Westbrook36 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Yeah, but I was under the impression that the 30% rule only applies to salary, not bonuses... A roster bonus counts as salary. Signing bonus's do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Roster bonus's are salary and fall within the 30 percent rule. Also, I think there would be a lockout before there was an uncapped year. You can hope all you want to absorb one tough year then win 11 SBs in a row because noone would be able to spend with Snyder but it just won't happen. The rest of the owners would lock the players out before they went down that road. So don't make them a roster bonus. Turn them into escalators. IE if player A plays in 20% of the offensive snaps in 07, he gets X bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 A roster bonus counts as salary. Signing bonus's do not. Okay, so make them signing bonuses. Why do they have to be roster bonuses?? Since they are signing a new contract, they can get signing bonuses, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz13 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Westbrook, Everything you talk about you imply that the agent and player are going to get those huge salaries at the end of the contract. This is not the NBA. Those salaries are phantom salaries. They will NEVER be seen. The Teams know this, the players know this, the agents know this, I know this, but for some reason you will not take this into consideration. If you do what I proposed, forget even the roster bonus in 08', just give the player the option to become a FA. The money in 08' and 09' will accelerate on the cap in 08 if the player opts out, but it will probably be a much higher cap then. This is a viable option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEJ2200 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I'm ignoring the salary cap, so for me, it doesn't exist....which means the Redskins are fine.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westbrook36 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Okay, so make them signing bonuses. Why do they have to be roster bonuses?? Since they are signing a new contract, they can get signing bonuses, no? You are going to take a player already under contract and do what? Cut them and resign them? You can't just take a current contract, and convert salary portions to a signing bonus. Plus, if you were to cut then resign a player and give them a new signing bonus, the previous signing bonus would become a cap hit for 06 so you would be actually screwing yourself more, depending on who the player was. Earned incentives count against the cap and are subject to the 30 percent rule as well, jrock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donita35 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Keep it up guys, this is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westbrook36 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Westbrook,Everything you talk about you imply that the agent and player are going to get those huge salaries at the end of the contract. This is not the NBA. Those salaries are phantom salaries. They will NEVER be seen. The Teams know this, the players know this, the agents know this, I know this, but for some reason you will not take this into consideration. If you do what I proposed, forget even the roster bonus in 08', just give the player the option to become a FA. The money in 08' and 09' will accelerate on the cap in 08 if the player opts out, but it will probably be a much higher cap then. This is a viable option. Ok, I'll play ball with this scenario. I COULD see agents and players alike agreeing to the promise of FA in 07 and still receiving their 06 salary in it's entirity. But, the Skins would be doing some gambling in that scenario. One, that 07 will be an uncapped year. Two, is that an agent would agree to a deal where a release isn't in the contract for 07 but the Skins would grant them FA. Remember, they can't just cut 07 and 08 out of the equation because they are counting on these years to spreadload a previous signing bonus. So you'd be asking an agent to receive their normal 06 pay and a verbal agreement of FA in 07 while their client's contract says they are playing for the minimum in 07, 08, etc. You aren't a Skins fan right now....you are an agent. Would you accept such a deal for your client? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Cap this Cap that how bout I just bust a cap in his @*$ for saying the sam ish people been saying since that year we got "Fleion". This is getting real old, Gibbs got the smart, Cerrato is so good with the words he can make Star Jones applealing, and Dan has the Pockets, enough said. If we do have a cap problems I am 100% positives that coach Joe can get us out off it. And how in the hell can the Jaguar website say what is wrong with the Skins. :doh: :doh: :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz13 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Ok, I'll play ball with this scenario. I COULD see agents and players alike agreeing to the promise of FA in 07 and still receiving their 06 salary in it's entirity.But, the Skins would be doing some gambling in that scenario. One, that 07 will be an uncapped year. Two, is that an agent would agree to a deal where a release isn't in the contract for 07 but the Skins would grant them FA. Remember, they can't just cut 07 and 08 out of the equation because they are counting on these years to spreadload a previous signing bonus. So you'd be asking an agent to receive their normal 06 pay and a verbal agreement of FA in 07 while their client's contract says they are playing for the minimum in 07, 08, etc. You aren't a Skins fan right now....you are an agent. Would you accept such a deal for your client? I said the bonus would be for two years money upfront, covering 06' and 07', with the player being able to opt out after the 07' season. So it would be a two year commitment. As an agent I would definitely take this, because I know that under the current contract, my player will never see those last two years salary. So I am being guaranteed 2 years upfront and then my player can become a free agent. The only issue from the teams standpoint, is that if this happened w/ several players and they opted out after 07', there is potential for alot of dead money in 07. But I think under this premise most of those players if still productive would get contract extensions in 08. This would relieve the dead money scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sableholic Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Cap this Cap that how bout I just bust a cap in his @*$ for saying the sam ish people been saying since that year we got "Fleion". This is getting real old, Gibbs got the smart, Cerrato is so good with the words he can make Star Jones applealing, and Dan has the Pockets, enough said. If we do have a cap problems I am 100% positives that coach Joe can get us out off it. And how in the hell can the Jaguar website say what is wrong with the Skins. :doh: :doh: :doh: Exactly the kind of posts this message boards needs. Thank you for adding a lot to the conversation. :hammer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westbrook36 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I said the bonus would be for two years money upfront, covering 06' and 07', with the player being able to opt out after the 07' season. So it would be a two year commitment. As an agent I would definitely take this, because I know that under the current contract, my player will never see those last two years salary. So I am being guaranteed 2 years upfront and then my player can become a free agent. The only issue from the teams standpoint, is that if this happened w/ several players and they opted out after 07', there is potential for alot of dead money in 07. But I think under this premise most of those players if still productive would get contract extensions in 08. This would relieve the dead money scenario. Lot of problems with this scenario but it MIGHT be possible. Number 1, you are paying a player for 2 years upfront.....what incentive do they have to bust their butts for their next check when there is no next check? Most teams stay away from doing business this way but it is a possibility. Next, I don't see how much you are going to help the 06 cap when you are paying a bonus for the 06 and 07 salaries in 06. I must be missing a crucial piece of this arguement. I thought it was your contention you would reduce a players cap number in 06 by doing this? You might be able to comply with the 30 percent rule but for every solution you propose, you are simply left trading one set of problems for another set of problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz13 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Lot of problems with this scenario but it MIGHT be possible. Number 1, you are paying a player for 2 years upfront.....what incentive do they have to bust their butts for their next check when there is no next check? Most teams stay away from doing business this way but it is a possibility.Next, I don't see how much you are going to help the 06 cap when you are paying a bonus for the 06 and 07 salaries in 06. I must be missing a crucial piece of this arguement. I thought it was your contention you would reduce a players cap number in 06 by doing this? You might be able to comply with the 30 percent rule but for every solution you propose, you are simply left trading one set of problems for another set of problems. In my earlier post w/ the example I gave it saved quite a bit of money in 06 and 07. And the player would reduce their salary to the minimum w/ a 30% increase each year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz13 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 The example I gave earlier would reduce cap numbers from 4m to 2.37m in 06, and from 5m to 2.58m in 07. This would be a savings of 41 and 48% respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westbrook36 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 It could be possible. You just need to much involvement with agents on a variety of players to make it feasible over several players. But, that being said, we are just a few guys on a messageboard.....I'm sure Dan S. has ideas that none of us have thought of. I'll be interested to see what he does if the CBA isn't extended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz13 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I'm sure he does. I just think it's fun talking about it, and trying to figure out ways to accomplish it. We can't have any fun talking about the Eagles' cap situation, because they are always 20m under. And if I were a birds fan I would be a little perturbed knowing my team was so close 4 years in a row, and had all that cap money. They do a great job managing the cap, but sometimes you have to take a chance and go for it. I'm sure you would trade a year of cap hell for a Super Bowl trophy. I know I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocono Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I'm sure he does. I just think it's fun talking about it, and trying to figure out ways to accomplish it. We can't have any fun talking about the Eagles' cap situation, because they are always 20m under. And if I were a birds fan I would be a little perturbed knowing my team was so close 4 years in a row, and had all that cap money. They do a great job managing the cap, but sometimes you have to take a chance and go for it. I'm sure you would trade a year of cap hell for a Super Bowl trophy. I know I would. That's an interesting theory Chaz but does it also apply to the Skins who put over 1M of their 05 cap space into a fake incentive in Rock Cartwright's contract to pass it from 05 to 06 or at least offset the earned ULTBE incentive in Brunell's contract? I mean how can you sleep knowing that one extra player might have made all the difference in Sea? Did you know also they didn't spend all their cap space in 04 but instead passed some forward via the Eagle's method[i call it Bannerizing] into the 05 season? Doesn't Danny want to win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sableholic Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Edit: NM saw his post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz13 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 We were 6-10 last year, so no. If we were in the NFC championship the last 1,2 or three years then maybe. But we aren't in the best cap shape, so I can see why we are trying to get credits for 06. In retrospect getting Coles off the cap in one year was a great move or the situation would be worse. And I wasn't busting on the Eagles or you, I just wanted your input on how your team spends and manages your cap and how you felt about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westbrook36 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Here is an example of how the restructuring can work.Player A is set to earn: 2006:4m 2007:5m 2008:6m 2009:7m in base salaries. The cap hit is set to be 4m in 06' Player A restructures his base salaries to be: 06' 700k 07' 910k 08' 1.183m 09'1.538m. This complies w/ the 30% rule for base salaries. Player A is paid a bonus in 06' of 3m(100% of 06' lost salary) + 3.68m(90% of 07' salary lost. The reduction is due to getting money 2 years in advance) A total of 6.68m. That is prorated over 4 years. 6.68/4=1.67. the cap hit for 06' would drop from 4m to 2.37m. The cap hit in 07' would drop from 5m to 2.58m. Player A would then get a roster bonus added to his contract in 08' to cover lost money in 08' and 09'. At that point the team could cut player A and take the two years left on the prorated bonus from 06' as an immediate cap hit, or pay the player the bonus, or extend the deal. This would be based on the expectation that there will be a new CBA by 08'. The only problem with this scenario is that the team would have to outlay alot of bonus money in 06'. This would not be a problem for the skins' as they have shown in the past. Tell me why this cannot work. Chaz, I missed this earlier. What can of bonus are we talking here? If it's a signing bonus (thus being prorated for 4 years) I do not believe a team can convert future salaries into a signing bonus in the middle of the contract. I could be wrong. If they converted it to a roster bonus of some sort, there would be a 6.68 million dollar hit in 06 which wouldn't help anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz13 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 If that is the case westbrook then that situation would not work. I'm not positive if you can convert future salaries to a signing bonus. I know you can convert next years, because we do that all the time. If we couldn't do two years then I would not want to let the player opt out after only a year. The cap hit in 08 would be the two years left on the prorated bonus or 3.35m That's why it would be a risk to the team because there could be a potential for alot of dead money in 08'. But as I said earlier, if the player is still productive I would foresee a contract extension at that point with another signing bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hailtotheredskins89826 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 just cuz we got better players and more money dont mean he gotta cry...hes in another conference wat does he care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz13 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Actually Westbrook if you are allowed to do this for one year I don't see why you couldn't do it for two. We do it all the time and it is referred to as a simple restructure. I love when the players and agents like to take credit for helping the team, when they are getting their pay for the year upfont. Based on the time value of money if a player gets it all now instead of being paid in increments they should get less money. It is in their best interest to get 100% upfront. It's the same premise when someone wins the lottery and takes the money in a lump sum as opposed to spreading it over 26 years. They get less money because 1m today will be worth much more in spending power than it will be in 20 years. Based on that in a simple restructure( mind you it's only over a year) there really should be a 2-4% discount based on inflation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDFan5 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Westbrook I want to preface this with I am not attacking you personally I think your oppinions are valuable but there are just a few things i want to get off my chest . Westbrook . You keep putting the same arguments over and over again and fail to listen to anyone else . The 30% rule applies to salaries and only salaries. The Cap numbers are not salaries they are made up of so many different component parts signing bonus, workout bonus, roster bonus etc etc . It is only the bonus segement that players are sure to get which is why players agree to reduce thier base salaries to miniumums to recieve a bonus insted. Also Westbrook it must be pointed out all teams try ways and meens to get around the cap some more underhand than others . The Eagles for example load up fringe players up with incentive bonuses which count against the cap in the year they are given but never paid to the players because they do not reach the incentives in their contracts . Because they never reach the incentives they then get a cap credit in the following year ... a good way to bend the rules and carry cap credit from one year to another no ? The other thing that gets me about Westbrooks facination with the potential errors of our front office didn't the Eagles season just go down the toilet because of the miss handling of thier front office of key players or a key player in particular ? When discussing the 30% rule ALL money excluding the signing bonus is counted as salary, So Roster bonus workout bonus, ect are all counted as part of the salary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDFan5 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 So don't make them a roster bonus. Turn them into escalators. IE if player A plays in 20% of the offensive snaps in 07, he gets X bonus. Any incentive deemed likley to be earned for the 2007 season would go immediately into your cap in 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.