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Being in the circles in which I belong, a lot of people are kind of down on Joe Bugel. I'm wondering what you all think? Do you think the Oline problems are due to poor coaching or underachieving talent?

I happen to think it's the former. Joe Bugel has developed solid Olines where ever he's gone and unlike Gibbs he hasn't been away from game for years(That wasn't a shot at Gibbs in anyway, I think he's doing a good job). I look at our line and I see guys not living up to their end of the bargain and it's going to be Bugel that pays for it.

What do you guys think about it?

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I don't think the Oline has performed nearly as bad as everyone thinks.

As a matter of fact, I cannot remember the last time our QB has been under less pressure. And we have a running back on pace for consecutive 1300 yard seasons.

Fact is, we get a few different bounces independent of what the Oline does, we don't have this discussion, as we are 8-3.

........

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Samuels is overrated.

Jansen has been playing with 8 fingers and no thumbs.

Randy Thomas is overrated came here for the paycheck.

Rabach has been ok other than the holding penalty against SD :doh:

Derrick Dockery is a walking meat market.

I think the O-line is just overrated and expensive. Buge's isn't that bad of a coach. Just my opinion.

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Our O-line is disgraceful. I finally resolved to this fact on the final play of the Raiders game when their DE just ran around Jansen without being touched on 4th down. A 3 man rush. They don't open run holes, they merely engage blockers. And the TB game is definetly on them 3-2 is O-Line responsibility. I should be able to take a handoff and get 2 yds. I never see them push a d-line back off the ball.

MAN I'M RIPPING THE TEAM UP TODAY.

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I don't think the Oline has performed nearly as bad as everyone thinks.

As a matter of fact, I cannot remember the last time our QB has been under less pressure. And we have a running back on pace for consecutive 1300 yard seasons.

Fact is, we get a few different bounces independent of what the Oline does, we don't have this discussion, as we are 8-3.

........

Now way man, this O-line desreves to be railed regardless of record.

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I don't think the Oline has performed nearly as bad as everyone thinks.

As a matter of fact, I cannot remember the last time our QB has been under less pressure. And we have a running back on pace for consecutive 1300 yard seasons.

Fact is, we get a few different bounces independent of what the Oline does, we don't have this discussion, as we are 8-3.

........

I disagree with you. Not being able to get short yards because the OL gets little to no push is a problem.
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They are better then last year, but not dominant. I think because of the history of the Hogs, we tend to have unrealistic expectations. The o-line is much like the team right now, getting better, but still somewhat inconsistent. I don't think injecting one player into the unit will make them better, but more so them getting thru this season together, and getting to know where the other will be when they're blocking, etc. If they stay healthy, and all come back next year, I think that'd be a good thing.

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Samuels is overrated.

Jansen has been playing with 8 fingers and no thumbs.

Randy Thomas is overrated came here for the paycheck.

Rabach has been ok other than the holding penalty against SD :doh:

Derrick Dockery is a walking meat market.

I think the O-line is just overrated and expensive. Buge's isn't that bad of a coach. Just my opinion.

To say Thomas came here for the paycheck is pretty ignorant. Not saying you are ignorant, but if you knew Thomas you know he wouldn't do anything for a pay check. He's a passionate passionate player. I wish more players felt like he did regarding games.

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Being in the circles in which I belong, a lot of people are kind of down on Joe Bugel. I'm wondering what you all think? Do you think the Oline problems are due to poor coaching or underachieving talent?

I happen to think it's the former.

I think you meant to say latter.

I love Bugel, but I have doubts about his ability to change and be innovative enough to deal with the constantly evolving defensive schemes and players. His ability to teach and motivate as a coach are phenominal, but he may be too stuck in his ways to take us to the next level. If the players aren't living up to their potential then it is the coach's fault. Sadly, he and Broux have to go. Well maybe not go, but something has got to get better there.

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Bugel seems to love what he has to work with now, and didn't seem to think they needed to make much change in the line the past two offseasons, so...

I don't know either he is losing his touch (either in coaching or evaluation) or he needs another year or so to get better. He's been quoted as saying that these guys are more talented than a lot of what he had the first time around and Bugel unlike Gibbs is not one to just throw out compliments. The o-line did better agasint San Diego than they have in the other games, except for the penalties and not really getting Portis much room. (though they have been a lot better at run blocking most of the year)

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It's hard to tell - Bugel seems like a great coach but there is not doubt that this line is underachieving as a unit. It's really disappointing that they looked so good in preseason - anyone remember how huge the running lanes were? What happened?

Ultimately though, it's the coaches responsibility to fire his guys up, make them overachieve, and make changes when necessary. So I think that until these guys overachieve, you have to blame Bugel.

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Wanna know how ridiculously our o-line underperforms and how a great coach can make a difference? As I've said before:

Clinton Portis, in Year 2 of a Joe Bugel orchestrated o-line/rushing attack, has had an uneven year despite some improvements over last year. Even then, he is running behind an o-line comprised entirely of high 1st day picks, and minus Dockery, playing in big-money contracts:

Samuels 1st round 3rd overall 2000

Dockery 3rd round 81st overall 2003

Rabach 3rd round 92nd overall 2001

Thomas 2nd round 57th overall 1999 by Jets

Jansen 2nd round 37th overall1999.

Clinton Portis

Year Team G GS Att Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ FD

2004 Washington Redskins 15 15 343 1315 3.8 64 5 5 65

2005 Washington Redskins 11 11 222 943 4.2 41 5 3 44

Wow, all that money and talent and we can't pick up a 3rd and short in the 4th Quarter to save our life --- well, unless we hold. :mad:

Now as I mentioned elsewhere, let's look at how Warrick Dunn is doing behind an o-line coached by the guy we should've hired, Alex Gibbs, formerly of Denver, the man who designed the scheme in which Portis thrived.

In Year 2 of running behind an Alex Gibbs orchestrated o-line/rushing attack:

Dunn is having a career year, with 5 games left he has either surpassed or is about to surpass his totals from all last season, and all this behind a line that, minus 1 man, nobody can name and nobody wanted coming out of college

LT Kevin Shaffer:7th Round 244th overall 2002

LG Matt Lehr: 5th Round 137th overall by Dallas in 2001

C Tod McClure: 7th Round 237th overall 1999

RG Kynan Forney:7th Round 219th overall 2001

RT Todd Wiener: 2nd Round 47th overall 1998 by Seattle, signed with ATL in 2002

Warrick Dunn

Year Team G GS Att Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ D

2004 Atlanta Falcons 16 16 265 1106 4.2 60 9 5 46

2005 Atlanta Falcons 11 11 212 1094 5.2 65 3 8 54

Look what Alex Gibbs has done with , a 5th rounder and three 7th rounders! All of them blocking for a guy who's 30 and was widely derided as overpaid when he signed with the Falcons?

Wanna guess how much Falcons o-line gets paid? I have no idea, but I'm assuming that Samuels' bloated contract alone probably dwarfs the entire Atlanta o-line.

What a difference it makes when you have a player executing a scheme that is perfect for him designed by the man who has perfected it, working with minimal talent, and I mean bare-bottom talent. If you put a gun to my head, I could not name anyone on the Falcons o-line without looking it up, yet we all see the results every week and we all see that they're are a monstrously cohesive unit that gets the job done and creates huge holes for Dunn, who's putting up numbers that Portis used to when he played---uh--for Alex Gibbs.

It's simplay amazing the results and level of production that Alex Gibbs has gotten out of that no-name draft-scrapheap unit of 7th round rejects known as the Falcons o-line and by contrast, the mediocre and sometimes pitiful performance of our highly over-rated group of overpaid softies, the uh ---dirtbags.

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Means the same thing. I said former because that's what I meant =)

You gave these two choices: (poor coaching-former) OR (underachieving talent-latter)

You claimed former, then talked about the line not living up to the bargin.

I just can't let a fellow fan walk off mistaken. =) Great Post!

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I don't think the Oline has performed nearly as bad as everyone thinks.

As a matter of fact, I cannot remember the last time our QB has been under less pressure. And we have a running back on pace for consecutive 1300 yard seasons.

Fact is, we get a few different bounces independent of what the Oline does, we don't have this discussion, as we are 8-3.

........

your 100% correct!

the line has had moments where they've looked bad, overall been solid.. not great... but far from bad.

Randy Thomas is at pro-bowl level, Dockery has improved leaps and bounds this season.

Samuels and Jansen haven't lived up to their hype so far... but who can? They have been solid. Jansen is coming off the injury and then the thumbs. Samuels playing in pain.

Rabach is a huge improvement at center he's the best one we haved had in many years.

Against the best sacking team in the NFL... we gave up 1 sack. Against the #1 rushing defense the Skins rushed for a combined 100 yards. Did anyone see the hole Rock had on his TD run? Against the #1 Defense a couple weeks ago, Portis ran for 144, and had over 80 yards against the Raiders in the first half.... but only 5 carries the second half.

only one game has the OL been dominated, against the Giants. The rest of the season they have outplayed the other teams OL in every other game.

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To say Thomas came here for the paycheck is pretty ignorant. Not saying you are ignorant, but if you knew Thomas you know he wouldn't do anything for a pay check. He's a passionate passionate player. I wish more players felt like he did regarding games.

I said that about Thomas because at the time he signed with the Skins the Jets had a promising future with Pennington making a sudden impact. He wasn't even making 500,000 at the time and all of a sudden he gets a 7 million dollar signing bonus. Not saying he's not a passionate player and doesn't want to win, but I thought he was over paid and couldn't refuse a signing bonus like that. It's one thing to feel passionate about the game, but it's another thing to produce when you're on the field. Do I like his energy and the fact that he takes losing hard? YES. Do I think his eyes lit up when Dan the snake Snyder threw the millions at him and is underachieving? YES.

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O-line play is kinda like farting, no one notices if you don't fart, but as soon as you do, everyone turns...

The Skins offense are sixth in TOP, and 11th from the bottom in penalties, 8th in 3rd down conversion rate, and given up 28 sacks so far. They're improving, and it does start with the o-line. Blaming one coach for all the problems, or even one player, or one stat really isn't gonna save the Skins. Instead the unit sticking together and getting better will improve them season and season out.

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Being in the circles in which I belong, a lot of people are kind of down on Joe Bugel. I'm wondering what you all think? Do you think the Oline problems are due to poor coaching or underachieving talent?

I happen to think it's the former. Joe Bugel has developed solid Olines where ever he's gone and unlike Gibbs he hasn't been away from game for years(That wasn't a shot at Gibbs in anyway, I think he's doing a good job). I look at our line and I see guys not living up to their end of the bargain and it's going to be Bugel that pays for it.

What do you guys think about it?

well my sig says what i think about bugel but its more due to his lack of accountability. i'm torn as to whether or not he's a good coach. pass blocking we aren't that bad. pass rushers get to the qb b/c that's what they do. i can't expect them to be stopped for 60 minutes/game. the running game is where i have the problem. i think bugel needs to realize he was working with some special talent back in the 80s and he's going to have to cater to the talent he has now. he HAS to take some of the blame for the lack of explosiveness portis is producing in this offense.

also i disagree with bugel's sucess without gibbs. i don't follow bugel's career closely but i doubt he's stayed longer than 3 years as a coach in any capacity. not saying he sucks, but it also means he was working with some special players when he was with gibbs back in the day.

here's his head coaching record:

+--------------+----------+

| Reg. Season | Playoffs |

+----------+--------------+----------+

| Year TM | W L T | W L |

+----------+--------------+----------+

| 1990 pho | 5 11 0 | 0 0 |<---~12th running game

| 1991 pho | 4 12 0 | 0 0 |<---~26th running game

| 1992 pho | 4 12 0 | 0 0 |<---~25th running game

| 1993 pho | 7 9 0 | 0 0 |<----~9th running game

| 1997 oak | 4 12 0 | 0 0 |<----~23rd running game

+----------+--------------+----------+

| TOTALS | 24 56 0 | 0 0 |<----NOT TOO GOOD

not the best running teams but he showed some improvement with the cardinals.

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your 100% correct!

the line has had moments where they've looked bad, overall been solid.. not great... but far from bad.

Randy Thomas is at pro-bowl level, Dockery has improved leaps and bounds this season.

Samuels and Jansen haven't lived up to their hype so far... but who can? They have been solid. Jansen is coming off the injury and then the thumbs. Samuels playing in pain.

Rabach is a huge improvement at center he's the best one we haved had in many years.

Against the best sacking team in the NFL... we gave up 1 sack. Against the #1 rushing defense the Skins rushed for a combined 100 yards. Did anyone see the hole Rock had on his TD run? Against the #1 Defense a couple weeks ago, Portis ran for 144, and had over 80 yards against the Raiders in the first half.... but only 5 carries the second half.

only one game has the OL been dominated, against the Giants. The rest of the season they have outplayed the other teams OL in every other game.

Well then why is Brunell running around for his life the last few games, except for the chargers game (where he actually did have a lot of time, but didn't seem to realize it, on quite a few bad plays). And why couldn't Portis get any room to run very far against the Chargers?

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Wanna know how ridiculously our o-line underperforms and how a great coach can make a difference?

Clinton Portis

Year Team G GS Att Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ FD

2004 Washington Redskins 15 15 343 1315 3.8 64 5 5 65

2005 Washington Redskins 11 11 222 943 4.2 41 5 3 44

In Year 2 of running behind an Alex Gibbs orchestrated o-line/rushing attack:

Dunn is having a career year, with 5 games left he has either surpassed or is about to surpass his totals from all last season

Warrick Dunn

Year Team G GS Att Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ D

2004 Atlanta Falcons 16 16 265 1106 4.2 60 9 5 46

2005 Atlanta Falcons 11 11 212 1094 5.2 65 3 8 54

I'm just checking to make sure that the difference of 151 yards is by your definition the difference between a career year for WD and a total disaster for CP. Seems like they are closer than you think...

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