East Asia allies doubt U.S. could win war with China

[Prosperity]

Of course we could. It would require using the weapons nobody wants to use, but we could easily (in a military aspect) defeat them and occupy the land.

occupy? maybe you can occupy the smoldering remains but if there is a China left then the US military could not occupy it, there are not enough men.

[Sarge]

But why does Asia think we are so weak?

[Prosperity]

"Asia" doesn't it is a politician from Japan that is no doubt talking about "economic containment" for political reason.

[stevenaa]

But why does Asia think we are so weak?

If they do think we are weak, it is in regards to protecting them militarily from China. In that they are most likely correct. It isn't the military that is weak, it is the will of the American public fueled by the left that can't stomach the perils of war. They'll say they only speak out against "unjust" wars, but the reality is that they won't find any war just.

[redman]

In all honesty, it depends a bit on what we're fighting for.

If we were fighting with the goal in any way involving occupation of the Chinese mainland (which is pretty unthinkable), I'd be very concerned about our chances.

Virtually anything else, though, including defense of Taiwan, and I think our technological and training advantages would carry the day.

[webnarc]

Simply put , in a all out war with China there would be no winner.

Only survivors.

Sad but true.

[DonkeyTeeth]

Ever read "Rise and Fall of the Great Powers"? Wars between superpowers (or empires) are won and lost in the debt markets as much as they are on the battlefield. A militarily aggressive China will lose most of its foreign investment, ability to borrow, and ability to trade as it alienates Western Europe and the rest of Asia. They'd be isolated and near bankrupt before they could shore up any gains their military had made for them.

Unfortunately, its a little scary to imagine how a desparate and bankrupt nuclear power would behave, so lets hope we never end up having to go there.

[redman]

Ever read "Rise and Fall of the Great Powers"? Wars between superpowers (or empires) are won and lost in the debt markets as much as they are on the battlefield. A militarily aggressive China will lose most of its foreign investment, ability to borrow, and ability to trade as it alienates Western Europe and the rest of Asia. They'd be isolated and near bankrupt before they could shore up any gains their military had made for them.

Yeah, but does their leadership believe that?

[Air Force Cane]

Thanks Defeatist Democrats :gang:

[70th Week]

we will meet up with the chinese army in israel according to the bible.its called the battle of armageddon. read Ezekial 36 thru 39.

[Air Force Cane]

I agree that it is not destined that we will have to fight the Chinese militarily.

also, let us not forget that we are strategic allies with the Indian Air Force now, we are allies with Manchuria (Bush was just there last week) and we have Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan on our side all surrounding the PRC.

[Baculus]

I think some of you guys, as well as non-Americans, are underestimating the will of the American people to fight for a cause that they believe in when the time comes. And some of you don't seem to understand: Many Americans have lost the belief in the righteousness of the fight iin Iraq. They do not see the connection between that conflict and the War on Terror. And that isn't their fault by any means. If Americans believe in a fight, they will fight to the bitter end. But Americans have lost any belief in a connection between Iraq and 9-11 - that is why many have lost the desire to continue the conflict there over the long term. More so, more folks are starting to believe they have been duped.

Americans want to fight for the right cause.

I am suprised by some, especially in the military, who do not seem to understand this, when it comes to the American public. Or at least some of the folks on this board do not seem to quit grasp this. Americans just don't want to wage war for no good reason - it is often the nature of government that find reasons that seem less than reasonable. And the American people tend to be more reasonable than not.

[Air Force Cane]

Oh spare me the "righteousness" argument from the left...

was it "righteousness" that had us bail out of Somalia? Out of Vietnam? How about out of Beirut in 1983? After the Khobar Towers in 1996? How about our Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya in 1997?

I guess we were just more righteous in destroying the Spanish at Manila in 1898? How about when we wacked the Mexicans in 1848? Was that more "righteous" of a war?

that is total BS- the American people have fought for much more dubious causes than DEFEATING GLOBAL ISLAMOFASCISM.

And we have given up even when fighting just as virtuous battles. If we had one tenth the spirit of the Union during the Civil War this would be over already.

Unfortunately we have nearly one third of the country on the far left who spend more time fighting President Bush than any of our real enemies...

[Prosperity]

"that is total BS- the American people have fought for much more dubious cause"

:laugh:

I don't disagree, but I thought the whole phrase was funny coming out of someone that is trying to support the war

[Baculus]

What is this "from the left" stuff? Oh yeah - everyone that doesn't agree with the new Political Correct movement - agree with the government and the war!- is a Leftie, right?

Anyway, it is the Right-wing that often uses the "righteousness" argument - that is the ironic thing, Air Foce Cane. Much of the cause in Iraq and the WoT has been framed in the "righteousness" of the war. I am merely using language that has been already framed by those who support the current conflicts.

Also, Air Force Cane, you described actions, such as the Spanish-American war, that was developed by a pretext, and a possibly false pretext. This nation often needs a pretext to become involved in a war - and not because Americans aren't warriors, but, which is the nature of a nation with agrian roots, they are often slow to anger.

One thing that should not always become mixed up - the American people and the wars started, and waged, by the U.S. government (and their non-government allies). They are not always one and the same; warfare is often an extension of our government, and/or the Military-Industrial complex, but not its people.

But, yeah, Americans have both supported wars of dubious causes, as well as wars that have been worthy of the struggle. Many Americans, though, do not see Iraq as being part of the war to "destroy global Islamofascism."

Unfortunately we have nearly one third of the country on the far left who spend more time fighting President Bush than any of our real enemies...

Do you ever frame those who oppose the war as possibly being something other than the "Far Left"? Perhaps there are shades of complexities to this situation other than what you seem to suggest in your post.

[jpillian]

You're absolutely right, Bac. It's ALL of the gutless in America that have subverted the War on Terror.

It's just the Left always seems to make up a preponderence of the gutless.

[Predicto]

"Mr. Ishihara said U.S. ground forces, with the exception of the Marines, are "extremely incompetent" and would be unable to stem a Chinese conventional attack. Indeed, he asserted that China would not hesitate to use nuclear weapons against Asian and American cities—even at the risk of a massive U.S. retaliation."

Both of these statements are baloney. I believe that Mr. Ishihara is full of cr*p, and I do not think he believes a word he says here, nor does any legitimate analyst from any side of the political spectrum.

China does not want to fight us. They want to get rich off of us. This is a society that naturally turns inward, and its leadership has always been cautious. In thousands of years of Chinese history, they have almost never been the invaders, but always the invaded. What would they have to gain by sending "waves and waves" of soldiers to die against an enemy 5,000 miles away across an ocean? Why would they nuke our cities or Japan, knowing that their own families in Beijing and Shanghai and Xian would be toast the next day? Answer: they wouldn't.

If you are talking about moving against Taiwan, the situation is more tricky. To China, Taiwan is part of their country. Imagine if in our Civil War the confederate forces were militarily defeated but retreated to Florida, where they tried to set up their own country protected by the military might of England. Would we put up with that forever? Probably not. Eventually we would have enough and we would go in to get our land back. Someday Taiwan will be part of China again, but I think it will happen through peaceful means, just like Hong Kong.

Anyhow, Mr. Ishihara has some agenda here. I don't know what it is. Maybe he is a nut. But his statements are fulla crap.

[DjTj]

It's not the righteousness of the cause, it's the clarity of the goal.

When the Communists were trying to take over Korea, we met them on the battlefield. When the Communists were trying the same in Vietnam, we were also there. When Afghanistan provided shelter to the man who claimed responsibility for the 9/11 attacks, we leveled their country. When we were told that Saddam had WMD's that could be used against the United States, we toppled his regime.

...when we continued to fight in Vietnam despite the USSR and China reducing aid to the North Vietnamese, we started to waver. When we attacked Milosevic to stop a genocide, Clinton was accused of wagging the dog. When we went into Somalia to stop humanitarian abuses, the public was reluctant. When Saddam was already in custody and the army's role became one of nation building, a growing percentage of the public began to question our presence.

It's not the righteousness of the goal, it's the clarity. If we get ourselves into a war, we're going to win it. We'll get the ****s that attacked Pearl Harbor, we'll fight the commies, and we'll capture Saddam Hussein.

These aren't the first countries to underestimate the United States. Japan found out exactly what we were about after they attacked Pearl Harbor. Osama clearly underestimated our response to 9/11. Saddam underestimated how long he could pretend to have WMD's. Qadhafi got the message. If China wants to make the United States its enemy, it'll find out exactly what kind of resolve we have.

[CurseReversed]

I am suprised by some, especially in the military, who do not seem to understand this, when it comes to the American public. Or at least some of the folks on this board do not seem to quit grasp this. Americans just don't want to wage war for no good reason - it is often the nature of government that find reasons that seem less than reasonable. And the American people tend to be more reasonable than not.

Thats the problem, usually when there is a "good" reason it means we have already been hit and hit hard. It has happend repeatedly throughout history wars and battles that make iraq look tiny have been results of neglect and inaction. The future lives saved from a democratic iraq possibly spreading into the ME is more then worth the price we are paying, even with a chance of failure. We could be getting 6-1 odds on success in iraq and it would still be worthwile investment in my eyes.

Thankfully I believe our odds are much better.

Lets hope the Iraqis are ready

[Thiebear]

Notice how almost all of the military types are getting a case of the ass..

I guess if you keep doggin them even they can get angry..

who'da'thunk'it.

Support a soldier: Send one a phone card.

https://thor.aafes.com/scs/default.aspx

If you hate the President:

If you hate the War:

If you hate the path:

Send one anyway or your a lefty pinko

[heyholetsgogrant]

I'm Just afraid of this..all it takes is a flip of a switch..

[Sarge]

I am suprised by some, especially in the military, who do not seem to understand this, when it comes to the American public. Or at least some of the folks on this board do not seem to quit grasp this. Americans just don't want to wage war for no good reason - it is often the nature of government that find reasons that seem less than reasonable. And the American people tend to be more reasonable than not.

IT's not that we don't understand it, it's just that we have very little faith in the will of the American public in general t hang in there when the going gets tough.

For example, we are the ones on the ground over there, and we see a completely different Iraq that is portrayed on TV here in the states. But when we do speak up, there's people like Chom who are there with some ten page article written by someone who has never been shot at to tell us we're wrong, or that we're "neo-con" knuckle draggers, and then add the obligatory "But we support the troops" to make them selves look good or be PC. (I'm not singling you out Chom ol buddy. You're just the first to come to mind)

Whether you like the war or not, you support your country and troops and wish for victory. Unfortunately, there are entirely too many people wishing the opposite, and I would submit that if a leftist like clinton were in charge right now, this war would be portrayed in a completrely differnet fashion. It would be a war for good, or to help a defenseless people, ala Bosnia. But since all the hippy leftist hate Bush so much, it's easy to bash his policies, and that means the war effort as well.

I also submit that maybe the Japanese, Tawainese and others along the Pacific Rim watch CNN/ABC/MSNBC/CBS etc and conclude that we are a nation of weak willed hedonist. In some cases they aren't far off.

And you think CNN is bad here? Travel a little and watch "CNN World" and that Bucktoothed British jackass that is their main anchorman. You talk about America Bashing.

Maybe the Asians have seen a few too war many protests, seen a few too many Michael Moores and Dan Rathers, seen a few too many Kennedy's making anti-war speeches.

And last but not least, maybe they've seen us prosecute this war in a half assed manner. THe military they should be afraid of is the one that took down the taliban inside of a month, when the Soviets couldn't do it in ten years. THe military they should be afraid of is the one that showed up in Jan of 91 and took out Hussains military inside a month, or who ten years later again took out Hussains military with only three divisions inside of a month.

It would be a huge mistake for the Chinese to think that they could take us. But that's what we get when we appear and/or show weakness. THis article is a great example of why it is so dangerous to appear weak to anyone. ANd right now, the American public in general appears weak and non-commital, thanks to Dan Rather and his ilk.

Conversely, had we flattened Falluja completely when they got out of line, it would have sent a message to both the terrorists and the rest of the world, don't **** with us.

But go ahead, keep on with the war protests, keep on bashing Bush and publishing poll numbers everyday of the year saying we don't support the war, don't support the direction the country is going in, etc, etc.

It's all being watched

[NavyDave]

They doubt us just like the followers of Osama has faith in the words he spoke in an interview where he said that the americans are paper tigers and don't have the will to follow thru, you punch them in the nose and they run home.

He pointed out Somalia which coincidently we pulled out of when a "respected" Democrat named Mutra told Clinton it was a lost cause.

As far as China the Sleeping Red Dragon being a threat in the future, well not pointing fingers but their missle technology jumped 50 years in the 90's do to the reaching out policies heck we had chinese generals visiting our war colleges to my dismay.

Economically yeah they coukd hurt us.

[Baculus]

I don't agree with everything that Sarge and NavyDave say at all times, but I can respect your opinion. And you're right - a lot is at stake right now. Either way you look down the barrell, it's a tough situation. I really don't know what to say - I don't want our nation to fail. And I am not sure which road may lead to our failure.

It's a real *****, ain't it?

[chomerics]

IT's not that we don't understand it, it's just that we have very little faith in the will of the American public in general t hang in there when the going gets tough.

For example, we are the ones on the ground over there, and we see a completely different Iraq that is portrayed on TV here in the states. But when we do speak up, there's people like Chom who are there with some ten page article written by someone who has never been shot at to tell us we're wrong, or that we're "neo-con" knuckle draggers, and then add the obligatory "But we support the troops" to make them selves look good or be PC. (I'm not singling you out Chom ol buddy. You're just the first to come to mind)

Whether you like the war or not, you support your country and troops and wish for victory. Unfortunately, there are entirely too many people wishing the opposite, and I would submit that if a leftist like clinton were in charge right now, this war would be portrayed in a completrely differnet fashion. It would be a war for good, or to help a defenseless people, ala Bosnia. But since all the hippy leftist hate Bush so much, it's easy to bash his policies, and that means the war effort as well.

I also submit that maybe the Japanese, Tawainese and others along the Pacific Rim watch CNN/ABC/MSNBC/CBS etc and conclude that we are a nation of weak willed hedonist. In some cases they aren't far off.

And you think CNN is bad here? Travel a little and watch "CNN World" and that Bucktoothed British jackass that is their main anchorman. You talk about America Bashing.

Maybe the Asians have seen a few too war many protests, seen a few too many Michael Moores and Dan Rathers, seen a few too many Kennedy's making anti-war speeches.

And last but not least, maybe they've seen us prosecute this war in a half assed manner. THe military they should be afraid of is the one that took down the taliban inside of a month, when the Soviets couldn't do it in ten years. THe military they should be afraid of is the one that showed up in Jan of 91 and took out Hussains military inside a month, or who ten years later again took out Hussains military with only three divisions inside of a month.

It would be a huge mistake for the Chinese to think that they could take us. But that's what we get when we appear and/or show weakness. THis article is a great example of why it is so dangerous to appear weak to anyone. ANd right now, the American public in general appears weak and non-commital, thanks to Dan Rather and his ilk.

Conversely, had we flattened Falluja completely when they got out of line, it would have sent a message to both the terrorists and the rest of the world, don't **** with us.

But go ahead, keep on with the war protests, keep on bashing Bush and publishing poll numbers everyday of the year saying we don't support the war, don't support the direction the country is going in, etc, etc.

It's all being watched

Sarge, I couldn't disagree with you more. You see, if Iraq was currently Afghanistan, then America would be behind the effort, the problem was that America has finally figured out what I have been saying for the past couple of years. Americans aren't stupid. . . we're just slow.

You see, it isn't war that I hate, I know war is an unenviable part of running a government, it's the needless death that I hate. I personally think war should be a last resort when all other means are exhausted. I think war is the hardest decision a president has to make, and this president failed in his judgement. He rushed to war, ignored evidence, and even took troops away from Afghanistan to go after Hussein. Iraq was part of the policy of the Bush administration way way before 9-11, all that did was provide then they means and oppertunity. It is completely sickening to me to actually think that our leaders used all the good will and pride in our country to force this war on us.

I did not agree with Iraq to begin with. . . and I disagreed with them on almost every issue. I wanted more troops throughout the entire ordeal, I wanted them to stop the looting, I wanted them to handle the entire task completely different. They miscalculated monumentally on almost every critical decision that was made in this war, and they continue to make mistakes in this war day agfter day after day.

You see Sarge, Bush, and the Administration has absolutely no one to blame but themselves. They were never upfront with the American people, and they lied to us about what was going on in Iraq from day one. Do you expect people to continue to watch mistake after mistake happen? Each of the mistakes puts a black eye on our country, and looses American lives. This is what Americans hate, not war but complete lack of self reflection. . . unfortunately the party of accountability has lost even that. The last bastion of honor for the right has gone up in smoke as well, and all that is left is a horrible trail of corruption.

I will leave it at that, but there is soooo much more going on right now, and the war is just a minor part of the entire drama.