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Confusion (Political, Spiritual, etc.) for a College Student


footballhenry

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Would've proved them wrong had we won the war. But defeatist mentality by the likes of Cronkite, Kerry, Fonda, etc. within our own borders prevented that from ever happening. Ever think about the possible implications had Saigon won the war? Every consider what that MAJOR defeat would've done to Moscow? Our demise in Vietnam only emboldened the Soviets to go into Afghanistan as well, which in turn, sent us to Afghanistan to ward the Soviet invasion off, by training future enemies of the state like Osama bin Laden. Of course, we now have the benefit of hindsight which you liberals use to make yourselves feel so smart. Instead, our efforts in Vietnam were lost in vain and it sent us into a nation-wide malaise post-war and through the Carter years. But hey, the doubters were proved right, right? WAY TO GO!!

:rolleyes:

Are you attempting to be witty by quizzing me dude or do you not know and need somebody to tell you? Or are you setting some lame trap for me so you can say, "AHA, I TOLD YOU SO!!" Whatever. Tell you what, since you don't know, I'll let you google it so YOU can "tell the class."

Regardless, victory was ours in Vietnam until people like you (who actually pride themselves on this) snatched defeat from the jaws of victory here in the U.S.

It's Defeatism 101, Destino. Shall I quiz you on that? Don't worry, you'll ace it.......with pride. Congratulations.

:finger:

Well I dont want to start a Vietnam debate here, that can be saved for another thread I suppose BUT you are aware that the Vietnamese were fighting for their independence (in their view) right? They would have fought us to their last man. Those people over there are simply amazing.

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Its always comforting to obtain info, advice, and guidance from the ES community:). I do appreciate the kind words, and advice. I am definitely learning and growing, I never really understood what 'enlightenment' per se was until now. Even if I do not change/alter my political persuasion, I most definitely have a deep understanding and respect for differing perspectives. Chom, as always thanks for the great advice (even though I know we sometimes dont agree;) ), thats a great poem and its too bad you get unjustly attacked (by hokie4redskins) for posting such a wise passage.

What I do find interesting is the different levels of advice you guys gave me. Some of you tell me to make up my own mind and keep studying, and others tell me Im being warped. :laugh: To each his own I say. I like the discussion thus far though....

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As many of you know (as Ive made many republican or conservative type threads/posts) I consider myself a conservative. I began as a strong staunch conservative years ago when I first began to become interested in our political system. Since then, and most notably during college I have seen myself drift towards the center and now I consider myself a moderate conservative. This being my junior year, I have begun to take my studies more seriously (as many of you know, procrastination can get the best of college students) and read and study more fervently. Since doing so I have really been challenging my line of thought. I do not know if you can call it 'enlightment', but I sure as hell know its confusion.

I used to be a very stubborn (I suppose you could call it that) Bush supporter but now I am not so sure, with countless reports about Katrina, prewar intel, etc. Many of the things I have been reading just doesn't add up. Furthermore I just got done reading a very good book about soldiers and what they experience in war (Parallels). I always have had a strong support and belief in military, and while that hasn't wavered much my opinion on going to war has. I did fully agree with the Iraq war before, but I really am not so sure anymore especially considering how seriously bad it has gotten over there (it seems everyone, even republicans, are recognizing it could be on the brink of civil war). The death and destruction that war brings, it just really hit me in the gut when I read what Vietnam Veterans experienced over there in the 60's and 70's, the horrors are unspeakable.

This is a very interesting time for me right now as it seems everything is being challenged for me. My spiritual beliefs, religion, politics, social life, etc. For example I used to be against gay marriage but after meeting and becoming friends with some gay people, I dont know. I just feel people should be happy in that regard, though thats for another thread. Its definitely a 'learning' experience thats for sure.

I do think that Bush is a good man, I dont buy into the 'evil' comments but it becomes confusing when you read these U.N. reports, books, articles, etc. on well everything. Hahah, in short...Im very split and confused right now. The ES community is older and wiser than I am, thats for sure, have you guys gone through a political flip flop of sorts? Enlightment? Change of views, etc.? Im 20, so I guess Im finally trying to figure out what I believe rather than what others tell me to believe (how I was raised, taught and so forth). I must admit it is kind of exciting though.

I think its a good thing though, that my mind and thought-process is being challenged here at college, it really allows you to learn more about yourself and who you truly are while strengthening convictions you may have. :feedback:

:rant:

Do not buy into any kind of "good" or "evil" comments... Those are judgements, and judgements are all subjective. The biggest danger for you right now is to slip into "it's not THIS way - it's THAT way" mentality. Do not try to get to the bottom of things right away - there will be a strong tendency for you to jump to conclusions if you do that.

Our worldview is put together with a bunch of pieces... when we start questioning our worldview we try to change it to accomodate new evidence. There is a strong tendency to use as many existing pieces as we can - it's very natural to do so. The idea is to figure out that we do not really know anything... anything we think we know could be just another old piece we automatically used.

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Well I dont want to start a Vietnam debate here, that can be saved for another thread I suppose BUT you are aware that the Vietnamese were fighting for their independence (in their view) right? They would have fought us to their last man. Those people over there are simply amazing.

I don't know If I'd call them amazing, brainwashed maybe. As far as political thinking goes. It amazes me how many republicans and democrats believe/support all thier party's issues right down the party line, while others vote all rep. or dem. because of only one issue such taxes, or abortion. Granted thier isn't another choice really and both parties work together to insure that. So what we're left with is a big compromise, and a mojority of people who don't ever want to compromise.

If we are ever going to change the political party system, we have to think independently. Assume that most of what you're being told is false.

Start from there and follow the money, it always leads to the truth.

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I can't remember where I got this quote, but it has definately stuck with me..."War is the least productive of all human activities."

I don't know who said it, because I Googled it and came up empty. But whoever did say it certainly hasn't studied history.

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I think its a good thing to learn from the opposing view, doesn't necessarily mean you agree but more tolerance is needed in our society.

Yeah it is good to learn from the opposing view, listen to it, and weigh it against what you believe to figure out the best decision or what not. But I think that there is too much tolerance in our society. People being "tolerant" is what is going to bring our society down. If people were so tolerant of criminals such as murders and wanting to be "humane" then we would not have as much trouble as we do. If every state executed someone for murder, the amount of murders would decrease i can guarentee you. It would not end altogether, but would decrease greatly. While someone might be tempted to kill someone else, a lot of people would be less likly when they know that their own life will end. All of the tolerance I see just makes things worse. I mean, the whole insanity plea thing for murders should not even apply. They still murdered someone. :2cents:

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Would've proved them wrong had we won the war. But defeatist mentality by the likes of Cronkite, Kerry, Fonda, etc. within our own borders prevented that from ever happening. Ever think about the possible implications had Saigon won the war? Every consider what that MAJOR defeat would've done to Moscow? Our demise in Vietnam only emboldened the Soviets to go into Afghanistan as well, which in turn, sent us to Afghanistan to ward the Soviet invasion off, by training future enemies of the state like Osama bin Laden. Of course, we now have the benefit of hindsight which you liberals use to make yourselves feel so smart. Instead, our efforts in Vietnam were lost in vain and it sent us into a nation-wide malaise post-war and through the Carter years. But hey, the doubters were proved right, right? WAY TO GO!!

:rolleyes:

Are you attempting to be witty by quizzing me dude or do you not know and need somebody to tell you? Or are you setting some lame trap for me so you can say, "AHA, I TOLD YOU SO!!" Whatever. Tell you what, since you don't know, I'll let you google it so YOU can "tell the class."

Regardless, victory was ours in Vietnam until people like you (who actually pride themselves on this) snatched defeat from the jaws of victory here in the U.S.

It's Defeatism 101, Destino. Shall I quiz you on that? Don't worry, you'll ace it.......with pride. Congratulations.

:finger:

I agree with you a lot man. It was people like Fonda and Kerry that made the POW suffer greatly. Made them stay in prison for years longer and be tortured. And then say that they DESERVED it. I spit on people like that. They make me sick.

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Yeah it is good to learn from the opposing view, listen to it, and weigh it against what you believe to figure out the best decision or what not. But I think that there is too much tolerance in our society. People being "tolerant" is what is going to bring our society down. If people were so tolerant of criminals such as murders and wanting to be "humane" then we would not have as much trouble as we do. If every state executed someone for murder, the amount of murders would decrease i can guarentee you. It would not end altogether, but would decrease greatly. While someone might be tempted to kill someone else, a lot of people would be less likly when they know that their own life will end. All of the tolerance I see just makes things worse. I mean, the whole insanity plea thing for murders should not even apply. They still murdered someone. :2cents:

I used to kind of have this mentality but keep in mind that there have been countless numbers of people put to death that were later found innocent. Maybe if we had a perfect judicial system then your idea may hold more, but sadly we are far from it. I've take a bunch of criminal justice classes and while sometimes you read about a violent case of rape and murder that makes you want to shoot the **** yourself you have to keep in mind the process of trial, evidence, etc. Furthermore if we just kill everyone that kills, where do we draw the line? We can't allow our own collective morals in life be drawn down to the level of the perpetrators, if that happens then they've won. In any case, we both probably agree that the system IS very flawed on multiple levels. It needs to be fixed somehow, someway, though Im not sure whats the right path to take.

And yes the insanity plea can be overused BUT its there for a reason, Ive read stories of GOOD people literally going 'insane' for a period of time, though I dont really know enough on the subject to thoroughly debate it.

One last thing, tolerance is a good thing. At least in my view it is, I find it interesting that you think we have TOO much tolerance in America but I guess that just depends on where you live, go to small-town, Mississippi and come back and tell me theres too much tolerance...I dont think so at all. But thats just my humble opinion, certainly not rooted in fact.

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If college is this deep I think I might skip it. Syke, but Henry you sound just like one of my friend. He is kinda lost right now too. I can not say exactly what he is going through, but I can tell you that the only advice I can give you is do not let the pressure get to you.

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I don't know If I'd call them amazing, brainwashed maybe. QUOTE]

Well while we had military and political objectives in the war, for them it was all about survival. And I say their an amazing people because of how long they have been fighting, those people were born into terror and conflict, they grew up fighting off the Chinese invaders, French invaders, etc. They dug tunnels and trenches with their bare hands, made booby traps out of the littlest of materials...things you see out of the movies (i.e. literally a swinging log with wooden spikes, wooden spikes stuck in lakes, paths, etc.). They would find bombs of ours and take out the detanator and then use the powder in the bomb to make their own explosive device and use that against us. Really, you should do some research on the Vietnamese people...they are amazing in many aspects.

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footballhenry... Congrats. You definately should think for yourself. Don't be what ever it is you are supposed to be, just take each issue as it comes and do what YOU think is right, not what which ever side thinks is right.

IMO, that's what's wrong with our country. So many people think that there are these interlocked ideas that all have to fit together and you have to pick a side. BS. You don't have to pick a side, all the issues are not interrelated, you can have a conservative viewpoint on one thing and a liberal viewpoint on something else.

Both political parties suck. Vote independant. As more people do this, change may be possible... :cheers

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I don't know If I'd call them amazing, brainwashed maybe. QUOTE]

Well while we had military and political objectives in the war, for them it was all about survival. And I say their an amazing people because of how long they have been fighting, those people were born into terror and conflict, they grew up fighting off the Chinese invaders, French invaders, etc. They dug tunnels and trenches with their bare hands, made booby traps out of the littlest of materials...things you see out of the movies (i.e. literally a swinging log with wooden spikes, wooden spikes stuck in lakes, paths, etc.). They would find bombs of ours and take out the detanator and then use the powder in the bomb to make their own explosive device and use that against us. Really, you should do some research on the Vietnamese people...they are amazing in many aspects.

FBH, I was taling about thier ideology, not technology :doh: :laugh: you're in a typing mood today :laugh:

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FBH, I was taling about thier ideology, not technology :doh: :laugh: you're in a typing mood today :laugh:

Technology? Im talking about the will of the people, their will to fight and survive. Their resourcefulness, etc. Haha, and yes I am in a typing mood today :D

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Would've proved them wrong had we won the war. But defeatist mentality by the likes of Cronkite, Kerry, Fonda, etc. within our own borders prevented that from ever happening. Ever think about the possible implications had Saigon won the war? Every consider what that MAJOR defeat would've done to Moscow? Our demise in Vietnam only emboldened the Soviets to go into Afghanistan as well, which in turn, sent us to Afghanistan to ward the Soviet invasion off, by training future enemies of the state like Osama bin Laden. Of course, we now have the benefit of hindsight which you liberals use to make yourselves feel so smart. Instead, our efforts in Vietnam were lost in vain and it sent us into a nation-wide malaise post-war and through the Carter years. But hey, the doubters were proved right, right? WAY TO GO!!
Actually I was talking about the fact that the war was justified to the American people by claiming we were attacked. That turned out to be false. People like you seem to look right past that, and just how wrong that is. I'm not surprised you did'nt even catch my meaning.

Do you even know what I'm talking about?

As for what it would have done to Moscow? Who the hell cares - in case you missed it history has proven that we didn't need a win in Vietnam to defeat communism. Think of all the Americans that would be alive today had we avoided that moronic conflict - they would be alive and communism would have still fallen.

Are you attempting to be witty by quizzing me dude or do you not know and need somebody to tell you? Or are you setting some lame trap for me so you can say, "AHA, I TOLD YOU SO!!" Whatever. Tell you what, since you don't know, I'll let you google it so YOU can "tell the class."

Regardless, victory was ours in Vietnam until people like you (who actually pride themselves on this) snatched defeat from the jaws of victory here in the U.S.

It's Defeatism 101, Destino. Shall I quiz you on that? Don't worry, you'll ace it.......with pride. Congratulations.

:finger:

You want to quiz me on defeatism? Go right ahead. But beofre you start find me a quote of me demanding we pull our troops out of anywhere. You assumed that I was a "defeatist" because you're a reactionary apologist more concerned with imaginary liberals you create in your own damaged mind then you are looking at the facts.

I'll restate my position on Iraq for you, I was against going in because I thought the evidence was lacking. After that point however I've stated that we can not walk away now. Once you go in, you are in all the way, it's the only option that properly respects our troops and the people of Iraq.

Sorry that I don't fit in with your boogyman fantasy political stance. Not all of us can be partisan caricatures.

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I agree with you a lot man. It was people like Fonda and Kerry that made the POW suffer greatly. Made them stay in prison for years longer and be tortured. And then say that they DESERVED it. I spit on people like that. They make me sick.
People that say POWs deserved it make me sick as well. I have a question though - where does one draw the line between that extreme and the other that refuses to acknowledge any of the brutality inflicted on civilians during that war? I'm not trying to make a point here, simply looking for your opinion.
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America got involved in Vietnam and Afganistan because of the Domino Theory... if Vietnam falls so would the rest of the world, remember?

Vietnam War gave rise to Hippies who really screwed things up for everybody.... dang Hippies gave people like hokie4redskins an excuse to discount any opinion that disagrees with theirs ;)

One extreme gives birth to another... without War there would be no Hippies... and sometimes it really looks like those times split our nation apart.... it seems we are still paying for that...

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America got involved in Vietnam and Afganistan because of the Domino Theory... if Vietnam falls so would the rest of the world, remember?

Vietnam War gave rise to Hippies who really screwed things up for everybody.... dang Hippies gave people like hokie4redskins an excuse to discount any opinion that disagrees with theirs ;)

One extreme gives birth to another... without War there would be no Hippies... and sometimes it really looks like those times split our nation apart.... it seems we are still paying for that...

Too bad the "hippies" turned into the "yuppies" then the neo-cons huh? As a good aside, my mothre was really good friends with an ultra-hippy when I was a child, he actually ran a business, but he was also highly involved in the democratic party. . . Come circa 2004, he was a staunch republican, one of Bush's "pioneers" who worked for Bremmer in Iraq. It was that generation who we're going to have to pay for our entire lives, and they are the ones that helped destroy the single income household. . .G'dam hippies, they are the reason we are so screwed now!!!

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I used to kind of have this mentality but keep in mind that there have been countless numbers of people put to death that were later found innocent. Maybe if we had a perfect judicial system then your idea may hold more, but sadly we are far from it. I've take a bunch of criminal justice classes and while sometimes you read about a violent case of rape and murder that makes you want to shoot the **** yourself you have to keep in mind the process of trial, evidence, etc. Furthermore if we just kill everyone that kills, where do we draw the line? We can't allow our own collective morals in life be drawn down to the level of the perpetrators, if that happens then they've won. In any case, we both probably agree that the system IS very flawed on multiple levels. It needs to be fixed somehow, someway, though Im not sure whats the right path to take.

And yes the insanity plea can be overused BUT its there for a reason, Ive read stories of GOOD people literally going 'insane' for a period of time, though I dont really know enough on the subject to thoroughly debate it.

One last thing, tolerance is a good thing. At least in my view it is, I find it interesting that you think we have TOO much tolerance in America but I guess that just depends on where you live, go to small-town, Mississippi and come back and tell me theres too much tolerance...I dont think so at all. But thats just my humble opinion, certainly not rooted in fact.

I agree with you for sure that the system is very very flawed. But I think that if we let people off that DID kill, DID do these horrible things, then we are not winning, they are. They are getting away with it by being allowed to live, something they stole from another person. The system will never be fixed because we are flawed so the system will be flawed, but we have to try to at least make it better, though I have no clue how. When I say too much tolerance, I mean that things are let slide that should not be let slide mainly because someone does not want to be labeled as "close-minded" or something of that sort. Not sure what you mean by go to a small-town in mississippi... I live in a small town. The fact that they went insane, if they did, does not change the fact that they did in fact do what they... well... did. They should still have to answer to it. If they went insane and killed someone, they still stole that life from someone. And I bet you people see that if you plead insanity with murder or something of the sort then you wont be killed. This makes it more likely for them to do it. Again, just my :2cents:

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People that say POWs deserved it make me sick as well. I have a question though - where does one draw the line between that extreme and the other that refuses to acknowledge any of the brutality inflicted on civilians during that war? I'm not trying to make a point here, simply looking for your opinion.

Yeah, those guys went through hell, and not only where they bashed etc when they got back, but people were saying they deserved it. I assume you are talking about vietnam civis since thats what this conversation has been around. I do not think it was as bad, or as much as some people believe. I can not say for myself since I obviously was not there, but for example the POW were accused of that and other guys, but they never did that, people who knew them knew they were the kind of guys that would not do something like that, but would rather stop it. But I think that guys that did things like that are the lowest kind of people and should have been punished for it. If they murdered civilians, which is what it would have been doing, they should have paid the ultamite penalty, giving up their life which is what they stole from those people. Not counting the other horrible things they were supposed to have done. :2cents:

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Too bad the "hippies" turned into the "yuppies" then the neo-cons huh? As a good aside, my mothre was really good friends with an ultra-hippy when I was a child, he actually ran a business, but he was also highly involved in the democratic party. . . Come circa 2004, he was a staunch republican, one of Bush's "pioneers" who worked for Bremmer in Iraq. It was that generation who we're going to have to pay for our entire lives, and they are the ones that helped destroy the single income household. . .G'dam hippies, they are the reason we are so screwed now!!!

It's the drugs, man! They took too much man, they took too much!!! :laugh:

Seriously though, if that does not show that moderation is key - I do not know what does.

I can so see it too, first we go to one extreme, then we become disillusioned and run to another. All while screaming that everything is somebody else's fault... and getting angry... really angry...

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