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One Dollar, your opinion please


scottb

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Oh, I understand, Dollar, I just don't agree. And I think with this simplistic approach you do yourself a disservice.

You've already BEEN strong on one side of the ball for a long time, strong enough to realistically contend. You're assuming that the defense that Dungy turned into one of the best in the league will continue as such now that he's gone. Tampa's assumed that the grass is not only greener on the Gruden side of the fence, but that the grass (pretty nice stuff, really) on the old side will continue to grow it has all along, and you'll be able to visit any time you want.

You've been close for a few years, IMO close enough where a better OC might well have put you over the top. What you've done now is gambled that what you've had for all these years will not only magically continue, but that adding a guy with an offensive reputation (no pun intended) will be the magic bullet you've been looking for to seal the deal.

It ain't about offense OR defense ... it's about both. You don't need to blow up a coaching staff that's held you near the top of the league consistently - and give up a mess of picks to do it. You just don't.

At least I wouldn't.

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Die hard again your speculating.

Fact: Kiffen & entire defensive staff is intact, same system for last 6 years. Kiffen runs the defense.

Do you feel a defense gets better playing against an immaginative offense or a stagnant one?.

Fact: Gruden's offense will make Kiffen work harder - result: defense will learn more offensive looks to & get better.

You can believe what you want, I believe he was well worth it.

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OD,

The fact is the value of the Gruden trade is heavily tilted in the Raiders advantage. The only reason you guys paid so much for Gruden is because after being made to look very foolish in your coaching search, your owners had to panic and get themselves out of the mess they created.

Enter Gruden, who is one of the 50 most beautiful people in the world, but, he is not an elite coach. Parcells, Gibbs, Johnson, Shanahan, Walsh, multiple Super Bowl winners, they are elite coaches. Gruden is Norv Turner with a scowl and without a pass over 10 yards. Ok, that's not fair but you get the point.

Dungy had as much success with Tampa as Gruden had with the Raiders. A straight trade of coaches is one thing. But the cost you paid for your owner's ineptitude in the coaching search makes it a questionable move. It doesn't matter what happens in Oakland with those picks. The ONLY way Gruden can justify the cost is if he becomes an elite coach and winner of multiple titles. The price you pay for those coaches is clear.

Gruden is, like Jeff Fischer, a fine coach, but, Gruden has had more average years than he's had great ones. That he's young and may coach for another 10 years gives you a chance to overcome the loss of picks but only if Gruden becomes something he's not yet been.

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Dollar - I suppose you can't evaluate a simple trade straightup... 1 good head coach for 4-5 starting calibre players. I'm sorry if you have difficulty with it. Seems you're senilty has come prematurely.

$8 million can be used as signing bonuses. I'm sure you can understand that. No, it doesn't directly affect the cap. But it's money that can't be used on players or other coaches for that matter because it's spent. It's gone. It was spent on acquiring the rights to a head coach... it didn't include his salary. Most teams don't usually throw $8 million away just for the rights to sign a coach.

Believe it or not... most teams sign the coaches for free. ONly the desperate teams have to compensate. Teams trying to save face from stupid mistakes...

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You see,

everyone has thier opinion on this. :)

And thats all it is.

Bottom line is fans here in Tampa are ecstatic and LOVE Gruden. No one talks about if he was worth it, most are thinking it's a blessing that he turned up being our coach. You guys in other cities read it differently. Believe me no one talks about the compensation but BB members in discussions like this.

(Mexican standoff continues....) :D

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Originally posted by Art

That he's young and may coach for another 10 years gives you a chance to overcome the loss of picks but only if Gruden becomes something he's not yet been.

Exactly. Thank you Art. The Bucs are counting on Gruden to produce where Dungy couldn't. But you have 2 coaches with identical resumes... and yet somehow... Gruden gets the benefit of the doubt. Why the optimism?

Because they're Bucs fans. It's a new face. They needed a playmaker 2 years ago... so they got Keyshawn. That wasn't it. They needed a QB... so the got Brad Johnson. That wasn't it. They need to revamp the offense... so they have a revolving door of Offensive Coordinators. That wasn't it.

Now they trade for a coach with equal creditentials as the one they fired... and somehow he's supposed to be the missing link? Nah. At least with Keyshawn and Johnson they were upgrading their respective positions.... :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by Die Hard

Dollar - I suppose you can't evaluate a simple trade straightup... 1 good head coach for 4-5 starting calibre players.

YOU ARE SPECULATING! (can you hear it this time?)

I could just as easily say "1 good head coach for 4-5 draft busts"

Also what makes you think that the Glazers can't STILL sign a player even after giving away 8 million? They are Billionaires, any player they want they get regardless of that 8 million. So again your 5th player garbage speculation is meaningless, it does not Prevent them from signing one just because they gave Gruden 8 million.

Face it and accept your speculation and opinion as it is, I am. Your problem is your trying to prove something to me that has no factual content only opinion and speculation.

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Originally posted by Die Hard

...But you have 2 coaches with identical resumes... and yet somehow... Gruden gets the benefit of the doubt. Why the optimism?

Are you kidding. Do I really have to explain the differences between them and the needs this team had and who ran the defense? Your worse than my 5 yr. old, at least when I explain things to him he doesn't forget everything 5 minutes later.

Why did Snyder fire Shottie? he rallied the team last year to what? like 8 wins in the last 10 or something. Then he fires him , still pays him and spends a kings ransome on a college coach.

Why? because he felt it was needed to make his team a winner right? Glazers did what they felt they needed to get this team to the next level. I applaud them for that. After years with miserly owner like Culverhouse who's idea of a business strategy were to spend as little as possible to try to eke out something in his profit margin, knowing that he could sell an inferior product to a football-starved public I damn well am happy we got owners that want to win.

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Originally posted by One Dollar

Are you kidding. Do I really have to explain the differences between them and the needs this team had and who ran the defense?

Why? because he felt it was needed to make his team a winner right? Glazers did what they felt they needed to get this team to the next level. I applaud them for that. After years with miserly owner like Culverhouse who's idea of a business strategy were to spend as little as possible to try to eke out something in his profit margin, knowing that he could sell an inferior product to a football-starved public I damn well am happy we got owners that want to win.

Understood. Grass is always greener on the other side right? There's a difference between the Bucs and Skins though. We've come off a decade of mediocrity. There.. I said it. We've definitely got LESS to lose by changes coaches than the Bucs. Yet, Spurrier is an UNKNOWN at this point and having NO previous experience in the NFL. He may be as good as Gibbs... he may be as mediocre as Turner/Schotty... or he may flop entirely. Even if Spurrier flops... we haven't fallen that far from where we were to begin with.

With Gruden... you know exactly what you're getting. A white Tony Dungy... with a better offense and a weaker defense. You're going from a good coach... and replacing him with another good coach. One with the same credentials. The Bucs made a change for the sake of change. You were Super Bowl contenders before... and you're not any better off now than where you were before... except you have less draft picks to show for it. NET LOSS.

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Actually, OD, it's a net loss until Gruden surpasses by a huge margin what Dungy did. You don't trade one conference championship appearance for another, plus cash and draft picks and come out ahead.

You may END up ahead, but, today, you're very far behind. The cost of the deal Tampa was forced to make by the bungling ownership group caused the pressure to fall squarely on Gruden to deem whether it was a good conclusion to a bad situation or not.

The cost of the deal for Gruden puts him in the hole and he has to now perform greatly to make up for it. There's no question it was a stupid move to have been forced to make. But, there's equally no question it could wind up being the franchise's best move ever.

Hindsight has that ability to change reality by writing into history another. Until then, you're starting with a lot less on the table than you had and Gruden has to find a way to get that back.

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Still disagree. In Pre- free agency, you have a valid point, but weighing in the current staff and the ability to reload with FA's I don't buy your doom and gloom outlook.

We fans could not stomach another dismall "know every play" offense anymore. The shear excitment and versatility of an attacking offense is worth it already.

It's the fans who go and watch it's us they have to please, and they are doing that. If your team has an exciting season and is entertaining on both sides of the ball but falls short by being beaten in the playoffs by a better team you at least feel you tried your best and can be happy even without winning it all.

When your team is one-sided and plays not-to-lose like Dungy did and gets whooped by any good defense it gets frustrating as a fan. I go to games because I love my team and enjoy the whole experience and want my team to try everything they can to get better and win. That's all I ask, and the Bucs are trying to do that.

Even in the vanilla pre-season it was exciting to look at the offensive formations and not say "well it's Dunn up the middle", or "Alstott is getting the ball" or "it's going to Key on this one".

I actually had no idea what was going to happen with players actually in motions and shifts. It was exciting to me, and that is one reason I'm so happy now.

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Originally posted by One Dollar

We fans could not stomach another dismall "know every play" offense anymore. The shear excitment and versatility of an attacking offense is worth it already.

Ya know... it IS possible to get a new coach or new offensive coordinator without having to give up draft picks and cash don't you? I understand the excitement of a new attacking offense while overlooking the possibility that the defense won't be as stout. I guess. :rolleyes:

But you're message is loud and clear... the Bucs were prepared for a coaching change at any price... even if it came at the expense of one-sided trades by any NFL standards... because Bucs fans are happy now. The last time Bucs fans were this happy was when they signed Brad Johnson. Then Keyshawn Johnson before that.

Change for the sake of change. New faces. Grass is always greener on the other side. yada yada yada

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Die-Hard,

Dungy went through THREE offensive coordinators in his 6 years here. We never got above 21st on offense. In fact every year our offense looked the same REGARDLESS of the offensive personnel.

What was the common denomenator? Shouldn't be hard to figure out it was Dungy.

And you keep saying Dungy and Gruden are the same? How so?

In Grudens 4 years after inheriting a 4-12 team went 8-8 in his first year, won division titles his last two years in a row went 2-2 in the playoffs and has an overall record of 40-28.

In Dungy's 6 years as coach he inherited a 7-9 team went 6-10 in his first year, won 1 division title and went 2-4 in the playoffs and has an overall record of 56-48

It may be close but Gruden has done better in a shorter period but what is key is he has done well with offense which is the fix we needed, not another Dungy puppet at OC.

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Bufford read the second post on page one. No, we couldn't have had him with any assurance. And just whatr were we supposed to do this year while we wait? Don't say hire a one year coach, because that is just wrong in all aspects, no matter how you spin it.

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Prior to those coaches taking over their respective teams... the Bucs may have finished 7-9 the year before... but they were not a .500 team. Dungy took over a horrible franchise and made them respectable.

The Raiders were coming off a miserable 4-12 season... but they weren't a 4-12 franchise. They just had a bad year but the talent was there. They were a .500 franchise.

And I have more respect for what Dungy's done in the black and blue division than I do for Gruden in the putrid AFC West (post-Elway).

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Dungy never made the offense respectable, only the defense and

Some people say Wyche set the defense up for Dungy with Sapp, Brooks, Lynch & Ahanatu so it works both ways.

This thread can go on and on since every opinion has a counter-opinion.

(mexican standoff still in effect) :cool:

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Yeah.I am ok.....and didn't take it as a slur. Being from Texas...you would think I would have heard this.....but I truly had not....so I had to know.

Only thing I could relate to was the Alamo.....and the Mexicans kicked butt. Just a bit confused.

Thanks for telling me. As an educator, you would think I would have thought to look it up in the dictionary. DUH....sorry!!

;)

Blondie

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