OL play against Bucs -- hmmm...

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

I hesitate to comment in detail about OL play without the benefit of review from tape or Tivo. I watched last night's game on a sports bar TV without audio. My impression was that line play was mediocre but adequate in the first half, and often terrible in the second half.

Tivo did record the ESPN NFL2NITE highlights, so I got a second chance to see some of the best Redskins plays. Keep in mind that these were the *best* Redskin plays, and still:

1. Gardner TD pass to put Redskins up 7-0:

Matthews is sandwiched after the pass by the rushing Buc right DE and right DT. The DE beats Rod Jones (LT) on an outside/in move -- as Jones tries to ride the DE to the back of the pocket, the DE tosses Jones to the ground and charges Matthews. Meanwhile, Vickers (LG) is spun like a turnstyle by the charging DT. Larry Moore ©, who has no one to block, watches the charging DT and does nothing as the DT blows by Vickers.

2. Davis run up middle for 8 yards, 4:02 1st Q, Redskins up 7-0:

Vickers is again beaten like a turnstyle, this time on a running play. Moore again has no one to block and watches Vickers get beaten. Moore crosses line of scrimmage ahead of Davis (who dodges the man who beat Vickers), spots linebacker #52 (Webster) and attempts to block him; Moore misses block and ends up tackling Webster's legs from behind. Davis, on sheer personal effort, gains almost 8 yards (credited for 5).

3. Davis up middle for 9 yards; 7:57 1st Q, score 0-0

On this earlier run (the play before the Gardner TD), Davis gains 9 yards also on personal effort. The play seems designed to go to the right (off center or guard), but the line is stacked up; Davis cuts back and bounces off players for a nine-yard gain.

All three plays are examples of how stats can lie. Reading the stat sheet without the benefit of watching the replays, people would probably say the three plays indicate good line play. But the line failed on all three plays -- and these were *highlight* plays favoring the Redskins.

Plays #1 and #2 show Vickers to be a *dreadful* guard. Samuels and Jansen probably don't have two plays that ugly in four games, and these were just random plays that made the Redskin "highlight" reel.

Rod Jones continues to look poor on the occasions I've seen him isolated. Others report he can perform better, but I haven't had the opportunity to see that.

I'm wondering if Larry Moore is getting a free pass by the forum. He looked pretty useless on these "highlight" plays, though he wasn't beaten as obviously as Vickers and Jones. He just didn't help when he should have, and he missed a downfield block. Against Pittsburgh, I thought I saw him being blown back on some blocks -- but I haven't seen the replays. Has anyone studied Moore's play in detail? I haven't seen enough of him to draw any conclusions, but I do have questions about him.

On the positive side, Stephen Davis is an amazing player. On these two runs, he simply created great plays from nothing. He deserve a better interior OL, or I fear we will lose him. Let's hope Stai is a step in that direction.

[KCgator]

YOu wiill never stop will you. We played without our best OL and held our own very well vs. the bucs starters. SD had the best day of the pre-season and our qb's are gonna get hit. If you watched UF football that is part of SOS system. When you have 5 wideouts and no backs or TE to block it is gonna happen.

The qb holds the ball until the last second in the pocket giving room for the WR to get open.

Danny took a pounding as a qb at UF. Did you see last years UT game where Grossman took a beating. You have to be very tough in his system b/c the qb will get hit.

The second team line looked pretty bad, but what can you expect. Some of those guys will be cut this week or next and ramsey needs to learn how to read when a blitz is coming and throw to the open guy quicker.

I ask you this who was better the Skins OL or the Bucs DL.

The answer is obvious

[BlitzFiftySix]

ASF's glass is and always will be half-empty. I'm starting to wonder if he is in here just to get under our skin. He must be a Braves fan as well. This is the only excuse he could have for such bitterness. Being the Buffalo Bills of baseball could make me that way as well.

[laurent]

Get a life, seriously.

[BogeyMan]

Can we get a "Turd in the Punchbowl" icon for ASF?:laugh:

Seriously ASF, you know your football and bring up some valid concerns. Keep up the good work.

[Art]

I noticed Jones get beat as well on that 23-yard TD to Gardner. I thought to myself, "Boy, I'm glad we didn't have 35-yards to go, else they might have stopped that play." I find it difficult to nit pick on a perfect play and touchdown when the QB dropped back, pumped, and let loose a perfect pass on time for a touchdown.

Jones was beaten. Well, he was beaten if we had another 10 yards or second to wait on the pass. Since we scored he wasn't beaten at all. I didn't pay much attention to the rushing highlights to be honest. I just figure when you score a TD on a nice play, it's pretty hard to BLAME the offensive line for it.

[Murilo Bustamante]

ASF-

I like your posts. I don't like relentless negativity, but I see your posts as being balanced and pointing out flaws that you see legitimately.

I like to think I am the same way. One school of fan starts every season saying "16-0 baby, here we come!" Another, like you, is more rational. It takes both types.

[NavyDave]

I guess ASF turned down that inviation from the O line coach on he food network for his meal of crow and humble pie

[Sarge]

C'mon, guys, give ASF a break. I like to hear everybody's view of things (except Kefka and that annoying little sh!t in the game thread last night). I can see some of where he is coming from, in a way. After all the years of Norv, you'd see a good game and think,"Maybe THIS is the turnaround point.". Of course, we were always let down the next week. Now, you see good plays and the team on a roll and you pray that this is a new era. Maybe some folks just take a little convincing. Once we get on a roll, whether it be this year or next, he'll come over to the light side of the Force.

[NavyDave]

Air Sarge maybe right.

ASF may still be suffering from Norvitis and hasnt finished his therapy.

Then again he could have sipped the Marty KoolAid and FRANKLY it takes time for a cultist to adjust

Hang in there ASF we hope you have a speedy recovery and join the club of optimism soon.

[One Dollar]

ASF,

you need to post on some unbiased NFL sites or heck even other team sites. Your insight and honest views would be appreciated more. Your accepted here as well as I am. :) PM me if you want some good sites that are not team specific.

[PCS]

:lol: Dollar, (may want to change that one....I'd reccomend 3)

Interesting how "objective ASF is because...well, fairly obvious isn't it? Not fooling anyone here. Plenty of football knowledge here and objective. You should know, you've been here long enough. " Your insight and honest views".... this wouldn't be because you share in these opinions would it?.......nah... not you...You're objective.

[Art]

To be terribly honest, anyone paying attention to this thread as having any special insight simply lacks any themselves. Again, one can not be beaten along the offensive line on touchdown passes. A touchdown pass means you weren't beaten. Beaten means the defender actually gets to the QB and prevents a touchdown pass.

It's a simple equation really. For an offensive lineman to be beaten, the play needs to be stopped. An offensive lineman has a specific duty on each pass play. They are to block for as long as it takes to let the QB get the ball off, on time, to a receiver. In this case the QB didn't have to move. He wasn't flushed. He took a deep drop. He had time to pump. He had time to throw a touchdown pass.

Had it been another half second or five yards we had to go, the play would have been no good very likely. It is apparent some people see these kinds of posts for the abject idiocy they are. It is equally apparent others of you actually think they are meaningful. I'm actually more worried about the people who would accept this message than the person spouting it. At least the spouter has an agenda he needs desperately to validate. And he'll do anything, even say the line was beaten on a play where we had seconds to throw and the QB never had to move when throwing.

Some of you just flat out worry me. Norvitis must be it. There is no negative on a touchdown pass. The only people beaten on that kind of play are the defense. Ask Monte Kiffin if he's high fiving Sapp and Jones for, "Getting good late pressure on the QB as the pass was sailing over their heads." Doubtful don't you think?

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by Art

To be terribly honest, anyone paying attention to this thread as having any special insight simply lacks any themselves. Again, one can not be beaten along the offensive line on touchdown passes. A touchdown pass means you weren't beaten. Beaten means the defender actually gets to the QB and prevents a touchdown pass.

It's a simple equation really. For an offensive lineman to be beaten, the play needs to be stopped.

Art, I realize it may be difficult for you to see the universe in anything other than black-and-white oppositions. So let me give you an example that may make this easier for you to understand.

LaVar Arrington ended Troy Aikman's career. This play was:

1. A sack.

2. Not a sack.

Hmmmm . . . . Answer was #2. So there should be much rejoicing in Dallas, because the OL did their job.

If you are still trying to understand what I'm saying, then let me spell it out further:

1. On passing plays, the success of an OL is defined by more than sacks.

2. QB hits are just as bad (to the QB) whether or not the QB has already released the ball. Especially with QBs like Aikman and Matthews who have shown themselves to be very fragile.

3. QB hurries are bad as a tendency by an OL, because they lead to broken plays. If you are strictly evaluating the OL, you are less concerned about the final outcome of a play than you are about whether the QB had his timing disrupted, was forced out of the pocket, or was forced to pass the ball before he wanted to.

4. Similarly, for running plays, if you are evaluating the OL, there is an important distinction between a nine-yard run produced because of a huge gaping hole opened by the OL, and a nine-yard run produced with 8 yards of brilliant effort by Stephen Davis after the OL blew its blocks.

Hope this was simple enough for you.

[Dirk Diggler]

This is gonna be another one of those long ones, isnt it? :doh:

[Art]

Sorry Atlanta, but, that's a poor example.

Matthews was standing stock still.

Aikman was flushed and rolling out from pressure.

In our play, the play was designed for the QB to drop back five steps. Pump fake the ball. And pass it on time to a streaking receiver. That's precisely what happened. The defense doesn't need to sack the QB to have a win on the play. The defense must alter the play to have a win on the play. If the defense does that, it has won. Even in cases where the "broken" play turns out positively for the offense, it can still be a win for the defense becasue the offense was thrown off time and off plan.

Again, in our case, our QB was supposed to drop back five steps. Pump. Throw. If he can do those things, we smile. If he can do those things and throw a TD we rejoice. If he can step up and deliver the ball, we say hurray. He did. He may have been hit, AFTER delivering the ball, but, unless the defense actually alters the throw, his throwing motion, his ability to stand in the pocket, or any number of things, it's not a win.

When Lavar flushed Rob Johnson out of the pocket forcing him to throw some sissy girl shovel pass out of fear, that was a good play for the defense. Even if the pass had somehow gotten to Alstott, we STILL would have done our job and altered their play. They still may make a play. They get paid too. Here, the Bucs altered nothing. The play worked precisely as it was designed. The line gave as much time as was necessary to make the called play work.

That's a victory.

That play is a win.

I didn't follow through to the end to see how big a hit may have been laid on Matthews. I don't know if it was a shot, a nudge or nothing at all. But, what we know is he wasn't hurried and he wasn't hit before throwing. He wasn't forced to move in either direction. He ran the play that was called for a touchdown. He dropped back. He pumped. He stepped up and threw a pass on time and on target to the receiver for a touchdown. That's a win.

I hope that was simple enough for you.

[SonnyJ]

I don't get it.

Even if the play is run exactly as designed, executed properly, and a TD results, if the QB gets touched, it's a bad play by the line? Is this some sort of sliding scale? Are we expecting the Redskins OL of '91? Didn't Jones get hurt on that play?

Wow, Spurrier has ALREADY set the bar high, hasn't he?

[Yomar]

So not everyone made a good block on every play...it happens...

We don't have a top notch interior O-Line...we know this...

But the Bucs have arguably the most talent D-Line in football (I'd take the Giants personally but whatever) and while I did not see the game, it did sound to me like Davis was getting some decent yardage.

Rod Smith is our back-up, instead of being worried that he got beat like a turnstile, I'd be encouraged by Matthews ability to stand his ground and deliver a pass...

Larry Moore does not have the benefit of TiVo or even a bird's eye view, if Vickers man got beat and Moore didn't see him it certainly wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened in the NFL.

I don't know really, I wish I could watch these games, but from everything I've heard, it sounds like the interior O-Line has done at bare minimum an adequate job this pre-season (the starters that is) and frankly passable is going to have to be good enough for us this year.

[Art]

It's a good point. I don't know if that was the play or not, but I believe you are correct. We can check the game thread for the precise timing though. Also, the observation on that play seems slightly off. Vickers didn't "spin" at all. Sapp got on his left shoulder and had an arm under. Vickers was beside him and rode him back to the QB. But, Vickers didn't get lost on the play or get turned around. I won't speak with finality here, because I haven't "studied" the play as ASF may have. But, my impression of it is that Vickers, while clearly beaten by Sapp, was blocking Sapp and Sapp didn't impact the play at all. Matthews even had room to step up to deliver the pass.

[monarch34]

What I don't understand about ASF's posts is why he villifies Helton (over and over again, ad nauseum) for the OLinemen that we have and the fact that we are "understaffed/undertalented" at that position, but then ASF praises Mendes/Cerrato for being brilliant at what they do. I think everyone recognizes (except perhaps ASF) that the front office has re-taken the majority of control on player personnel decisions. That doesn't mean that they don't ever ask coaches for input, but its been pretty well documented that they have the final say (even when that leaves SOS upset about being out of the loop at times, such as taking a QB in the draft when he didn't want one instead of drafting a guard, and not knowing that players are being brought in for workouts). While I think that Mendes and Cerrato (and their staffs) bear the majority of the responsibility rather than Helton, even if ASF disagreed, I cannot begin to understand how he can shift nearly 100% of the blame to Helton (or seemingly so). Its as though Mendes and Cerrato get full credit for their moves at all other positions except at OL where Helton is the secret GM.

[RiggoDrill]

Would Zone-blocking explain why Moore was standing in open space?

[redman]

Originally posted by KCgator

Danny took a pounding as a qb at UF. Did you see last years UT game where Grossman took a beating. You have to be very tough in his system b/c the qb will get hit.

You have to be tough to QB in the NFL, but no QB, even a guy as big as Dante Culpepper or as athletic and elusive as Steve Young, can expect to remain healthy while "taking a beating/pounding". That's the problem, and it's why the networks at least include the stats on QB hits in figuring how much pressure he's under. Frankly I'd rather have a team give up 2-3 sacks per game and only 1 or 2 hits, than no sacks and 8, 10, or 12 hits. That's just asking for trouble.

Spurrier's system assists to a degree by having the QB emphasize quick drops and releases, but that alone cannot be expected to protect him. The interior O-line needs to protect better.

[Funkyalligator]

Indeed we do need some work on our offensive line but with all these guards and OL being released in the next few days we should do just fine picking up some good backups and setting up a good depth chart. I think our OL will do okay this season

[shamaran]

I too, Atlanta, am a realist and look at this line and say, "how the

hell did Ramsey NOT get serioulsy hurt Sat." I mean, just think of the egg all over the face of the FO, if a day after a needless trade of Sage, (at that time), meant the team must now scrounge the waiver wire for another QB, with their Dano-handpicked #1 out because of inept line play. It's a miracle it didn't happen. The kid must be made of rubber!

I have the entire game taped. Yea, Vickers and Jones are bums as guards. I hear some saying that they are adequate as backup tackles. Jones got 3 mill. To be a backup tackle? Great!

The offensive line is filled with large bodies, but as Kim stated they don't block any better than his wife (guards that is). I'm beginning to wonder abour Helton; all those players can't be that bad!? Can they?

[redman]

I'm not yet panicking. I want to see Stai get some work, and see whether we can replace Vickers or Loverne on our roster with a serviceable FA guard who has been cut. As long as our starters are playing "adequately" for now, things should be ok. But again, their primary assignment is keeping the QB upright, and if they fail that then changes must be made.