Allow me to put up a defense for Ramsey.....

[CMonster]

Hi all,

Been lurking for a while, especially since training camp. I am a long time Skins fan and I had to come out of lurk mode to chime in on this one. Not only am I a Skins fan, but I am also a Tulane graduate, and I happen to know a good deal about Pat's college career and about what Pat is like as a person.

Let me preface this by saying that the holdout was completely Ramsey/Sexton's fault.

But Pat Ramsey is a kid from Ruston, Louisiana. Most of you that aren't familiar with the area should realize that half of the households in Ruston have an income of $25,000 or less. Ramsey is a country boy who likes to go fishing in his off time. Going to college in New Orleans was pretty much a move to "the big city".

Now I don't want to make the kid sound like a dumb country-bumpkin. I know some very smart guys who busted a$$ to graduate in four years with the accounting degree, while Pat had the double major and finished in under 4 years. He is a very smart guy.

My honest take on the situation is that Sexton took Ramsey for a ride. Again, Ramsey is smart, but Sexton clearly was calling the shots. Pat is clearly liable here, because he should have told his agent "get it done," but he didn't. And that was his mistake. Not only should he fire his agent for gross incompetance, but for potentially derailing his career. This was one of the dumbest negotiating ploys I've ever seen. And I negotiate contracts as part of my job.

I am willing to bet, that the $3 million signing bonus is more money than anyone from Ruston has ever seen (Ruston is also the hometown of former NFL QB Bert Jones, Ramsey and Bert Jones' son are good friends, fishing buddies, from childhood.)

It's apparent that Sexton was telling Ramsey what to do, and Ramsey figured he better just listen up given the obscene number of "zeros" people were discussing (keep in mind his background). Things got out of hand quickly.

From the recent quotes from Pat after arriving at camp, he was clearly overwhelmed by the situation. From his quotes before and after the holdout, you can tell that he was genuine when he said that he wanted to be a Redskin, play for Spurrier, and that he didn't want to hold out. Sexton did. Ramsey would have been crushed by a trade to the Bears---Louisiana natives don't do well on frozen tundra.

Pat clearly f'ed up here, because he is ultimately responsible. But that was a mistake and he will not make that mistake again. Ramsey has all the tools AND the brain to run Spurrier's offense. Sage Rosenfels has a fraction of the tools and clearly looked pretty good in the offense, and he's really only two weeks ahead of Ramsey.

I'm not asking anyone to forget this ridiculous ordeal. But let's understand this was an agent-driven thing, Pat is a great, great person and the guy everyone said would be Spurrier's ideal QB.

That being said, I am drinking the Spurrier Kool-Aid and loving it!! 38 points!

[SonnyJ]

I hear ya, CMonster. And I'm rooting for the kid.

But, I suspect he's going to receive some rough treatment for a little while. From the fans, the coaches, and his teammates.

The best thing he can do right now is suck it up, keep his chin up, and use this year as a sort of internship. He's got to bust his butt so hard that Spurrier will have no choice but to take notice.

I hope he's the one. We're starved for a big-time QB around here, and, with his signing bonus and draft status, it's best for the Redskins if he's the guy.

[Art]

By all accounts, Ramsey has better arm strength than anyone Spurrier has coached at Florida. I thought about Ramsey watching David Carr against the Giants and the laser he put on to the covered receiver for a touchdown.

In Spurrier's offense that type of throw is not necessary because there is supposed to be a more open receiver. But, having a QB capable of making that throw is a nice thing, and Ramsey has that ability. If he can pick up the offense and run it as smoothly as Spurrier likes, with his additional throwing strength, it will not be hard for Redskin fans to love him.

Sonny is right though. It's going to be a tough early go for him and he'll have to be able to take a bashing from the fans and some teammates and stay strong mentally. If he can do that he can be a success and we'll love him in the end. I hope that is what happens.

[CMonster]

Sonny J and Art,

I agree totally.

One side note: I know that you don't NEED an arm to execute Spurrier's offense. The point here is, Ramsey is Rex Grossman with a better arm. He has the intellect to master Spurrier's plan, and a gun to match. That's why all the analysts said after the Senior Bowl that Ramsey was perfect for Spurrier.

Anyway, I just saw these quotes from CPND Q&A with Ramsey. All of these quotes support what I was saying....

Q: How frustrating was this?

A: It was very frustrating because I'm the type of guy who never missed a workout. I tried to walk the line. It was very frustrating. But at the same time it was the business side of things I never dealt with and inexperienced with. I hired a guy to represent me and he did an excellent job.

Q: Did you think you were headed to Chicago?

A: I had no idea at that point. I called my wife when [agent] Jimmy [sexton] told me about it. She was floored. It was a blow, that was her quote. We didn't know and when he told me it wouldn't be Chicago, we were obviously happy. After that the ball got rolling and they were able to get a deal done.

Q: What did you think about the possibility of going to Chicago?

A: I wanted to play here and I wanted to play for Coach Spurrier and play in this offense. I've gotten to know my teammates and I like those guys a lot. I was going to have to accept whatever I was presented with. At the same time I wanted to play here all along.

Q: Was there any point where you told Jimmy, let's bite the bullet

A: I hired a guy with similar morales that I have. He's a good guy and well-respected. He has 18 years of experience. It wouldn't be smart on my part to trust my instincts when the man has so much experience.

Q: How did Jimmy keep you sane?

A: He's a lot like me. He was back and forth with what was going on. He stayed stable with me telling me where we wanted to be. I told him I trust him.

Q: What issue was the big holdup?

A: From my understanding it was the escalators and my potential earnings if I become a starter. It's an important part of the contract. I don't know anything other than that.

Q: What was your opinion before of NFL holdouts?

A: I can't say that it was a positive opinion. That's the truth. I didn't understand the situation.

[panel]

Just a quick question about Ramsey, I hear all the time about Ramsey's Arm power, but what else does he have to offer? Is he fast, does he run with the ball, is he a pin point passer, does he stay in the pocket? I really don't know too much about him other than he is a smart strong armed QB.

[88Comrade2000]

He's a punk and an IDIOT. He better pray that Sage gets cut and Danny W sucks or else he won't have a future with the Skins.

He's a non-factor. He's not a factor in the QB race and Steve's not going to waste time on him. He'll view Patrick as being reshirted and concentrate on his trio of shane,danny,sage.

If we end up with a roster of Danny,Sage,Patrick and both Danny/Sage leads the Skins to the playoffs-why will we need Ramsey? He'll be traded in 2003.

I'm rooting for Sage and even Danny to be out #1/#2 qb's not only for this season but for the long haul. I'm looking to recoup some of our losses by trading Patrick in 2003. Frankly, I'm upgrading the Skins my prediction of 9-7 to 10-6; with us winning at least a playoff game. I don't see Patrick Ramsey having anything to do with that.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Boy, these quotes from Ramsey are revealing. He sounds terribly naive. I gave him too much credit for smarts, and I thought his business/accounting double major actually meant something.

This guy sounds like a wallflower wife from the 1950s:

It was very frustrating. But at the same time it was the business side of things I never dealt with and inexperienced with. I hired a guy to represent me and he did an excellent job.

About going to Chicago:

I was going to have to accept whatever I was presented with. At the same time I wanted to play here all along.

About his agent:

He has 18 years of experience. It wouldn't be smart on my part to trust my instincts when the man has so much experience..... He stayed stable with me telling me where we wanted to be. I told him I trust him.

About the cause of the impasse:

From my understanding it was the escalators and my potential earnings if I become a starter. It's an important part of the contract. I don't know anything other than that.

I don't know if Ramsey is playing an act here -- playing dumb -- but he sure sounds dumb.

Great. Dumb guy with a cannon. Where have we seen that before in first-round QBs? :doh:

I'm exaggerating, of course. Ramsey isn't Shuler. But he's sure doing a fine impression of him.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

What a hopeless putz.

Compare these quotes from the WP:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54474-2002Aug7.html

Spurrier's take:

Redskins Coach Steve Spurrier said he also was ready to put Tuesday's contentiousness behind him, but indicated that Ramsey is far behind the club's other three quarterbacks and probably won't be ready to contribute much early in the regular season. Spurrier said that the team has begun to give "a little thought" to keeping all three of its other quarterbacks -- Danny Wuerffel, Shane Matthews and Sage Rosenfels -- on the season-opening roster along with Ramsey, rather than releasing one of the three veterans.

"All three of these players here right now are competing for the starting job [and] the second job," Spurrier said. "They're our top three guys right now. But it will be helpful having [Ramsey] here. I think he knows the situation and knows he should have been here earlier, but he wasn't. That's history. We'll make the best of it from here on out. . . . I just don't anticipate him being a factor early in the season."

And here's pancake face's take:

"My opinion is, there's not a lot of damage," he said during an evening news conference. "The veterans here understand the situation. I'm going to come in here and play ball. They know that. I don't think they're going to hold a grudge against me because I'm not going to give them any reason to."

You stupid sh!t. Without playing a down, you just banked FIVE TIMES what Wuerffel and Matthews will make all year long (if they're lucky enough to stay on the roster all year long), and you've ensured that you won't be a factor AT ALL in 2002 -- and you think you haven't given the veterans a reason to hold a grudge?

Give me anybody at QB over this self-absorbed beaten-with-an-ugly-stick sh!t for brains.

Spurrier's got your number, buddy. And it's a flight out of town, someday, somehow.

Spurrier's like us. He likes guys who like to play football more than anything else in the world.

See ya. Good luck with your next team.

[CMonster]

ASF,

You didn't pay attention to the original post...:gus:

Of course he's overwhelmed by multi-million dollar negotiations....he's grew up fishing in swamps and driving old beat up pick-up trucks. He's only 23 years old, and he's never lived outside of Louisiana. It shouldn't be surprising that a big time slick sports agent could take advantage of him. It was further unfortunate that the agent who took advantage of him also did the worst possible job in negotiations.

But that does not mean he is stupid.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by CMonster

You didn't pay attention to the original post...:gus:

Of course he's overwhelmed by multi-million dollar negotiations....he's grew up fishing in swamps and driving old beat up pick-up trucks. He's only 23 years old, and he's never lived outside of Louisiana. It shouldn't be surprising that a big time slick sports agent could take advantage of him. It was further unfortunate that the agent who took advantage of him also did the worst possible job in negotiations.

But that does not mean he is stupid.

There's a fine line between naivete and stupidity.

Stupid: Mike Tyson

Naive: An attractive woman who goes to Mike Tyson's hotel room at three in morning and thinks it's a social call

You see, at some point naivete is also incredible stupidity. I'd rather not have the gang-bang bait be our starting QB.

[Potato Sack]

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "poor kid from Ruston, La." drivel. He would've been happy with anything if, indeed, he was a poor country bumpkin. If he wasn't happy with the offer AND the fact that he was picked in the first round, then he was even greedier than I had at first thought.

That said, Ramsey has a great arm and Spurrier will bring him along. It's just sad that he made his situation worse by holding out. Had he signed in the first place and come to camp, he might be leading the pack right now.

I know this will be settling down, hopefully, by mid-season. But I don't think there are too many vets around the Redskins' lockers that are going to make his life any easier than it should be.

[redman]

The more details I hear about this negotiation, the more I believe that the Redskins were never serious about the Chicago trade and were merely using it as a negotiating ploy to rattle Ramsey and his agent into getting the deal done. Look how fast it got done after the trade was proposed despite the fact that the rookie trade deadline had already passed (extinguishing the Redskins' leverage in that regard) by the time that the contract was signed.

[codeorama]

I honestly don't care. I have no problem with Ramsey. Arrington held out last year. Who cares. If I was a player, I would try to get as much money as I could too. He could be injured tomorrow. And any sucker out there who says different is a liar. Do you take less money on your job?,,,,, I think not.

[redman]

Originally posted by codeorama

Do you take less money on your job?,,,,, I think not.

NO, but then I don't need to learn a playbook either.

[fansince62]

he was a first round pick and a QB to boot. give the kid a break....we're talking 2 weeks out of a potential 15 year career. all the pissing & moaning is ridiculous. as tho an nfl player never held out or negotiated for a better contract. i don't get the stress factor: the kid wasn't going to play much this year anyway. the whole thing with chicago was a ploy. as tho any of us have a clue how his teammates are going to treat him. that's right, they're going to deliberately create friction in the locker room just to spite the guy for holding out two weeks. especially the guys who have held out themselves in the past - they're really going to go after him. and management, yep they invested $9 million just so they can flush it - cuz they're just idiot businessmen.

either he pans out or he doesn't. he's in camp. let hjim have it if his play over the long haul doesn't measure up. otherwise, as the Eagles put it in one of their tunes........."Get Over It!!!"

[Mickalino]

Originally posted by CMonster

Ramsey would have been crushed by a trade to the Bears---Louisiana natives don't do well on frozen tundra.

Does this worry anyone else ? Is he going to fold up when we play those away games in winter conditions ? Or am I reading into this too much ?

[codeorama]

Learning a playbook doesn't have a whole lot to do with it. Ramsey had little chance to start this year anyway. DW and probably SM (we'll see after Sat night) are so far ahead in being comfortable with the offense that Sage and Ramsey are non factors. Next year will be the factor. If Ramsey gets as comfortable with the offense as DW, Ramsey will be the starter because he has so many more tools.

[Art]

Mick,

Terry Bradshaw was a Louisana native and he did pretty well in the hills of Pennsylvania. It's not like these guys are from Tampa or anything .

Ramsey never did have a shot to start here this year. Spurrier's offense requires a QB to know everything inside and out, and then to know every defensive look. Ramsey simply doesn't have that experience and he wouldn't get it at least until having a season to watch and learn.

[Cskin]

To answer the question about Ramsey's skills. He's been touted as being the perfect combination of intelligence/arm strength. No, he wasn't the most mobile QB in the south.... and he got hit quite a bit in the offense at Tulane. It has been said that he's quite durable, but he also weighed something like 240lbs. at Tulane. He's since dropped 20lbs. and said he feels a bit more able to move around in the pocket.

As far as his arm, I posted a conversation with Peyton Manning sometime back. He organizes a QB camp for college players, as well as NFL rookies and alike. He said he had never seen an arm like Ramsey's, that he had really progressed nicely in reading defenses and was very accurate. Off the cuff, Manning indicated that no one wanted to follow Ramsey in drills because his arm made their's look inadequate. That's quite a complement from arguably the best QB in the NFL.

[Dirk Diggler]

Cmonster

I know this guy wants to plead ignorance but from all accounts, he's considered a very wise young man. Wasn't he a finance major at Tulane? Your telling me he couldn't have at least looked at some of the numbers that were being kicked around and expedited the process a little? He could have looked at previous contracts (like Drew Brees) too. I'm not saying the guy should have represented himself, but there's a point when you just have to say "Get it done." He obviously didn't feel very much urgency and you have to question his judgment at this point. Not to mention how badly he really wants to play.

[CMonster]

Dirk,

I hear ya. I too was a Finance major at Tulane. But the first time I sat in on a multi-million dollar negotiation, I nearly $hit my pants.

Meanwhile his agent, the guy supposed to be looking out for his interests, was telling him this was the right thing to do. Again, Pat is mostly guilty of trusting the wrong guy.

I bet that some of the veterans will make sure that Ramsey learns his lesson (constructively).

[MRMADD]

I can't believe anyone is buying Ramsey's "Aww shucks, I'm just a kid from Louisiana who trusted my agent" routine. He following Sexton's advice here too: when all else fails, blame the agent. The agent doesn't play on Sunday.

I'd be willing to bet that Sexton had his office prepare a list of things for Ramsey to say about the holdout, all designed to make Ramsey look like he was not intimately involved in the decision to hold out (he was) and that it was all his agents fault.

Look, EVERY kid who signs a contract with the NFL is inexperienced. Some, like Smoot, say "Get it done" and they get into camp to help the team. All of Ramsey's excuses would apply to any other player drafted -- but lots of them got into camp on time.

I thought the most telling line was that Ramsey and Sexton share the same 'morales'. Sure they do: greed.

<<It was further unfortunate that the agent who took advantage of him also did the worst possible job in negotiations. >> CMonster

Took advantage of him? Please. Ramsey and Sexton held out to make the most money they possibly could. That's a good idea, but if your negotiations damage your relationship with your employer (the coaches) and your customers (the fans), you'd better be getting an awful lot in those negotiations. Ramsey was holding out for what? Even he couldn't say -- "From my understanding it was the escalators and my potential earnings if I become a starter. It's an important part of the contract. I don't know anything other than that. "

That's pathetic. The playing dumb routine is nice and all, but to essentially say "I don't know why I was holding out" is a slap in the face to the fans. Ramsey knew exactly why he was holding out -- he wanted to be paid like the last pick in the first round to HOLD A CLIPBOARD, but he wanted to be paid like a top 10 pick if he actually plays.

I don't think anyone will really bear a grudge by the time he takes the field, but there's nothing wrong with letting him know what a jacka$$ he's been.

[redman]

Originally posted by codeorama

Learning a playbook doesn't have a whole lot to do with it. Ramsey had little chance to start this year anyway. DW and probably SM (we'll see after Sat night) are so far ahead in being comfortable with the offense that Sage and Ramsey are non factors. Next year will be the factor. If Ramsey gets as comfortable with the offense as DW, Ramsey will be the starter because he has so many more tools.

code, you're missing my point.

I don't blame Ramsey for trying to get the most money he can.

I blame him for trying to get the most money he can at the expense of his ability to get into camp, learn a new system with a new coach (who's known for developing QB's), and give himself a shot at starting sometime this season (for a coach who isn't shy about using the hook even on a successful player if a better one is in the wings), and displaying some team leadership in the process.

If he'd done that and ended up starting at some point this year (a possibility that you'll agree declines with each day that Matthews, Wuerffel and Sage gain reps and display more mastery of Spurrier's system) then these hang-ups he had over escalators in years 3, 4 and 5 would seem pretty trivial, wouldn't they? He would have ended up cleaning house in terms of compensation, because QB's who start in the NFL get paid. Period.

[The Sisko]

Ramsey really reminds me of none other than SOS with his "I'm just a naive kid from LA" act. He's smarter than that and he knows it, but that act was the best way to placate the greatest number of fans. I wouldn't be surprised if 'ole ballcoach told him to play it thataway. So far, holdout notwithstanding, I like the kid and I have a good feeling about him.

[rdsknbill]

Considering that the Skins had to get Ramsey's deal done before he was possibly going to be traded to the Bears. Is there still a chance that the Skins will still trade him to someone else? Or will he sit on his arse for a year, and hopefully be ready to start sometime in 2003?

HAIL

Bill