sableholic Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Ok I took some time to answer the topic question mainly because everyone and their mother seems to keep saying "Oh we overpaid", etc, etc. I know there are many threads concerning this and if the mods feel it should be merged than so be it, but I figured this would be the one thread to dispell the ideas that we overpaid. Maybe later on I'll even try and find players with similar stats as the ones we signed to compare. Theres a couple things that come up. Some people think Moss's contract is smaller than El's, some are shocked that Adam Archuleta's contract is so high etc. I'll try and address all those concerns along with the general overpaid idea. First off when talking about Moss's contract, lets remember that he was through a trade. To quote Vinny "We wanted to get [Moss] locked for the long term. That's better than going through free agency when the money probably gets a lot higher." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41609-2005May6.html With the new CBA there was a lot more money to be spread around, and as it has been, contracts generally increase from year to year. You can't pay a stellar QB the same thing you paid him in 2005. Just keep that in mind please, irregardless of the team the contract will generally be larger every year. Its just how it works. Even one years time means a higher salary. Moving on to some actual numbers now, let's look at a number of players contracts. Moss's Contract = 6 year 31 million dollar contract with 11 million guaranteed. 3 million Signing Bonus, but also has a $7m option bonus due in 2006 (that triggers the 2011 year on the contract, which he achieves if he plays 45 % of the downs any year b/w 2006 -2010) and a $910k roster bonus also due in 2006 which = 10.910 million. Randle El's Contract = 7 year 31 million dollar contract. Now just looking at that I don't see how anyone can say thats larger than Moss's, mind boggling to me. But anyways he got 11.5 million in guaranteed money, a 10 million signing bonus and a 1.5 million roster bonus. Pretty comparable guaranteed money wise, although it is definately a higher SB. Lloyd's Contract = I’m not sure where your problem is, hes playing under his tender from the 49ers. It's a standard tender, not sure how thats our fault or anything of that sorts. Carter= 6 year 30 million deal, He will receive at least $10 million in guaranteed money. Couldn't find SB numbers. Now another hot topic = AA vs ST. Archuletta = 6 year 30 million dollar deal. 10 million signing bonus. Just for note his Rookie contract = 5 year 6.35 million with 3 mill SB. He was drafted later in the first though. Taylor = 7 year deal worth 18 million. This is his rookie contract, it is generally determined by the standard money you pay at the draft pick, so not sure why you fault us. He got a 7.2 million signing bonus. However read this little quote "Sources told the Associated Press that the contract has escalator clauses that can make the deal worth up to $40 million over six years, and the seventh year can be voided." I don't know what the escalators are and how reasonable they are, but neither do you. So if he achieved all of them its already a bigger deal than AA. Either way though, it's a rookie contract and he will get a new huge deal, should I say "The highest paid Safety". Which is stupid because as others have pointed out, the salary cap goes up every year, so its pretty much guaranteed the newest signing will be the highest. Now lets just break some of those #'s down in terms of just Base Salaries. 2004 S. Taylor = .23 million 2005 S. Taylor = .305 mill Moss = .540 mill Patten = .665 mill 2006 S. Taylor = .425 million Archuleta = .585 million Moss = 1 mill Patten = 1.085 mill El = .585 mill Lloyd = 1.573 mill Carter = .585 mill 2007 S. Taylor = .625 mill Archuleta = .595 mill Moss = 2.85 mill Patten = 1.25 mill El = .595 mill Carter = .595 mill 2008 S. Taylor = .865 mill Archuleta = 1 mill Moss = 3.25 mill Patten = 1.5 mill El = .82 mill Carter = .92 mill 2009 S. Taylor = 1.105 mill Archuleta = 4 mill Moss = 3.7 mill Patten = 2 mill El = 4 mill Carter = 2 mill As I'm sure has been said a million times before, its standard Redskins contracts, we give three years of low salaries. That way if they don't produce to our likings, we can cut them. Just look for yourself at the numbers. In 2009, if those players aren't performing, they will be cut. Now say we cut all of them. AA's contract would then have been 3 years for 10 million + 2.18 million = 12.18 million dollars. avg of 4.06 million a year. Does that sound so bad to you? El's contract would be 3 years for 11.5 million + 2 = 13.5 million. Again not so bad, avg of 4.5 mill a year. Carter's contract would be 3 years for 10 million + 2.1 million = 12.1 million, which is about the same as AA's. What people just can't seem to comprehend is how the Redskins do their contracts. Lets just put it simply, they are backloaded. Small base salaries, relatively large signing bonus, and after year 3 the base salaries jump. What this means is it gives the Skins options. Say they suck, get injured, etc etc. We can let them go within the 3 years and will be fine. Say they do good, well we can renegotiate with them, offering them more guaranteed money and lowering their base salaries, which would help both parties. We can spread out that money and they can rest easy knowing they got more money. On that note, if we made a mistake with anybody, it was Patten. His numbers seem pretty high compared to his output. Sources: http://nflpa.org/Members/main.asp?subPage=Player+Search+Results http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=sportsNews&storyID=2006-03-14T134027Z_01_L14650519_RTRUKOC_0_US-NFL-REDSKINS.xml&archived=False http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/redskins/2006-03-13-redskins-haul_x.htm some other places I forget now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thespaniard Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Wow. Somebody didn't have anything to do.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#1AZRedskinfan Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Thanks for taking the time to share, a lot of people need some cap 101. That should clarify alot of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sableholic Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 Wow. Somebody didn't have anything to do.. lol yea I got a pretty light schedule for one reason or another today, so I figured I'd do all of this. oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thespaniard Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 One thing I will say about the subject - you show how Moss's contract and Randle El's contract are similar in guaranteed money, with El's being slightly more. That would be fine, except that they are not the same caliber WR. I would contend (just playing devils advocate here) that you paid slightly higher for a lesser WR. El has been a #3 and a #2 in his career, and yet he's making a little more than your #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsaddict Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Great post, your research is appreciated. I plan on pointing out a few of these stats to some Cowboy fans that have not shut up all week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thespaniard Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Really, the only contracts that are fair to compare are El's vs. Moss's, because they are the only two not decided by a predetermined slotting system (like the draft or RFA tenders): ST = rookie contract, so cant compare to AA's contract BL = RFA tender, set salary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sableholic Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 One thing I will say about the subject - you show how Moss's contract and Randle El's contract are similar in guaranteed money, with El's being slightly more. That would be fine, except that they are not the same caliber WR. I would contend (just playing devils advocate here) that you paid slightly higher for a lesser WR. El has been a #3 and a #2 in his career, and yet he's making a little more than your #1. fair enough, which is why I posted the quote from Vinny. It was a trade, not someone who was out in the open for all to try and grab up. I assume we tried to make sure others couldn't get him. Hence the driven up price. Also I would note that as you have said before, Moss had potential, but his numbers were not amazing. So if you look prior to this season, Moss's stats were 2416 yards, where as El has 2012 yards. Pretty similar. Moss has the edge, but I think he also has the edge in terms of the contract as I tried to show. Yes El makes more guaranteed money, but it still in overall terms is slightly less. However that said, El's contract has to be based on potential. He was in a primarily rushing offense as you know, so I would assume they are hoping he can produce more here. That remains to be seen of course. Really, the only contracts that are fair to compare are El's vs. Moss's, because they are the only two not decided by a predetermined slotting system (like the draft or RFA tenders):ST = rookie contract, so cant compare to AA's contract BL = RFA tender, set salary Yep, which is why I don't understand the AA vs ST comparisons. I guess I should find a person comparable to Carter, but I'm not in the mood. Just showing the breakdown of the base salaries I think should clear up a lot of misconceptions. I'm hoping at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadman Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Thanks for the writeup. It seems the key is the signing bonus. Players like because of the guarenteed money and Skins like it cuz they use it as leverage for providing lower saleries in the first 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thespaniard Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 fair enough, which is why I posted the quote from Vinny. It was a trade, not someone who was out in the open for all to try and grab up. I assume we tried to make sure others couldn't get him. Hence the driven up price. Also I would note that as you have said before, Moss had potential, but his numbers were not amazing. So if you look prior to this season, Moss's stats were 2416 yards, where as El has 2012 yards. Pretty similar. Moss has the edge, but I think he also has the edge in terms of the contract as I tried to show. Yes El makes more guaranteed money, but it still in overall terms is slightly less. However that said, El's contract has to be based on potential. He was in a primarily rushing offense as you know, so I would assume they are hoping he can produce more here. That remains to be seen of course. El has potential, but he wasn't even a #1 on his run-first team. Contracts are a lot about timing though, you are right. Moss signed his when he wasn't putting up great numbers. If he signed one now I am sure his contract would blow ARE's out of the water. You mention Carter's contract - any recently signed DE's to compare him to, perhaps Darren Howard ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckeyes420m Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 People who say that ARE is a lesser WR probably were the same people saying that Moss didnt deserve the money that he got when he signed with the Skins last year. Moss never put up the #s for the Jets that he put up last season for the Skins. So for the people who say that we paid more money for a lesser reciever may want to wait till the end of the season before saying it out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sableholic Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 El has potential, but he wasn't even a #1 on his run-first team. Contracts are a lot about timing though, you are right. Moss signed his when he wasn't putting up great numbers. If he signed one now I am sure his contract would blow ARE's out of the water. You mention Carter's contract - any recently signed DE's to compare him to, perhaps Darren Howard ? Darren Howard seems like a very good comparison. Their stats, injuries, years pro, etc are very similar. Howard is 3 years older, but still very similar and both good players when on the field. So lets compare them 6 year deal 30 million dollars, 10.5 guaranteed. Sound similar? It should, Carter's is 6 years 30 mill, at least 10 guaranteed. So I can't see how anyone could say we overpaid for him. On to the breakdown of base salaries: 2006 Carter = .585 mill Howard = 1 mill 2007 Carter = .595 mill Howard = 2 mill 2008 Carter = .92 mill Howard = 2.5 mill 2009 Carter = 2 mill Howard = 2 mill So, I thought maybe the Eagles front-loaded it, but 2010 actually goes up to 3.5 mill. Odd, but to each his own. So if both were to be cut in 2009 Carter's contract would be 3 years for 12.1 million Howard's contract would be 3 years for 10.5 mill + 5.5 mill = 16 million Difference = 3.9 million dollars. I'd say we got a steal, but of course that remains to be seen. Either way the contract in no way appears to be overpaying and simply is our standard and what looks like the standard money value for a DE of the calibur of Howard or Carter. Source: http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/PHI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twenty-eight Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 :chestram:Thanks for posting all that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thespaniard Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 People who say that ARE is a lesser WR probably were the same people saying that Moss didnt deserve the money that he got when he signed with the Skins last year. Moss never put up the #s for the Jets that he put up last season for the Skins. So for the people who say that we paid more money for a lesser reciever may want to wait till the end of the season before saying it out loud. I'll say it right now. Write it down if you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 One thing I will say about the subject - you show how Moss's contract and Randle El's contract are similar in guaranteed money, with El's being slightly more. That would be fine, except that they are not the same caliber WR. I would contend (just playing devils advocate here) that you paid slightly higher for a lesser WR. El has been a #3 and a #2 in his career, and yet he's making a little more than your #1. When Moss was brought in, most people rated him as a #3 who could play #2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thespaniard Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 When Moss was brought in, most people rated him as a #3 who could play #2. Is that why he was the #1 WR for the Jets the 2 years before he was traded, and he was traded for another #1 WR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckeyes420m Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 I'll say it right now. Write it down if you want. So when ARE puts up career #'s this season I guess you will say it again huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskinswhoopass Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Very nice break down... thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhutanibeast Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 im pretty sure that Sean taylors incentives were to make the pro bowl six out of the seven years. So he didnt trigger that $40 million option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thespaniard Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 So when ARE puts up career #'s this season I guess you will say it again huh? I'm saying that he's not the WR Santana is, and that he won't be at the end of the season either. He could get 600 yds this year and have a career year. That doesn't make him anywhere near the WR Moss is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Taylor's Legal Team Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 great post, my head hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouvan59 Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 One thing I will say about the subject - you show how Moss's contract and Randle El's contract are similar in guaranteed money, with El's being slightly more. That would be fine, except that they are not the same caliber WR. I would contend (just playing devils advocate here) that you paid slightly higher for a lesser WR. El has been a #3 and a #2 in his career, and yet he's making a little more than your #1. That's the thing though, the Skins are basically paying all non-QB, non-RBs the same money. Everybody is being brought in with a similar contract. I'd be willing to bet that Brandon Lloyd will soon sign an extension for the same amount. It's why we didn't offer Pierce and Smoot more than Washington and Springs. Makes for a much happier locker room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckeyes420m Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 I'm saying that he's not the WR Santana is, and that he won't be at the end of the season either. He could get 600 yds this year and have a career year. That doesn't make him anywhere near the WR Moss is.[/quoteSo you are saying that you are one of the few that thought (at the time of his signing) that Moss was a great WR that deserved that big of a contract? I get the feeling that you are like the majority and jumped on the Moss wagon after he broke out as a dominant WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thespaniard Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 I'm saying that he's not the WR Santana is, and that he won't be at the end of the season either. He could get 600 yds this year and have a career year. That doesn't make him anywhere near the WR Moss is.[/quoteSo you are saying that you are one of the few that thought (at the time of his signing) that Moss was a great WR that deserved that big of a contract? I get the feeling that you are like the majority and jumped on the Moss wagon after he broke out as a dominant WR. What? NO. I'm saying that RIGHT NOW Moss is a better WR, and he still will be at the end of the season. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimster Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 nice job Sable - some will still complain,because it's what they do, but it's appreciated someone takes the time to break it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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