potential player. In that role, he's done a hell of a job.

See, this really bothers me. It tells me how emotional you guys are about Vinny. You say he's done a hell of a job. Based on what? What data do you have that tells you that he's done a hell of a job? I find that remarkable. You've seen all the evidence -- the results of his work -- and you still conclude that he's done a hell of a job?

Please, tell us what lead you to that conclusion. Is it the draft picks? The free agents? The undrafted rookies he's found?

I think this Vinny-love might be a mental disorder.

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From what I've read, it's my understanding that VC serves as the leader and organizer of the scouting department responsible mostly for the gathering and organizing of as much info as possibly on each potential player. In that role, he's done a hell of a job.

Under what possible standard has he done a hell of a job?

This is what is frustrating about this argument. Outside of the first round, I don't think we've had a successful draft since Snyder has been owner. I think that includes this year as well, though it is obviously way too early to make that determination.

The draft is clearly Vinny's area, since no one is really clear on how free agents are signed. It seems like Gibbs does most of the heavy lifting there.

Since the draft should be Vinny's turf....and the drafts have pretty much universally stunk...how is Vinny doing a hell of a job?

On another note, I would accept the argument that Gibbs wants a weak personnel man in order to keep his authority if the Patriots did not exist. Bellichik has final say on everything, though Pioli is actually, you know, smart and talented. If we put in a talented 40 year old, Gibbs' authority would not be challenged.

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You lost me right there. The Skins are on the right track -- young team that made the playoffs. Set at most positions. And what do the Skins do? THEY MESS WITH SUCCESS! The bring in Al Saunders to change things. Joe Gibbs saw an opportunity to improve the team... and so he did so.

Don't mess with success? Why did Gibbs totally revamp the receiving corps? Don't mess with success? Why dump Lavar?

"Don't mess with success" only makes sense if you're satisfied with the team and you don't want any more improvement. "Don't mess with success" is not the philosophy of a team trying to win the Superbowl.

Thankfully, Joe Gibbs doesn't agree with you. He's out there right now "messing" with success.

THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT!!!!!!!! Joe Gibbs has clearly defined the areas he sees need to be improved, which included his own friggin offense, and for some reason Vinny is still here. He is clearly not just standing pat. Do you think it is possible that Gibbs sees Vinny as a friggin asset???

Well, gosh no, because he didn't make the personnel moves that would have made the two incompetents that preceeded Joe Gibbs get to the SB. Nevermind that in spite of Vinny clearly not giving Joe Gibbs credible data, according to this thread, Gibbs has managed to make stellar moves in the first two years with the third year TBD.

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By the way, we are now standing at the logical conclusion of "In Gibbs We Trust." Because Joe has not forced Vinny back to NFL.com or whatever website would pay him to babble, many have come to the conclusion that Vinny is now suddenly competent. The same logic has been applied to every questionable decision.

You guys are really trying to take the fun out of being a sports fan in that we are apparently no longer allowed to criticize anything our favorite teams.

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See, this really bothers me. It tells me how emotional you guys are about Vinny. You say he's done a hell of a job. Based on what? What data do you have that tells you that he's done a hell of a job? I find that remarkable. You've seen all the evidence -- the results of his work -- and you still conclude that he's done a hell of a job?

Please, tell us what lead you to that conclusion. Is it the draft picks? The free agents? The undrafted rookies he's found?

I think this Vinny-love might be a mental disorder.

First of all, I'm not talking about his work pre-Gibbs. Second, even if I was you have no way whatsoever of showing me that ANY of the FA or draft picks were Vinny's decision or his guys. NON WHATSOEVER. In fact, I challenge you to show me any prove at all that Vinny has been in charge of player selection at any time. Shall we continue?

Now that we're back to what I was actually talking about, IN HIS CURRENT ROLE UNDER GIBBS WHICH I OUTLINED IN THE PREVIOUS POST, I believe VC has done a good job. Why? Because we've hit multiple homeruns on personnel and Gibbs has lavished praise on the scouting department. And before you get the chance, I'll go ahead and predict your next response and refute that to :D

MRMADD: "So now Vinny gets credit for hitting homeruns on our recent personnel moves but he's not responsible for the earlier failures?!? :doh:"

No. All Vinny gets credit for is playing his role in the process, which I gather to be as a data gatherer/organizer/organizing the scouting department. A scout manager if you will. He's not responsible for the recent successes solely and he's not solely responsible for past failures. I place the past failures more on Spurrier/Turner and the recent successes on Gibbs. All I can say is, Vinny has a role in the process, as does everybody to varying degrees and all indications are he's doing a good job at that.

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Nice tapdance.

Let me know when and if you plan to actually answer the question. :)

Meanwhile ...

... you've cleverly pointed out how proactive Gibbs has been in improving his areas of perceived need, yet failed, once again, to connect the dots.

What area has he NOT apparently seen that need?

Hmm?

Actually this argument can go both ways. That is, one side says Gibbs keeps Cerrato around as a "useful boob" while others contend that his continued presence shows that Gibbs is satisfied with his performance. Obviously either side could be right on this one.

I have given my reasoning behind the "useful boob" argument already. However, I'd like to see the pro Vinny side point out what about his performance both pre and post Gibbs 2.0 would support the latter argument. Hmm?

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I think the main problem here is that you guys think VC is supposed to or at one time was a general manager and in charge of player selection. I don't think he was ever supposed to be that. Just because he may not be good in that role doesn't mean he doesn't have value for the organization.

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First of all, I'm not talking about his work pre-Gibbs. Second, even if I was you have no way whatsoever of showing me that ANY of the FA or draft picks were Vinny's decision or his guys. NON WHATSOEVER. In fact, I challenge you to show me any prove at all that Vinny has been in charge of player selection at any time. Shall we continue?

Now that we're back to what I was actually talking about, IN HIS CURRENT ROLE UNDER GIBBS WHICH I OUTLINED IN THE PREVIOUS POST, I believe VC has done a good job. Why? Because we've hit multiple homeruns on personnel and Gibbs has lavished praise on the scouting department. And before you get the chance, I'll go ahead and predict your next response and refute that to :D

MRMADD: "So now Vinny gets credit for hitting homeruns on our recent personnel moves but he's not responsible for the earlier failures?!? :doh:"

No. All Vinny gets credit for is playing his role in the process, which I gather to be as a data gatherer/organizer/organizing the scouting department. A scout manager if you will. He's not responsible for the recent successes solely and he's not solely responsible for past failures. I place the past failures more on Spurrier/Turner and the recent successes on Gibbs. All I can say is, Vinny has a role in the process, as does everybody to varying degrees and all indications are he's doing a good job at that.

There are two aspects of player acquisition. The draft and free agency.

The draft is almost universally accepted as Vinny's domain. If I'm wrong, please tell me. And the Redskins stink at the draft. They have stunk at the draft since Vinny came on board. I am confident in stating unequivocably, therefore, that Vinny stinks at the draft.

Then there is free agency. The Skins are so active in free agency and spend so much money, there is bound to be a fair number of successes. Prior to the arrival of Gibbs, we pretty much stunk at this too. Now, we are better, though I think the change in philosophy (younger players) plus great cap management gets the lion's share of the credit. But - even though I am not sure he is that involved - I will give Vinny a gold star for post-Gibbs Free Agency.

Here is the final grade: Pre-Gibbs draft: F

Post-Gibbs draft: D+

Pre Gibbs Free Agency: C-

Post Gibbs Free Agency: A-

Baesed on that criteria, Vinny is still a C- minus personnel guy.

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You guys make this enormous leap of faith -- that because Joe hasn't fired Vinny, Vinny is doing a "hell of a job." Just like Brownie was doing a "hell of a job" at FEMA when Katrina hit, right? But you can't cite a single person who's not a coach or a player who Gibbs has fired. Not one person in the entire front office. And you can't cite one single thing that Vinny has done that qualifies him as competent.

And you can't bear to think that Joe might let Vinny stick around because he's a useful boob. Further, you close your eyes and hum "ba-ba-ba-ba-ba..." anytime anyone mentions Vinny's lousy performance before Joe got here.

What color is the sky in your world, Vinny-lovers?

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Baesed on that criteria' date=' Vinny is still a C- minus personnel guy.[/quote']

You are a very generous grader.

It's funny -- no one around here would stand for a C- running back. Or a C- quarterback. The same guys defending Vinny would be calling for the head of a C- long snapper. They'd rave back and forth about how a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Good ol' Vinny. Our C-.

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Don't mess with success? Why did Gibbs totally revamp the receiving corps? Don't mess with success? Why dump Lavar?

Huh? How were both of these actions messing with success?

Revamping the receiving corps - Um, we still have Santana Moss and Chris Cooley, don't we? The unproductive (unsuccessful) parts of the receiving corps have been revamped, so how is that messing with success?

Dumping Lavar - He barely played, so how is that messing with success?

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The unproductive parts of the receiving corps have been revamped, so how is that messing with success?

Right! Exactly! And all we're suggesting is to revamp the unproductive part of the front office. How disruptive would that be?

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Keep serving up softballs, guys, and I'll keep hitting 'em out of the park...

Swing and a miss, you only got off because I was on my way home from work :D

Listen, I'm not saying I want Vinny to our GM. All I'm saying is he's obviously got to be good at something (even if that something is being a useful boob) or he'd be gone by now. I'm not claiming he's responsible for our recent player acquistion prowess but I'm not so shortsighted as to think he was responsible for Spurrier and Turner's decisions

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Swing and a miss, you only got off because I was on my way home from work :D

Listen, I'm not saying I want Vinny to our GM. All I'm saying is he's obviously got to be good at something (even if that something is being a useful boob) or he'd be gone by now. I'm not claiming he's responsible for our recent player acquistion prowess but I'm not so shortsighted as to think he was responsible for Spurrier and Turner's decisions

Fair enough.

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Just to use him as an example' date=' because there are always rumors that he is leaving because he hates Bellichik.

If Scott Pioli suddenly resigned in order to pursue opportunites elsewhere, would anyone recommend that Danny fire up Redskins One and fly to Boston? Or should we continue to give Vinny the loyalty?[/quote']

They don't do the same thing, they don't have the same job. We run our organization differently. Everbody has input, everyone adds their :2cents: and Joe makes the final decision. We have no need for a GM, our staff and scouting department are all on the same page about what kind of players we want and have done a superb job in identifying and getting those players. Even if we did hire Pioli I don't think it would necessarily affect Vinny Cerrato's standing or job.

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They don't do the same thing, they don't have the same job. We run our organization differently. Everbody has input, everyone adds their :2cents: and Joe makes the final decision. We have no need for a GM, our staff and scouting department are all on the same page about what kind of players we want and have done a superb job in identifying and getting those players. Even if we did hire Pioli I don't think it would necessarily affect Vinny Cerrato's standing or job.

Pioli is not a GM and does not have final say in New England. They run their front office roughly the same. It would just be an upgrade, not an overall change.

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