fansince62 Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 "Go do that in the Tailgate. What's stopping you?" well....almost two years later - you know the answer to that one!!! as for crappy fans - I just find it ironic that someone like you that I know to be an independent thinker is fixated (probably wrong word) on the behavior of others. Abstracting from the fact that there is no empirical data whatsoever to judge whether 10% or 90% of the fanbase fit the description in play (i.e., it's just a wild*** guess).......it represents an effort to define acceptable behavior. moreover, it ignores the obvious - fans will say things they often don't mean when frustrated. no one likes losing - emotions take hold. as for the wierd notion (fantasy?) that there is some mystic "Redskins" ethos that one either does or does not tap into - well I'll leave that to the sociologists and psychologists to work through. I agree that there's a lot of fluff (e.g., cut so and so now). But there is room for comment on how the team is being run, who is playing well and who isn't, whether the coaches are rising to the level of the competition, the long term direction of the team, etc., etc. it doesn't make one a crappy fan to demand better. in fact, I would argue that that characterizes precisely those who really care. acceptance of status quou, at least in my book, has never been a strong motivator either. and I doubt very much that the Skins' players need to "feel the love" as their prime motivator. one would hope that winning the SB, pride in perfromance, and team ethos were motivation enough. the 12th man is just an added bene for these well paid athletes. to me...a crappy fan is one who smells odd! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaderock Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 not no heart, just some inconsistent play by the team. They have heart, remember the Cowboys game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stwasm Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 I really don't think it's a question of heart. It's a matter of a team that, obviously, is re-building and still needs to learn how to win when the money is on the line. We've seen improvement, but we're just not there yet. It also doesn't help that you have an owner who wants to bring in big-named free agents, go for "sexy draft picks" and firing coaches every year instead of filling needs and harvesting the talent you have. We as fans are paying for Snyder's greed and impatience and we're going to see more of this until we get some stability in this franchise. A "real" general manager also would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stwasm Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 hey guys!im shocked about how everyone is taking a 3 pt loss. the raiders are not a crappy team. they were, to me, one of those teams that was a lot better than their record indicated. so we got outplayed, it happens.... Uh, excuse me. But, the Raiders are 24th in the league in total defense, had double the yardage in penalties than rushing and, twice, got the ball inside our 20 only to have to settle for field goals. These are games good, stable teams win. Any knowledgeable football fan would be VERY disheartened with a loss like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Abstracting from the fact that there is no empirical data whatsoever to judge whether 10% or 90% of the fanbase fit the description in play (i.e., it's just a wild*** guess).......it represents an effort to define acceptable behavior. :laugh: You crack me up. Shall I break out my flow charts and spreadsheets breaking down patterns, statistics and methodologies. Holy christ. Leave it for the sociologists and psychotherapists indeed. And when you see yours again.... them him/her I said "HI" :laugh: As someone who has moderated the largest online community (microcosm) for the last 5 years... and have to deal with scope of "people" and "behavioral" issues on a daily issue on some levels you don't even know about.... rather than just being a casual passby who gets to share his Redsins musing at his leisure.... I might not have a doctorate! But I'm probably one of the most experienced persons to make such a "bold" statement of my findings. And if national certification existed... I'd be among the most qualifed. Unfortunately, there isn't. So my statement.... an opinion expressed on a public message board... is what it is. I agree that there's a lot of fluff (e.g., cut so and so now). But there is room for comment on how the team is being run, who is playing well and who isn't, whether the coaches are rising to the level of the competition, the long term direction of the team, etc., etc. it doesn't make one a crappy fan to demand better. in fact, I would argue that that characterizes precisely those who really care. acceptance of status quou, at least in my book, has never been a strong motivator either. and I doubt very much that the Skins' players need to "feel the love" as their prime motivator. one would hope that winning the SB, pride in perfromance, and team ethos were motivation enough. the 12th man is just an added bene for these well paid athletes. Can you please quantify and qualify "fluff"? And while your at it.... can you please qualify "heart" and how it can be measured? :laugh: Perhaps we can devise an instrument that will turn around the Redskins fortunes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 If by "no heart" you mean that the team doesn't "win as often as you'd like".... then I understand you completely.Because, the team does have heart. They just seem to make bad mistakes. But they are mutually exclusive. Of course, if you cannot see that... then that's a problem on your end. And considering the quality of fans here on Extreme.... I can't say I'd go to work to "win one for the fans" if I was a player. 70% of the Redskins fans on here are crappy fans. And crappy fans are usually crappy people and have crappy friends who think and act in similar crappy fashion. This could be a Randy Newman song Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 I agree. I have been much more positive and optimistic this season because I definitely see a better product being put on the field. I also happen to think that our Redskins are better than their record indicates. Brunell is a consumate pro, Portis is a huge team-player, Moss is a bonafide star, and our defense is still awesome, despite having to play on a short field alot.The only bad thing I have to say about the 2005 Washington Redskins (and it's very negative indeed) is that they fumble like pee-wee leaguers. It's pathetic and everyone here knows it's true. These are NFL players, for gosh sakes. Call me a "bad fan" if you like, but even the staunchest of the staunch among us (yes, even you DH ) cannot deny that the RIDICULOUS turnover spree is churning your guts. It embarasses an otherwise VERY respectful squad of players. I find it quite embarrassing as a fan, too. Hold the ball, Redskins. You're making yourselves look bush. Heck- Until you stop fumbling, all you are is "talented bush." Chach, with all the turmoil and tumult within these borders, the single biggest truth is our inability to improve the turnover ratio has finally caught up with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan913 Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 :laugh: You crack me up. Shall I break out my flow charts and spreadsheets breaking down patterns, statistics and methodologies.Holy christ. Leave it for the sociologists and psychotherapists indeed. And when you see yours again.... them him/her I said "HI" :laugh: As someone who has moderated the largest online community (microcosm) for the last 5 years... and have to deal with scope of "people" and "behavioral" issues on a daily issue on some levels you don't even know about.... rather than just being a casual passby who gets to share his Redsins musing at his leisure.... I might not have a doctorate! But I'm probably one of the most experienced persons to make such a "bold" statement of my findings. And if national certification existed... I'd be among the most qualifed. Unfortunately, there isn't. So my statement.... an opinion expressed on a public message board... is what it is. Can you please quantify and qualify "fluff"? And while your at it.... can you please qualify "heart" and how it can be measured? :laugh: Perhaps we can devise an instrument that will turn around the Redskins fortunes. Man someone is sure of themselves today! This is too funny! :laugh: :laugh: People sure do have a short fuse the day after a loss. Can't we all just get along? I mean arguing over who's a better fan is downright childish. I am at this moment ashamed! Guys we're on the same team, remember? :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 What makes a crappy fan? One that pours his heart, and money, into a team that has lost 15 of the past 16 season, and is REALISTIC about things? No, obviously. It's in the subjective reaction of people to how someone defines and then how they communicate their idea of "realistic", obviously. So, even when there's agreement on what is realistic, which is challenging in itself, there is the more substantial factor of how one expresses their concept of realism. Even when most people in the car-pool agree that the traffic sucks, the one who ****es about it in exaggerated, simplistic, personalized, and often vitriolic fashion, for most of time of the commute, is going to be regarded as an undesirable traveling partner. Or at least by adults whose social development are more emotionally normed. Amongst others of his kind, all will be fine<<---My Johnny Cochran . In other words, in the first place, maybe you're (not "you" personally) not even you're right (or "realsitic) about your take, second, even if you are, do you come off frequently as being a loud, self-indulgent, abrasive, negative person (*******) in how you express it? Crappy fans spew crap on their team. Critical fans critique. Venting cheerfully accepted Definitions matter. The dictionary is our friend. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunarluau Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 That was a bad loss, yess, but don't give up yet. We can still bounce back from this. It starts with a win Sunday. G-Men, Dallas still to play us here. We can bounce back from this. Positive energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 That was a bad loss, yess, but don't give up yet. We can still bounce back from this. It starts with a win Sunday. G-Men, Dallas still to play us here. We can bounce back from this. Positive energy. Even when all else is lost, I can live just for the chance to beat Dullass :dallasuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Chach, with all the turmoil and tumult within these borders, the single biggest truth is our inability to improve the turnover ratio has finally caught up with us. Amen, brotha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Let me make it very clear that I am NOT jumping off the Playoff Boat. It is indeed TOO early to panic. Next Monday will be panic day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONTEY Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Let me make it very clear that I am NOT jumping off the Playoff Boat. It is indeed TOO early to panic. Next Monday will be panic day. We lose Sunday I wont panic .There wont be anything to panic about anymore when It comes to a win or a loss that would keep us in the post season. It will be over as for that. I will continue to watch my Skins and hope for a win, no matter who they play. And sit back and remember the days when the burgandy and gold was a team to be reckoned with. :helmet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgiaredskin Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 There are only two games this year that I feel very disappointed with. And you know which ones. The Giants game is the only game I witnessed a possible lack of heart, but moreso I call it a zombie-like state we were possessed by. Yesterday was unexplainable. It is almost like this wonderful team of awesomely talented, energetic & determined players of good character are, at times, bipolar. Which team will show up each week? When should we walk on eggshells and hold our breath? Whatever it is, I pray for the mental, emotional & physical healing of the mental illness that grasped our favorite pastime on October 30th and November 20th. (hey, and if it's a curse of the twenty/thirteiths then there are no more the rest of the year and we will be pleasantly pleased by secure performances from here on out!) :logo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 "As someone who has moderated the largest online community (microcosm) for the last 5 years... and have to deal with scope of "people" and "behavioral" issues on a daily issue on some levels you don't even know about.... rather than just being a casual passby who gets to share his Redsins musing at his leisure.... I might not have a doctorate! But I'm probably one of the most experienced persons to make such a "bold" statement of my findings. And if national certification existed... I'd be among the most qualifed. Unfortunately, there isn't. So my statement.... an opinion expressed on a public message board... is what it is." wow! being a moderator really provides in-depth experience! I'm completely impressed. And you're completely correct - the 20+ years experience I had leading miltitray organizations ranging from a handful to 100s of young men and women don't approach the depth and range of your experiences/knowledge. the time spent managing everything from court appearances to financial issues to health care matters - nahhhhh nothing compared to a website! and the work spent building DoD's networking infrastructure, defining/writing security policies, building systems, writing code, working the theoretical R&D edge, coordinating competing institutional interests, managing budgets....and still finding time to fly tactical aircraft......nothing compared to handholding bruised egos on Extremeskins! Yup....yuou nailed it - your experience runs deeper and is qualitatively superior to, what, 80%-90%(?), of the posters on this board....that's the magic number right?..... best not to dive into the shallow end of the pool......ES is a great site...your efforts are important for the voluntary nature they represent and the service to community they provide......but this site hardly qualifies as leading edge in terms of technology or social psychology.....there are folks out there who have a lot of experience in a wide ranging number fields.....that they chose to visit ES is a credit to the strength of this site......that they might know a thing or two - whether they are "crappy fans" or not - is something that should be interesting to the ES team...."know the customer" sort of thinking..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBig_E Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 I've been a Redskin fan since 1974 and I have to say this team is the worst.....absolutely no heart to win. The bears have a huge heart....they really don't have any big name players on their team, but a hole lot of heart and have proved their critics wrong that they are winners and will have a winning season. Why can't the Redskin Players do the same? The Redskins are loaded with a bunch of big name players....at least on paper it shows it and the big contract some of these players are being payed (they have no heart to win but they do have heart to ask for big time money...thanks to the fans they are able to get big money). The team might as well lose the rest of their games so they can at least get a good draft next year....I do know that most of the players have a heart to lose and they are very good at it, so I'm pretty sure they will accomplish that part of the job. Until next year, Go Redskins 2006.:mad: Feel better now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRMADD Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 This team has a lot more heart than some of the last few years. "No heart" was watching Jeff George get dragged across the field. "No heart" was Bruce Smith. "No heart" was the Spurrier years. These guys have heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9_to_42_td Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Maybe the whole team needs to visit the Wizard of Oz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal2Washington Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 I'll give everybody a heads up, what makes a great fan is undefined. It's a question that by nature warrants an opinionated answer, example, should Lavar be traded. I posted my opinion on page 2 and see the debate has grown to 5 pages of arguing point and counter point. What makes a great fan, because I say I am, that is a correct answer. The fact that there this no scientific data to define what constitutes a great fan everyone that says they are, is. Likewise if I or anyone else feel someone is not a great fan then they are not. In closing everyone that has expressed an opinion on this topic is right. I mean after all what came first the chicken or the egg, or more socially challenging what kills people, guns or the person pointing the gun. Opinionated driven answers are a b!@#$ to debate. :dallasuck :eaglesuck :gaintsuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 fair enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 that's just it... at least to me. We're not talking about great fans vs crappy fans. To me, if you love the team, you are a great fan. How you choose to express your emotions... that has nothing to do with your fandom and every bit to do with you as a person. What we're talking about is crappy people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 that's just it... at least to me. We're not talking about great fans vs crappy fans. To me, if you love the team, you are a great fan. How you choose to express your emotions... that has nothing to do with your fandom and every bit to do with you as a person. What we're talking about is crappy people. Bang, if you're listening, read this whole thread and give us a cartoon. And if you can use my deal about doing "crappy people" like "Short People" {Randy Newman} in the background... . Ok, sorry, didn't mean to try to play director :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 This fanbase is no different than any other in the league. There are those who get angry and demand change... there are those who simply pledge their devotion and blindly accept bad situations. The former are just as bad or good as the latter. However, this is NOT the time to cut and run on our current roster. We are at midstream. You jump off now, you drown. Look at the Vikings. They were ALOT lower in the sh**can than we are right now. They've won 3 straight and are being hailed as heros on ESPN this week. If we had lost to Chicago, Dallas, and Seattle but were now 5-5, we'd all be in HEAVEN right now. well... we're 5-5. How do we want to handle this? I thought we'd be 3-7 at this point. We're NOT. Let's put the SQUASH on San Diego and re-convene next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcarey032 Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 I don't agree that this team doesn't have heart. They have been in every game with the exception of the NY game. Other than that every loss has been very close. So to say that the redskins don't have heart is tough fact to believe. I know it sucks to watch them lose close games. I don't think that I was any madder than after the bucs game. But what can you do???... move on. On the fan issue, I think that there are some fans who blast the skins for every little mis step that they do and when they do something thing great they are praised to the heavens. I don't agree with how to approach it, but I won't question their loyalty. They are the same fans who buy merch. tickets and go to events to support the team. Fans in general have different ways in routing for their own team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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