Interesting Article That Reminded Me of Our GM Situation

[The Sisko]

I was looking around for F.A. info and came across an article that sounded so similar that it really gave me the creeps. Tell me, who does the following sound like?

One of the most interesting critiques heard after the Steve Mariucci firing came from another NFL general manager, who summed up the consistent failures of Detroit Lions president Matt Millen. His take? Millen simply never learned how to do his job.

"(Millen) makes you understand why most general managers are groomed for the position," he said. "You can't walk in and think it's just talent evaluation and (coaches) who have a thick playbook and great speeches. Having talent doesn't solve everything. (Neither does) having a good coach. They have to be right for each other, and good general managers have a feel for that kind of thing. … Matt Millen makes mistakes that an understudy for a general manager position would make – which is why that guy is an assistant GM or pro personnel director or whatever a team wants to call them. That's why guys like that aren't in charge, because they don't have the experience of knowing how an entire organization functions and builds – with coaching, talent, salary cap and everything else.

"Almost every general manager worth his salt learned the position from someone who was there first, and (Millen) never did that. Things like, watching other people (mess) up. You study how to do it and take all the steps. No (kidding), it's just like grooming a CEO in the business world. Go look at (Seahawks president) Tim Ruskell or (Cleveland Browns general manager) Phil Savage. Those will be good (general manager) hires because they were prepared for the job under intelligent people who taught them little things, too. There is nuance in this job, you know? A lot of things relative to composing rosters with leaders and coaches who fit the teams. I don't know everything about Matt, but I know he's never gotten that long-term guidance, other than talking to his friends around the league."

Could it be, ohhhh I don't know, CERRATO??

Somehow, I think our poor management has been responsible for a lot of our woes over the past 12 years. I for one am glad Gibbs is righting the ship and I hope he sends Cerrato packing in favor of a real bona-fide GM when he decides to step down from coaching.

Oh BTW Art, what do you think of your hypothesis that it was Brady in N.E. and not the management and coaching?

[jwebst1]

Cerato is a yes-sir MORON...... I've said this before on here, so I'm not trying to stir $hit up now, but I blame him and Snyder directly for our woes since our playoff year in 99...

Speaking of that bug-eyed freak, did anyone hear him on Elliott this morning? Kind of reminded me of Family Guy last Sunday, when the Dad finds out that he's retarded.

[capitalpunishment]

Matt Millon is absolute moron. He was a terrible commentator and now he is a terrible GM. If the Lions knew what was good for them they would have fired him instead of Mariucci.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Half of those "last 12 years" the Skins had a GM...and the Skins draft and FA record was worse with a GM than it has been under Cerrato. The only thing that has been worse under Cerrato has been the revolving door at the coaching position...and that alone is 90% of the reason the Skins haven't done better once Snyder took over. New coaches, new offensive and defensive schemes, new player personnel to play within those new schemes and for those new coaches...and it was practically every year.

We have stability now...I think we can let go of the Cerrato hate for awhile.

[TheLongshot]

Could it be, ohhhh I don't know, CERRATO??

Not at all. Ceratto actually had experience before arriving here in SF. His track record is nowhere near as bad as Millens, particularly since Ceratto is not responsible for the head coaches Danny selected.

Coaching turnover is the biggest reason why we have struggled the past few years, not Ceratto.

Jason

[MRMADD]

Anyone who's listened to Cerrato speak knows he got his job purely as a Snyder yes-man.

His track record with the Skins is laughable. He's never produced a team capable of winning more than half of their games. His excuses -- coaching turnover, his lack of real decision-making authority -- are a joke.

This team is built thin. A handful of "star" players eat up the majority of the salary cap, so there's no depth and very few role players. When a decent roleplayer emerges, he immediately leaves because the Skins can't afford mid-salary players. Whether or not you like Pierce, he's the kind of young player who could be locked up for a 6 year $26 million dollar contract ($5m in bonus + $3m roster bonus in 06). That's peanuts for a starter, but the Skins couldn't afford it.

How can the Skins improve next year? They need real help at WR. They need a QB. They need to replace Dockery. They need a pass rushing end. They need another DB. They might need a kicker and punter. They have very little cap room, so they might be able to add one of those, but certainly not all.

This team is built to lose. Until they jettison some of those fat contracts and build a roster with some depth, they are paper thin. Imagine if Moss, Samuels, Cooley or Jansen gets injured. What then? The drop off from those guys to their backups is precipitous. Blame Cerrato.

[The Sisko]

When Cerrato left S.F. the locals didn't seem to miss him much. Look here and here for the quotes below.

...Vinny Cerrato, who had undermined the San Francisco 49ers as their player personnel director. The salary cap gets the blame for most of the 49ers’ problems, but an equal problem was their poor drafting during Cerrato’s time, highlighted (lowlighted?) by his push for QB Jim Druckenmiller in the first round of the 1997 draft. The slow-moving and slow-thinking Druckenmiller was woefully unsuited for the 49ers’ offensive system and was dumped by the team before the start of the ’99 season.

The writer above lost some credibility for extolling the virtues of Casserly as our GM but hey, nobody's right about everything. Speaking of which Califan007, Casserly doesn't count for the purposes of this discussion because I specifically said a "competant GM". Casserly does not fit that description. To wit

Cerrato's scouting helped end the 49ers' dynasty. There's no reason to think he's suddenly brilliant in Washington.

However, I think it's instructive to look at his history in S.F.(1995-1998) Busts he managed to bring into the league include the aforementioned Druckenmiller, R.W. McQuarters, and JJ Stokes (1st round). Notable good picks he made included L. Schulters (4th) and T.O. (3rd) Most of his late round picks didn't pan out.

Then of course there's the whole S.F. salary cap mess. However, to be fair, I'm not sure how much, if at all his job description included responsibility for this. Either way, much of this draft history sounds eerily familiar as a Skins fan since it's been replayed with our team.

My take on Cerrato is that it was just one of those Govt. job type things. Snyder hired him as an experienced owner due to the Forty Whiner "mystique". Over time, due to his boot licking and brown nosing, Cerrato became a fixture. Enter Gibbs. Gibbs decides to keep Cerrato around for a couple of reasons. First, because he quickly figured out that Cerrato is a "Yes man" extraordinairre and having such a fellow around would avoid the kinds of bitter disagreements he and Beathard had in his first stint with the team. Secondly, I'm sure he felt he might need to tell Snyder "No" a few times and letting Vinny stay was an easy way to allow Snyder to have a "win" on an issue of no consequence.

In short, he stays because he understands the dynamics of the politics of the office moreso than the job itself.

[zoony]

You are correct in the sense that present leadership/ownership in the personnel department never made the QB position a prioirty.

Gibbs has.

And he will be vindicated because of it.

It's not rocket science, everyone. Look around the league year to year and note the good teams.

It's the QB.

Look at the (joke) that is our QB roster since the Norv era. It has been a joke, and so has our record.

At least Casserly landed us Brad Johnson, the only QB to take us to the playoffs.

[tizzod]

I think you all may be in way over your heads, talking about things that you really don't know about.

Yes, it seems like Cerrato is just a glorified coffee-getter, but with Gibbs getting back in the swing of things, if he feels like Vinny is doing a good job, I have to defer to him. I'm just a regular office schmuck, just like the rest of you all I would imagine. Yes, I have played and followed football, intensely, for 27 years, but that doesn't qualify me to make any important decisions for an NFL team.

Yes, it would be nice to get some 60-some year old grizzled GM in here to start telling people no and kicking some ass, but we are already better than last year and are playing meaningful games in December for a change. Enjoy it already. Jeez.

[The Sisko]

At least Casserly landed us Brad Johnson, the only QB to take us to the playoffs.

...at the expense of having the QB position settled long term with Daunte Culpepper instead:doh: That trade accounts for at least two thirds of my reason for calling Casserly incompetant.

Strangely enough, Casserly did at least "get it" about how important the QB is....remember his speech about "not punting" at the QB position? Right idea, wrong way to go about it.

I think you all may be in way over your heads, talking about things that you really don't know about.

Yes, it seems like Cerrato is just a glorified coffee-getter, but with Gibbs getting back in the swing of things, if he feels like Vinny is doing a good job, I have to defer to him. I'm just a regular office schmuck, just like the rest of you all I would imagine. Yes, I have played and followed football, intensely, for 27 years, but that doesn't qualify me to make any important decisions for an NFL team.

Yes, it would be nice to get some 60-some year old grizzled GM in here to start telling people no and kicking some ass, but we are already better than last year and are playing meaningful games in December for a change. Enjoy it already. Jeez.

I agree with you about the meaningful games in December. Sadly, as Skins fans the bar for success has in fact fallen that low.

However, this has little to do with things I don't know about. I gave an analysis of his history of picks based on what we know to be facts. However, my take on what may have happened in the F.O. is just that, my take.

Even so, I came to that conclusion based on Cerrato's lack of success and Gibbs' influence within an organization that had hitherto been run with moderate to heavy influence by Snyder. Therefore, I don't think it is at all unreasonable to think that things MAY HAVE played out as I described.

Finally, try to tell me you've never seen a malleable boob kept around because he/she was convenient for higher ups?

[tizzod]

Finally, try to tell me you've never seen a malleable boob kept around because he/she was convenient for higher ups?

Welp, as much as I hate to apply it to the Skins, I have to say, true dat. :laugh:

Sometimes in a good company or corporation, ass-kissers just get the benefit of the doubt, which does befuddle me, when they are unmasked to be completely incompetent.

I don't think Vinny is incompetent though. Marginal, possibly. But not incompentent.

[The Sisko]

...malleable boobs. That was unintentionally funny:)

[Califan007 The Constipated]

The writer above lost some credibility for extolling the virtues of Casserly as our GM but hey, nobody's right about everything. Speaking of which Califan007, Casserly doesn't count for the purposes of this discussion because I specifically said a "competant GM". Casserly does not fit that description.

The problem, though, is that you mix and match your arguments...first you say "Could it be, ohhhh I don't know, CERRATO??", but then turn right around in the next sentence and say that it's our "poor management has been responsible for a lot of our woes over the past 12 years". You called out Cerrato, but nobody else...you didn't call out Casserly, you didn't call out John Kent Cooke as owner...only Cerrato. Yet you did so by talking about the ineptitude that took place on Casserly/Cooke's watch for six full years before Cerrato even came on board.

Cooke's biggest mistake as owner was sticking with Turner and Casserly for so long...neither of them did anything to deserve a 6 year reign. Snyder's biggest mistake has been swapping coaches like crazy and thinking that Spurrier could make a good NFL caliber coach (but then again, a lot of owners and GMs thought that at the time). Cerrato's contribution to the Skins woes is not as encompassing as you make it out to be in your intial post...and the very real factors that play into the player personnel decisions made under his watch seem to be absent from your analysis.

[TheLongshot]

Yusef,

The problem with your argument is that Ceratto is not the GM. He never was, and never will be here. He basically runs the scouting department and gets the information for the head coaches. He doesn't hire head coaches. He's not the guy who signs players. He's not the primary guy who decides who we draft.

Meanwhile, Millen is all of those things.

Jason

[thinker]

At this point, I think it would be a mistake to lay anything anywhere but at Gibbs' feet. He has total control. I believe that Bulldog first pointed this out - the biggest mistake that Gibbs made was feeling that he had to come in and win right away. From that premise I then look at Parcells. He made almost no changes the first year and used the year to assess his players. Lou Saban is doing the same thing. When Gibbs came in he didn't do that, he quickly did the Brunell, Bailey, Portis, etc. deals resign McCants. etc. And when we still lost we had essentially lost a year. I don't know who to blame for our last draft that included Campbell, White, McCune, Newberry, and Nemo - none of whom have played a significant down this year. Obviously Campbell was not expected to play and could work out well - but that seems like a hideously poor draft when you consider the fact that we had lots of lb's and rb's and now could lose the season because we don't even have a reasonable choice for a # 2 WR, our 3rd and 4th wr's were on the street three weeks ago as was our kick and punt returner. Our punter has been off the street a little longer AND we have ONE dlineman who can consistently get a push - Griffin. You just have to get better value from the draft. Ultimately I guess that's on Gibbs too. Blaming Cerrato is weak because the coaches and the scouts all take part in the evaluation of the talent not just Cerrato and obviously we don't do a very good job.

[TheLongshot]

the biggest mistake that Gibbs made was feeling that he had to come in and win right away.

Sorry, but I don't interpet his moves that way.

From that premise I then look at Parcells. He made almost no changes the first year and used the year to assess his players. Lou Saban is doing the same thing.

Parcells inherited a better team, talentwise. Considering that when Gibbs arrived here, we had had 4 years with 3 different head coaches, it shouldn't surprise you that we were as much of a mess as we were.

When Gibbs came in he didn't do that, he quickly did the Brunell, Bailey, Portis, etc. deals resign McCants. etc. And when we still lost we had essentially lost a year.

Don't know why you are including McCants, since that supports your argument. (keeping guys)

Let's go over this again. Bailey was gone. There was nothing we could have done about that. Resigning him at that huge number was not really an option. The cubbord was bare as far as RBs went. The only real option was Betts, and he had a history of injuries. At QB, you have an uncertain guy in Ramsey, and a career journeyman in Hasslebeck. You can't really blame Gibbs for wanting to upgrade those positions. Yes, he probably overpaid, but I don't regret either move, since they were both the best moves at the time.

I don't know who to blame for our last draft that included Campbell, White, McCune, Newberry, and Nemo - none of whom have played a significant down this year.

You know what? Guys from the 4th round down are guys you don't really want starting in their first year, unless they were true steals. Because, if they are starting, you really don't have good talent. It is all about building for the future, not now.

Considering that the cubboard was pretty bare when Gibbs got here, I think he's done fairly well.

Obviously Campbell was not expected to play and could work out well - but that seems like a hideously poor draft when you consider the fact that we had lots of lb's and rb's and now could lose the season because we don't even have a reasonable choice for a # 2 WR, our 3rd and 4th wr's were on the street three weeks ago as was our kick and punt returner.

We were pretty good at WR before the injuries, considering that this team barely plays 2WRs in the offense. No one can predict injuries, and you are always going to be thin at some positions.

The only problem I have with our draft is the lack of D-linemen, but you can't solve all problems overnight, and I expect that that will be addressed in the offseason.

Jason

[The Sisko]

Good points Califan007 and Thinker. Regarding Cerrato not being entirely at fault, I've made reference to John Cooke and Casserly's part in our ineptitude before. However, neither of those guys are around NOW and can't be blamed for anything having to do with what's gone on recently (for the most part anyway).

While I certainly admit Cerrato isn't the only problem, I contend that as our personnel guy he's a big part of it. Additionally, the other folks that are a part of the problem can't be fired (i.e. Snyder and Gibbs). That was the reason for my comment that I'm hoping Gibbs fires him once he steps down from coaching. Doing so would allow us to not only find a competent personnel guy but also someone to set the future direction of the club, i.e. a GM. I think Cerrato's draft history is enough for us to say "buh bye" to him and move on.

As for Gibbs' drawbacks in the personnel department I agree that's historically not been his strong point. However, with regard to his current performance in that area, I think it's also quite possible that the issues you describe with our last draft are more due to Gibbs' problem with playing rookies. Therefore, for our team there's just going to be a bit of a lag between the time we draft (offensive) guys and the time they start to "give milk" so to speak. I mean, look at how long it took him to start really trusting Cooley last season. I don't agree with it but that's his way.

[TheLongshot]

While I certainly admit Cerrato isn't the only problem, I contend that as our personnel guy he's a big part of it. Additionally, the other folks that are a part of the problem can't be fired (i.e. Snyder and Gibbs). That was the reason for my comment that I'm hoping Gibbs fires him once he steps down from coaching. Doing so would allow us to not only find a competent personnel guy but also someone to set the future direction of the club, i.e. a GM. I think Cerrato's draft history is enough for us to say "buh bye" to him and move on.

What makes you think Gibbs doesn't think Cerrato isn't a competent personnel guy? I've never heard anything bad, even in rumors.

As for Gibbs' drawbacks in the personnel department I agree that's historically not been his strong point. However, with regard to his current performance in that area, I think it's also quite possible that the issues you describe with our last draft are more due to Gibbs' problem with playing rookies. Therefore, for our team there's just going to be a bit of a lag between the time we draft (offensive) guys and the time they start to "give milk" so to speak. I mean, look at how long it took him to start really trusting Cooley last season. I don't agree with it but that's his way.

What you are saying is true for most teams. I don't think anyone likes starting a rookie, especially when you know the guy is going to make some mistakes. Usually, you start a rookie because you don't have anyone better you can put in the position. When you look around the league, that is the truth of things. Ryan Moats is only playing because of all the injuries. Same with Samkon Gato, Kyle Orton, and down the line. 1st rounders are an exception, because they usually have a lot of the skills down, and they have the talent to get away with mistakes. But, even they don't always start on day one. SF didn't open the season with Alex Smith, for example.

Jason

[ThatGuy]

I question whether or not picking Druckenmiller was a Cerrato error. I think the 49ers went into that draft to get a quarterback and Druckenmiller was concensus top one available. The 97 draft was terrible for QBs, with only 2 being picked in the 1st 3 rounds (Druckenmiller and Jake Plummer). The 3rd QB picked was Danny Wuerrfel. I think they just decided to pick a QB in the wrong year. If Druckenmiller was gone they would have taken Plummer.

As for the rest of the typical Cerrato bashing, here's a few names: Lemar Marshall, Ryan Clark, Mike Sellers, Demetric Evans, Cedric Killings. All guys who any team could have had for pennies who Cerrato found and signed and all are valuable roster guys.