serious question

[chomerics]

You've crossed a boundry here by telling someone what to think about a subjective issue. It's ok to explain your position on this, and to feel that strongly about it as well, but you've taten Miss U's thread from a how do I stay friends with someone who's lifestyle I don't agree with, to a full blown gay rights dicussion (argument) where you telling us all that we have to believe this and support that or we can't have a gay friend, that's bulloney.

I was pointing out a hypocrisy so she would hopefully look at the situation from a different point of view. I did not say you CAN'T have a gay friend, but that you would not be a TRUE friend if you did not support his or her rights to be happy. You can be "friends" with a person who is gay, not agree with their lifestyle and think they should not be able to have the same rights as you, but then you are not being a true friend. You are basically telling the person that you put your value system above their happiness, and that is not something I believe a true friend would do.

Here, let me put it like this.

Joe is Gay

Mike is Joe's friend

Because Mike is Joe's friend, he should support Joe in his pursuit of happiness

Mike does not support gay rights.

Mike can not support Joe's pursuit of happiness.

There is a contradiction in the logic. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you are against gay rights, then you can not help Joe pursue his happiness. Do you see how the hypocrisy rears up?

In the process you've misunderstood at least what I said, as I assume that you think i'm anti gay rights, which is incorrect. I think that there should be a legal union available that allows for sharing of property, insurance, SSI....... But It should be called something other than Marriage (like cival union). But in the mean time, the law doesn't allow for that, it'll happen sooner or later. So it is very much like my friend who can't smoke pot in public and be "happy".

I never thought you were against gay rights, as I know your views on a lot of positions, and I would have thought you would be for gay rights. I know the law doesn't support it, but supporting the premise that you do not agree with gay rights, and MissU does, and having a gay friend leaves a glaring contradiction in the meld of friendship and ideology.

You're confusing friendship with martyrdom, lighten up a little.

I was trying to use an analogy of a person who had no rights, and show how it related to this case. Maybe slavery was a bit to extreme, but like I said before, sometimes bluntness is a good way to get your point across. In hindsight, you are right though, i probably should have used something like the suffrage movement, but everyone can identify with slavery, not everyone with suffrage.

Thier lifestyle (relationship) is thier private business, which means it's none of my concern, just as my beliefs are my business. And in Miss U's

case that is exactly how it's being handled. I've had plenty of gay friends and aquaintances (and over 100 wealthy clients) and have treated them exactly like any other friend, probably better. These folks are living great lives, not suffering horribly as you stated (very dramatically) and certainly would never ask me to take up there cause (politically or otherwise) for them. I don't look at them as second class citezens, just people who will have to wait awhile for the legal system to resolve thier issues.

I know quite a few gay people as well, as I live in Boston. You can have a casual acquaintance, but the impression I got from reading MissU's initial post is that this was a really close friend, inside an "inner circle" of sorts. I have a group of about 8 friends I've known for a long time, and some of them for over 30 years. I consider this group of friends my "inner circle" and there is nothing in this world I would not do for them barring something illegal. I would stand up and support them no matter what they did, and I would expect the same in return. I was discussing this under the assumption that this person is one of her "inner circle" friends, and personally I see a glaring contradiction.

I did get a bit off track, but I think I laid out a logical path for her to follow. I am not judging her based on her ideology, but trying to give her an understanding of how others think, and what others hold dear. I consider the bond of friendship one of the strongest around, just as close as family to me. Others may not look at friends like that, but then again, I have had the luxzury of having the same group of friends since I was 3 years old. The guys I grew up with are still the guys I hang out with now. There have been a few added and a few dropped from the group wives, lovers, ex-wives etc. have all been part of the group, but the core is still there. We support each other no matter what, and that is how I view friendship. I can not for my life fathom something like this and not supporting my friend in his or her decision, but that is just where I am coming from.

I can only answer this personally. I generally have a "live and let live"

philosophy. So no, I don't run around thinking am I above that person or below that person. So it isn't a "superiority" thing with me.

Same here, but the superiority comes from thinking that someone should not have the same rights as you. I don't agree with the law, so I do not think I am superior to another person because of who they chose to be in love with. It makes me no more of a man to love a woman then it does to love a man.

How could you have a frienship with a gay person if you couldn't get past thier choice of significant other?? Sacrificing your own ideology for a friend is the abandonment (betrayal) of one's self, not a requirement of friendship. You need to check out a couple books on Co-dependency,

because this is what you're talking now.

Like I said before you are in a dichotomy, and you are right, either your ideology or your friendship will suffer. I mentioned earlier, sometimes you have to suffer to be a true friend. There are many different types of "suffering" and many different levels. One may draw the line at picking somebody up at 3:00am at a bar, while another friend may give a kidney. It is all a personal choice, but to truly be a friend, and this goes for ANY relationships, you need to put the other person before yourself often. It is what makes friendships and relationships work.

Hopefully MissU will take everything discussed here and look at things from a different viewpoint. I am only trying to explain in a civil, and proper manner how and why I think she should re-examine her position on gay rights if she considers him truly a friend.

[Winslowalrob]

Well said Chom.