Which President was the biggest Bad@$$?

[rincewind]

First of all Chopper, there were a LOT of reasons to drop the bomb on Japan. Impressing the Soviets would be way down on the list.

Secondly, the Soviets were already working on The Bomb themselves. It's not like they saw ours and went "Holy crap, let's get us some of those!" The arms race had been underway for several years by then.

There are arguments you can make to support an opinion that dropping the bomb on Japan was a bad idea. Those two aren't among them.

EDIT: Also, we initially began working on the bomb to use in Germany. The Germans had been developing not only atomic weapons, but superior delivery systems (such at the v-1s and v-2s.) We wanted to make sure we had them too. It wasn't until Germany was out of the picture that we even considered using the bomb on Japan. We were at war. We had a better weapon. We used it.

I don't know, its my understanding that showing the Soviets what we had was the major reason for dropping the second bomb. I'm not saying it was the major reason for the first, just the second.

[Predicto]

I have a major problem with this. See, originally, the atomic bombings were considered a means to prevent an invasion of Japan. Upon further inspection since, it's become fairly clear that the real reason we dropped the bomb was to show the Soviets we had the bomb.

Dave, you know where I stand on most issue, I think. What you are asserting is not at all "fairly clear." It is a claim made by some people, but there is virtually no hard evidence to back it up.

I have read and researched a ton on this area, and am convinced that this argument is just wrong. The bomb was dropped to bring a swift end to a terrible war. The people who made the decision to drop it did not have the benefit of hindsight. It was only after the bomb was dropped that we all realized what a Pandora's Box had been opened. At the time we were in the midst of a total war against an impacable enemy, and it seemed like just another weapon in the arsenal, and a good way to save up to a million American soldier's lives.

[Predicto]

I don't know, its my understanding that showing the Soviets what we had was the major reason for dropping the second bomb. I'm not saying it was the major reason for the first, just the second.

This assumes, again, the benefit of hindsight. The second bomb was dropped because the Japanese did not respond to the dropping of the first one.

[rincewind]

This assumes, again, the benefit of hindsight. The second bomb was dropped because the Japanese did not respond to the dropping of the first one.

I haven't done as much research as you but - from what i have heard the Japanese had surrendered in all but written word, it was all over but the shouting. They were humbled and ready to agree to terms - if they really did need another push, don't you think the second Bomb was a little to hard?

[PleaseBlitz]

I have a major problem with this. See, originally, the atomic bombings were considered a means to prevent an invasion of Japan. Upon further inspection since, it's become fairly clear that the real reason we dropped the bomb was to show the Soviets we had the bomb. There are two things VERY wrong with this: first of all, we NUKED two cities. That's a bad thing in and of itself. Secondly, we basically created the nuclear arms race. If we had just sat back and not used the nukes, and just used conventional weapons (we took out Tokyo with firebombs, for Christ's sake, we didn't need to nuke them), we could have really slowed down the arms race.

Overall, I have a hard time seeing how unnecessary use of nuclear weapons equates to badassness. It's just foolishness, IMO.

Chopper, I think the A-bombs were used to SAVE not only the lives of several tens of thousands of American soldiers that would have died in an invasion (which is Trumans primary responsibility) but also to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives. History shows that the Japanese rarely surrendered, even on real estate that they had recently conquered. If we had invaded the Japanese home islands, we would have had to kill every Japanese man, woman, and probably child. Its a cultural thing over there. The concept of Bushido, death before dishonor, something like that. The A-bombs killed about 120,000 in an instant, and yes, that isnt something im all-together comfortable with, but a full-scale invasion would have resulted in the deaths of millions, Americans and Japanese. The A-bombs abruptly ended the war, which was the ultimate aim.

Showing the Russians that we werent ****ing around was a minor, if advantagous, biproduct.

[Henry]

I don't know, its my understanding that showing the Soviets what we had was the major reason for dropping the second bomb. I'm not saying it was the major reason for the first, just the second.

Stalin knew EXACTLY what we had, and when we had it. He knew we had a bomb before Truman did.

The main reason the Soviets took 4 years to catch up to us was due to the fact that they lacked material, specifically uranium, to properly develop a device. They got that from Eastern Europe after the war ended. Our dropping the bomb in no way, shape or form had anything to do with the Soviet entrance into the arms race.

We dropped the second bomb in order to show the Japanese we had more than one. We were trying to force a complete surrender, and we got it.

[BayouBrave86]

Harrison Ford

[Henry]

I haven't done as much research as you but - from what i have heard the Japanese had surrendered in all but written word, it was all over but the shouting. They were humbled and ready to agree to terms - if they really did need another push, don't you think the second Bomb was a little to hard?

They were ready to agree to terms. We did not want terms. We wanted a total and complete surrender. That took two drops.

[rincewind]

They were ready to agree to terms. We did not want terms. We wanted a total and complete surrender. That took two drops.

edit: hey, you changed your answer while i was responding. Tricky.

[Henry]

edit: hey, you changed your answer while i was responding. Tricky.

Well, I though my initial response was a little rude.

The fact is, some of the civilian leadership in Japan had suggested asking for terms of surrender, but this was never accepted by the military, and those 'terms' were never outlined. For all we know the Japanese would have fought on for months. Their cause had been lost for quite some time, yet that hadn't stopped them from fighting to the last at Okinawa, which resulted in 120,000 Japanese and 18,000 American deaths.

Faced with the prospect of similar, or even fiercer, resistance on the main island, the declaration of war against Japan by the Soviets (East and West Germany? How would you feel about an East and West Japan too?) we decided to use whatever means at our disposal to convince the Japanese to surrender as soon as possible. Personally, I think that was the right call, even if it wasn't totally badass.

[Predicto]

They were ready to agree to terms. We did not want terms. We wanted a total and complete surrender. That took two drops.

Sort of. First of all, the Japanese really were not in agreement on anything. They had a dysfunctional governing system that required concensus to act, and there was no concensus because of honor issues. Moreover, several coups were in the works, including one that almost succeeded.

Most importantly - we did not KNOW what they were really thinking, or planning. All we knew for sure was that they hadn't surrendered yet and our soldiers and sailors kept dying, and that it was expected to cost up to a million American lives (and tens of millions of Japanes lives) to invade the Japanese homeland islands.

[hokie4redskins]

The last thing Truman was thinking about was the Russians. The "scare the Soviets" argument has been pretty much debunked as speculative at best.

[Prosperity]

James K. Polk

People don't realize what a badass he was. He would seriously wake up in the morning beside two harlots, dissolve an 8ball into a glass of whiskey and down it, strap himself to the teeth with guns and knives, and then go kill homeless people in Lafayette Park (yeah, they had them even then) just to work up his appetite for breakfast!

Fo' Sho

This guy declared war on Mexico just to steal their land

[Prosperity]

They were ready to agree to terms. We did not want terms. We wanted a total and complete surrender. That took two drops.

Two drops and hundreds of thousands of civillian lives

[zoony]

Well, I though my initial response was a little rude.

The fact is, some of the civilian leadership in Japan had suggested asking for terms of surrender, but this was never accepted by the military, and those 'terms' were never outlined. For all we know the Japanese would have fought on for months. Their cause had been lost for quite some time, yet that hadn't stopped them from fighting to the last at Okinawa, which resulted in 120,000 Japanese and 18,000 American deaths.

Faced with the prospect of similar, or even fiercer, resistance on the main island, the declaration of war against Japan by the Soviets (East and West Germany? How would you feel about an East and West Japan too?) we decided to use whatever means at our disposal to convince the Japanese to surrender as soon as possible. Personally, I think that was the right call, even if it wasn't totally badass.

One item very rarely mentioned in the decision to drop the bomb.... yet anyone familiar with Japanese culture would be VERY familiar with...

Dropping the bomb on Japan was the only way the Emporer and his admirals could save face. They could not have surrendered under ANY other terms, short of a complete conquering of their country. The bomb allowed them to do what they wanted to do.... surrender.

Hell, the firebombing of Tokyo killed way more Japanese than either bomb. It was a weapon that the Japanese leadership could point to and feel good about surrendering.

Anyone who says dropping the bomb was not the right move or was somehow motivated by something else is simply showing their own ignorance on the subject. Sorry, there is really no kind way to put it. :2cents:

[Chopper Dave]

Chopper, I think the A-bombs were used to SAVE not only the lives of several tens of thousands of American soldiers that would have died in an invasion (which is Trumans primary responsibility) but also to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives. History shows that the Japanese rarely surrendered, even on real estate that they had recently conquered. If we had invaded the Japanese home islands, we would have had to kill every Japanese man, woman, and probably child. Its a cultural thing over there. The concept of Bushido, death before dishonor, something like that. The A-bombs killed about 120,000 in an instant, and yes, that isnt something im all-together comfortable with, but a full-scale invasion would have resulted in the deaths of millions, Americans and Japanese. The A-bombs abruptly ended the war, which was the ultimate aim.

Showing the Russians that we werent ****ing around was a minor, if advantagous, biproduct.

I should have been more clear. We didn't need a full scale invasion. We OBLITERATED Tokyo with firebombs. Most of their buildings were made of wood and/or ricepaper. We could have easily bombed them into surrendering without dropping the bomb. It would've killed less people, and it would've kept the nuclear monkey in the cage.

[PleaseBlitz]

I should have been more clear. We didn't need a full scale invasion. We OBLITERATED Tokyo with firebombs. Most of their buildings were made of wood and/or ricepaper. We could have easily bombed them into surrendering without dropping the bomb. It would've killed less people, and it would've kept the nuclear monkey in the cage.

Im going to have to disagree again. We DID bomb Japan into surrendering. And it only took 2 bombs.

In order for Japan to surrender from conventional bombing, we would have had to destroy way more than 2 cities. The A-bomb shocked them into surrender quicker than they normally would have. Plus, in order for us to destroy most of that country with conventional bombing, it would have taken months. Soldiers on both sides were still dying in fighting throughout the Pacific in mopping up operations. The rate I have heard is 100,000 per month, which is substantial.

[Chopper Dave]

Im going to have to disagree again. We DID bomb Japan into surrendering. And it only took 2 bombs.

In order for Japan to surrender from conventional bombing, we would have had to destroy way more than 2 cities. The A-bomb shocked them into surrender quicker than they normally would have. Plus, in order for us to destroy most of that country with conventional bombing, it would have taken months. Soldiers on both sides were still dying in fighting throughout the Pacific in mopping up operations. The rate I have heard is 100,000 per month, which is substantial.

It doesn't seem likely to me that it would have been as difficult as you make it out to be. I mean, we pretty much had them backed into a corner. They were all but defeated, and I think the push from the non-military entities would have been great enough to make them surrender. Additionally, I don't like the idea of opening up the world to nuclear arms. Without Hiroshima and Nagasaki, things could be different. Proliferation wouldn't have been as great.

[PleaseBlitz]

It doesn't seem likely to me that it would have been as difficult as you make it out to be. I mean, we pretty much had them backed into a corner. They were all but defeated, and I think the push from the non-military entities would have been great enough to make them surrender. Additionally, I don't like the idea of opening up the world to nuclear arms. Without Hiroshima and Nagasaki, things could be different. Proliferation wouldn't have been as great.

You may be right about the proliferation. Though, even if it were cut by 1/4, both the US and Russia still could have destroyed the whole world.

Its tough to understand the mentality of the Japanese during that time period. They really would die before being dishonored. Almost no japanese soldiers surrendered during the war. Some actually killed THEMSELVES rather than being captured. So, backed into a corner didnt really affect thier thinking. Japan was run by thier military during this time, all men that believed in these concepts of Bushido.

And hey, hindsight being 20/20, what was wrong with the proliferation? Nothing really happened.

[Chopper Dave]

And hey, hindsight being 20/20, what was wrong with the proliferation? Nothing really happened.

Yet.......