U.S. invasion responsible deaths of over 250,000 civilians in Iraq

[NoCalMike]

The civilian deaths are not even the entire story. How about the way we are setting up their society to be a conservative/libertarian Big Corporate Business Utopia. Their constitution has BANNED labor unions. Go read all the big business friendly laws that have been enacted. It seems like Bush and his Big Business cronies want to install a Corporate friendly enviornment in there. Right now they at over 50% Unemployment. How can you expect a country that has 50% of their people unemployed, to sit by peacefully and not do anything about it?

[Thiebear]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/12/iraq.livingsurvey/

NoCalMike:

Both Deaths and Unemployment are shown different in the CNN article..

I think Murtha was reporting a common misconception....

[Larry]

there are better to reasons to justify withdrawal - none that have convinced me though.

Not disagreeing with your post, but that last phrase knod of jumps off the page at me.

Me, I was under the impression that you're supposed to justify war. Peace is supposed to be it's own justification.

[nonniey]

Not disagreeing with your post, but that last phrase knod of jumps off the page at me.

Me, I was under the impression that you're supposed to justify war. Peace is supposed to be it's own justification.

You have the misconception that withdrawal means peace.

[skinfan133]

So, what's a good number? Where's the line in the sand or cemetary of acceptability? Is forty thousand civilian deaths understandable and acceptable, but 250,000 isn't. How many died after the "fighting" war ended? There are many people in this thread who are pretty ghoulish or callous about human life.

look at my earlier post and you'll understand where i come from.

edit: first one i did, i think its on page two

[skinfan133]

The way I see it those who want us out or never wanted us to go in and use humantarian reasons as their argument are the callous ones. If you could go back and advise President Clinton to intervene in Rwanda would you have? Here is a tougher one how about Cambodia in the late 1970s? Dafur today?We didn't come here for humanitarian reasons to be sure, but don't use humanitarian reasons to push for us to leave, you won't have a leg to stand on (there are better to reasons to justify withdrawal - none that have convinced me though).

and what about somalia? i think we should kick clintons ass for pulling out too soon. if we are atacked like we were you dont retreat fr good, you regroup gather resurces sen in the heavy armor and get rid of your enemies to help those in need, not pull out over 19 american deaths to condemn thousands, hundreds of thousands of people to starvation and fear.

[luckydevil]

The civilian deaths are not even the entire story. How about the way we are setting up their society to be a conservative/libertarian Big Corporate Business Utopia. Their constitution has BANNED labor unions. Go read all the big business friendly laws that have been enacted. It seems like Bush and his Big Business cronies want to install a Corporate friendly enviornment in there. Right now they at over 50% Unemployment. How can you expect a country that has 50% of their people unemployed, to sit by peacefully and not do anything about it?

Please don't lump libertarians with conservatives. Genuine libertarians oppose the war and are adamantly opposed to corporatism. You clearly don't understand libertarianism.

[skinfan133]

Please don't lump libertarians with conservatives. You clearly don't understand libertarianism.

i've always wondered.... what sets libertarians apart from the rest of us???

[luckydevil]

i've always wondered.... what sets libertarians apart from the rest of us???

Who is us?

[skinfan133]

Who is us?

republicans, democrats, it doesnt matter, what makes a libertarian a libertarian?

[luckydevil]

what makes a libertarian a libertarian?

Interesting question, simply I believe the state causes more harm than good.

Jim Henley said it even better words

"I am viscerally anti-bully and government is the biggest bully around. I don't believe government is inherently a force for good. I do not accept that democracy is a process by which "we" govern "ourselves." I believe it is a process by which a larger group imposes its will on the smaller, and the most energetic and glib busybodies impose their will on the larger. Living on the fringes of DC, I have occasion to drive or walk by the White House and the Capital from time to time. I am not stirred. The hot dog vendor exchanging food for money fills me with more admiration than the bureaucrats walking past him, immersed in discussion of what they surely think of as "the public's business."

[Crazyhorse1]

We all know where you're coming from SF13. Everyone that's ever put on a uniform mourns one American servicemember's death. I think most Americans still do, though I wonder sometimes.

That said, comparing our casualty numbers now to past wars is a joke. I'm just guessing, but what, 600,000 in our own civil war (granted both sides were "Americans"), probably 400,000 in WWII, 70 or 80,000 in Vietnam? The only war that rivals this one in terms of "low" numbers of American casualties is the first Gulf War.

I don't know if it's good or bad, but our military is more "humane" than ever. (Abu Ghraib was an isolated incident, save it.) It would be far safer to American troops to carpet bomb the **** out of Iraq. That's how we used to do it. The way I see it, American lives are being lost in order to help prevent civilian casualties. Their sacrifice should be commended, painful as it is.

I was riding right along with your facts and logic big guy until the end when you called Abu Ghraib an isolate incident. I've written on our human rights violations extensively and researched the matter thoroughly and the it is indisputable that torture has been systemic during the Bush Administration throughout Gitmo, Afghanistan, and Iraq, and has existed as initiated by the Bush Administration in other courtries as well in re to rendition and secret prisons.

Here's another correction. We have never carpet bombed a country we are at not at war with, with the exception of Cambodia, but even in the case of Cambodia we did not enter that country pretending to be the liberators of the country before we bombed civilian sites.

We were at war with Japan and with Germany. We are not at war with Iraq. We invaded Iraq to achieve regime change and support the Iraqis people create a viable democracy. To help...not torture and kill...to help...get the difference.

[Thiebear]

Interesting question, simply I believe the state causes more harm than good.

Jim Henley said it even better words

"I am viscerally anti-bully and government is the biggest bully around. I don't believe government is inherently a force for good. I do not accept that democracy is a process by which "we" govern "ourselves." I believe it is a process by which a larger group imposes its will on the smaller, and the most energetic and glib busybodies impose their will on the larger. Living on the fringes of DC, I have occasion to drive or walk by the White House and the Capital from time to time. I am not stirred. The hot dog vendor exchanging food for money fills me with more admiration than the bureaucrats walking past him, immersed in discussion of what they surely think of as "the public's business."

Being a new Libertarian I put it more like this...

Name ONE thing the Government took over and did a better job, than private industry? Because of a 40year Republican minority I believed they would change things: Wrong again...

But my views don't extend to War as its Gov't vs. Gov't (military/military) and the reasons say for a US sweep of Darfar would be to keep another 800k from dying..

[Burgold]

Burgold what is a good number since your asking?

I'd say 50k or less is fine... because it is in an attempt to stop the genocide...

You can't be afraid that someone who uses human shields and mass graves and chemical weapons and kindergarden classes above his HQ, and children in prison may cause the numbers to go up more than normal. Therefore, leaving him in place and there not being ANY fix to the situation.

you can have "the same" as always or worse once France / Russia/ Germany got the Sanctions lifted and Saddam and Sons could go back to normal

(And you know they would have based on their deals)...

or you can have: http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq/rebuilding.html

Whats more ghoulish?

Iraq before vs. now..

Sudan before vs. now..

I'd say those that continue to let it happen is more ghoulish...

They're tricky numbers because the insurgency/civil war wouldn't exist if we weren't there, but Sadam's reign was monstrous-- so comparing how many Iraqis would be killing Iraqis without US presence is tough. It's getting harder to make the argument (especially short term) that we've made life better. The question I wonder about is of the 250,000 civilians who have died (and I think it is fair to include heart attacks and strokes because since the infrastructure has not been repaired medical care has become worse and there are people unable to get care who may have) anyway, of the 250,000 who have died, how many have died since the war ended and the occupation began.

Civilian Deaths happen in a war. It is a sad result of being in the middle of insanity. Has the number been reasonably steady (deaths/year), has it increased, or are most of the civilian deaths part of the invasion phase? Ruling out Fullajah makes sence, because to me that was a millitary action and again civilian fallout is a result of war. We have been told Iraq is not in the midst of Civil War and that the picture is remarkably rosier than the media has painted. These numbers contradict that. Even if they are close to what was lost during Sadam's regime, you would hope that slaying the dragon would stop a most of the loss.

[Thiebear]

Did you say Medical care is worse? Care to expand on that?

BAQUBAH, Iraq, Feb. 28, 2006 — After a year under construction, the Baqubah General Hospital is finished, complete with a new incinerator and reverse osmosis water treatment system; plumbing and sewer system upgrade; architectural renovations; emergency backup generator and repair of existing elevators. The completed project was accepted by U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the Directorate General of Health.

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BAGHDAD, Iraq, Sept. 1, 2005 — More has been invested for health care in Sadr City this past year than over 15 years under Saddam Hussein.

In fact, it was 1986 when Iraq’s last new hospital was built.

The six primary health care centers in Sadr City, which are 20 to 40 percent finished, are designed to help ease Al Baladi’s huge outpatient load and should be ready in late fall. Each of those facilities, with an average price tag of $600,000, is a two-story structure which will offer 1,155 square meters of space for medical/dental examinations including X-ray capabilities, testing laboratory, pharmacy, vaccination, and public education.

“This capability will dramatically improve the health care available to Sadr City’s 2.5 million residents,” according to U.S. Army Capt. Jack Mooney, assistant brigade engineer with the 2nd Brigade Combat Team, Third Infantry Division.

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Najaf, Iraq – Damaged by war and severe neglect, the Najaf Maternity Hospital struggled to meet its patients’ needs in the aftermath of battle and the ravages of the former regime. But the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Gulf Region South District (GRS) has been working hard since Oct. 25 of last year to ensure that the quality of patient care increases each day.

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TALLIL, Iraq, July 6, 2005 — With its infant mortality rate for children under 5 a staggering 14.2 percent and 12.8 percent for children under 12 months old, Iraq needs much more than a temporary solution to its crippling dilemma.

According to the United Nations Children’s Fund, these figures have risen sharply since 1991. Now, with the help of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Gulf Region South District (GRS) and the Project and Contracting Office (PCO), 150 new primary health care facilities, of three different types, are being built, with 60 scheduled to be constructed in the southern Iraq, according to Juan Vargas, PCO health program manager.

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The Taleb Janabi Hospital, a privately-owned facility, will receive $150,000 in response progrram funds and the owner, Dr. Taleb Janabi, will contribute an additional $50,000.

This case is unusual because typically response progrram funds can only be spent on public projects. However, this is the only hospital within the city.

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The clinic, in the Al Zahara Quarter of Balad, is located just across the street from Forward Operating Base PALIWODA, the Task Force’s “home” during their year long deployment to Iraq in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. The ceremony was attended by Soldiers from B Company “Regulators”, members of the Balad City Council, doctors and nurses from the clinic, and dozens of residents of the Al Zahara Quarter.

Guests were anxious to open the clinic, which took two months to build, as it will provide a much needed medical facility for the Quarter, home to some 3,000 locals Iraqis.

Prior to the project’s completion the Al Zahara Quarter did not have any medical facilities, forcing people to travel to the Balad General Hospital, located in downtown Balad, some five kilometers away, to receive medical treatment. The distance was difficult for these locals, as many do not have a car to drive to the hospital. The clinic is within a short walk of even the most widespread homes in the Quarter.

[Burgold]

This may be an assumption of mine, but last I heard infrastructure, power, water and services in most of Iraq had not returned to prewar levels. Mentally, I include hospitals in infrastucture, but I also figure if a hospital can't get adequate power, water, supplies, it probably also has other shortcomings. I know that some Iraqis have actually received American care which is superior to what they had in the past, but for the majority, it seems to me that if the roads, electricisty, water, and other systems are not functioning well then the neighborhood doctor or pharmacy probably has a harder time stocking up. There likely is fewer ambulances, emergency services running, and the places for treatment are harder to get to because of insurgency and other factors. Therefore, it seems reasonable that medical care is worse.

One example, in one city does not indicate the state of a nation.

[Thiebear]

Burgold: you should check out USAID.org projects and

http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq/rebuilding.html

and see that prewar vs. postwar is a bad corelation as prewar was a ponzi scheme.

Were not giving a fish.

Were not even teaching how to fish for the person.

Were setting up a fishing industry and teaching how to feed the entire village.

[Zguy28]

So are you part of the DIA or what? Cuz I went through the "process" with an intel agency, and the first rule was you don't talk about it. Ever. At all. Period

In particular on a Redskins message board.

I think here's the info your looking for. http://usmilitary.about.com/od/officerjob1/a/intel.htm

[Larry]

i've always wondered.... what sets libertarians apart from the rest of us???

Fairer skin, better hair, straighter teeth, and a brilliant intellect.

IMO (no doubt there have been, or will be, lots of other, inferior opinions) the term Libertarian, like any other political label, means different things to different people.

The broad, generic, term referrs to a political philosophy summarised by Franklin (?) that "That government governs best, which governs least." (Hope I got that quote right.)

In the modern incarnation, I see people self-labeling themselves as "Libertarian" because they believe in some of the following positions:

• Elimination of graduated taxation.
  
• Elimination of taxation of corporations, and of their owners.
  
• Elimination of prosecution of "victimless crimes". The most spectacular examples are the legalization of all prohibited drugs, but other examples include laws governing motorcycle helmets and seat belts.
  
• Some would argue that that principal should extend to the elimination of all, for example, consumer protection laws, on the claim that if people, say, chose to try an experimental drug to cure cancer then it's their choice.
  
• Many argue for the elimination of all civil rights laws, again on the grounds that if a business (or a person) choses to discriminate then it's his choice.
  
• It can (and no doubt has) been argued that, if taken to extremes, Libertarianism becomes anarchy.
  

Different self-labled Libertariens place different importance on different issues. Some will claim that if you're not in favor of eliminating the income tax you're one of The One True Faith. Others will say the same thing about legalizing heroin.

(IMO, it's also somewhat of a fashion statement: "See, just because I've voted the straight party line for the last 20 years, I'm not a political slave, I'm really a Libertarian, I just vote for Party X because I think they're closer." I, personally, fit that label, although in my defense, the party I've voted for lately isn't the same one I voted for 20 years ago.)

[Larry]

"I am viscerally anti-bully and government is the biggest bully around. I don't believe government is inherently a force for good. I do not accept that democracy is a process by which "we" govern "ourselves." I believe it is a process by which a larger group imposes its will on the smaller, and the most energetic and glib busybodies impose their will on the larger. Living on the fringes of DC, I have occasion to drive or walk by the White House and the Capital from time to time. I am not stirred. The hot dog vendor exchanging food for money fills me with more admiration than the bureaucrats walking past him, immersed in discussion of what they surely think of as "the public's business."

The quote I've liked is:

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting over what's for lunch.

Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

[Larry]

Being a new Libertarian I put it more like this...

Name ONE thing the Government took over and did a better job, than private industry?

When Bill Clinton passed his Federal Crime Bill, a lot of my Republican friends were vehemently announcing that the federal government had no legitimate interest in law enforcement, and that this was clearly an unconstitutional infringement on a local matter.

My counter-example was the NCIC, the FBI's national crime database. I listed it as an example of an appropriate use of federal authority. (My criteria for a "good" federal program is something that cannot (or should not) be done commercially, and cannot be performed at a lower level.)

This database hasn't put handcuffs on a single criminal. But I'd bet that it has empowered local law enforcement to arrest thousands (maybe millions) of them. It allows a cop who pulls over a speeder (or who questions a suspect, or otherwise interacts with a person) to know if that person has been convicted of a similar crime somewhere else. (Or has outstanding warrants.)

Yes, each individual state had (and likely still has) it's own database. But independant state databases don't talk to each other. Yeah, if the states feel like spending the money, they could share some information. But if they attempted it, it would cost more, be more error-prone, and it likely would never even be implimented between all states. (Yes, Oklahoma would likely share data with Texas. But it's very likely that they'd never share it with Maryland.)

In short, I said, it's a program that hasn't put a single cop on the street, but it makes the cop on the street better.

I'd list that as an example of a "good" government program.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

not our problem, not our fault.

Really? :mad:

[Thiebear]

quoted from Larry:

My counter-example was the NCIC, the FBI's national crime database. I listed it as an example of an appropriate use of federal authority. (My criteria for a "good" federal program is something that cannot (or should not) be done commercially, and cannot be performed at a lower level.)

The guy accross the street from me has 5 DWI's in 2 years?

The Databases are only good if they are kept up to date....

Law enforcement, Fire Department, Hospital care, Dmv should always be a National Database type stuff of problem/resolution... But like with our Intelligence community.

Having 10 billion letters and readin 3 doesnt help...